lord_casek Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Venezuelan troops use tear gas on Chavez protesters CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuelan troops used tear gas and water cannons Thursday disperse demonstrators who turned out by the tens of thousands to protest constitutional reforms that would permit President Hugo Chavez to run for re-election indefinitely. ...... http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/01/venezuela.protests.ap/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted November 2, 2007 Author Share Posted November 2, 2007 some more information: Main Changes to the 1999 Constitution Among the most important changes to the 1999 constitution that the President and the National Assembly are the following: * An extension of the presidential term from six to seven years and the elimination of the two-term limit on presidential election. * Voting age lowered from 18 to 16 years * Prohibition of foreign funding of political activity in Venezuela * Gender parity in the setting up of candidates for public office * Guaranteed free university education * Prohibition of discrimination based on sexual orientation * 36-hour workweek * Social security for self-employed * Guaranteed funding for communal councils * Non-independence of the central bank * Toughening of requirements for citizen-initiated referenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 cnn news sureeeee hey, as long as the people chose he will still be the president, it is not undemocratic. plus, venezuela wouldn't be the only country with that in their constitution.(unlimited re-election) the reform is for the best of the regular citizen. the oligarchy of venezuela is inciting violence through their media and paying the almost dead opposition to lead this spoiled youth to act violent. all the tear gas and water cannon it's to control them from wanting to do what once did but 2 days after it got all back to normal, their failed coup. this video shows how they try to set fire to a police truck, yesterday http://www.radiomundial.com.ve/yvke/noticia.php?866 another one about them not knowing what does the reform talks about and their agression, in spanish though, but the images speak for themselves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zqq5SMAxIM and i know we are tired of big governments but this is more than a government . chavez and his gov have 73,4% more or a little less support from all venezuela. the chaos is a result of the panicking elite who will lose their wealth. a quick remembrance is that the miami cubans, the nwo, the latin american oligarchy, israel and the zionists are against chavez and everyday they fight with their dis info. that should let anyone know that it might be because of something. if we all here knew spanish and knew a little of the history of south american politics it would be better to understand. in the mean time, we all going to see what it wont be stopped, which is this beautiful transformation of venezuela that it is also having an impact in the neighboring countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spectr Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 yeah i am not sure about chavez now... dude went the same route as all the rest when he actually had a chance to implement change and show the world that latin america no longer would be controlled by the corporatacracy while maintaining a democracy that would elevate the people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 I didnt see this one coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 the reform is for the best of the regular citizen. the oligarchy of venezuela is inciting violence through their media and paying the almost dead opposition to lead this spoiled youth to act violent. all the tear gas and water cannon it's to control them from wanting to do what once did but 2 days after it got all back to normal, their failed coup. You are a fucking retard. You can’t justify everything imaginable because of a fairly weak coup attempt from years ago. Chavez and his supporters criticizing any coup is hypocritical in the first place, I seem to recall his first stab at power 15 years ago and it wasn’t through elections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 the swearing was unnecessary, you would have not said that in real life, so keep it to yourself. yeah he tried, as the leader, from inside the venezuelan army but it wasn't backed by the CIA with Operation Condor. it was the movement that is victorious today in venezuela(together with the new members who were asleep and found out about his political party and became majority). the achievements of the revolution that doesn't stop should let you know what is going on in venezuela. you just need to look for good real true news and not the media owned by these people who's corruption is being uncovered by this new government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 there has been a great awakening of venezuelans in the last years. they are progressing in their knowledge of who is the enemy. young people from both sexes in their early 20s with knowledge and interest in politics and history. nwo awareness. 911 awareness. new schools and universities. the creation of a new free operating system. and many more achievements in the field of education Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 It's a shame to see a country give away it's meat and potatoes in exchange for a few delicious sweets. I know spanish, understand the history of South America, and still don't believe this is a good thing. Still, I wish Venezuela the very best, and that whatever crazy dreams Chavez imposes on it work out in the interest of the country. I just don't have much hope for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALIgula Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 i went to venezuela in 1996 and 2005.... it seems as though the country is divided in 2...pro chavez and anti chavez... to me, it seems like chavez makes promises that he doesnt keep... and now it seems like more of a dictatorship when he gets re-elected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupBDC Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Not to say anything about Cesar Chavez (personally I hate politics), but dont WE use tear gas and water hoses on protestors? The only difference between this and any day in America is its against the law to use military force on US citizens... which is why we have SWAT and riot forces as sort of a loophole. Just thought Id point out CNN is using the story to fit their own anti-Chavez agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILOTSMYBRAIN Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Just thought Id point out CNN is using the story to fit their own anti-Chavez agenda. Not that everything else you said wasn't true. This just needs to be emphasized. I'm not going to say that Chavez is THE man or anything. Or everything he does is the right course of action. However I do think what he's doing at heart is for the benefit of Venezuela and it's people. Of course their will also always be protester's, I mean everyone agreeing on one subject that kind of stuff only happens in our congress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 the swearing was unnecessary, you would have not said that in real life, so keep it to yourself. yeah he tried, as the leader, from inside the venezuelan army but it wasn't backed by the CIA with Operation Condor. it was the movement that is victorious today in venezuela(together with the new members who were asleep and found out about his political party and became majority). Juan don’t be such a dumb cunt. The new world order zombie reptilian shapeshifter conspiracy stuff your always babbling about aside, the Chavez coup was justified because he was a military leader? The 2002 coup was also orchestrated and carried out by the senior military leadership. Try again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 Not to say anything about Cesar Chavez (personally I hate politics), but dont WE use tear gas and water hoses on protestors? The only difference between this and any day in America is its against the law to use military force on US citizens... which is why we have SWAT and riot forces as sort of a loophole. Just thought Id point out CNN is using the story to fit their own anti-Chavez agenda. I think the main difference would be the national guard beating a few dozen people to death during protests, or detaining people and then severely beat them. damn you wolf blitzer!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 if it was 20 or even 10 years ago they would have brought down that government and put another leader in place like they did in many countries around the globe. BUT the information and communication it's too advanced to let something that big happen, especially in venezuela where the people are sick and tired of the abuse. in comparison to other latin american countries, venezuelans have evolved socially in a great amount. you must be very naive to believe what is said about chavez government when the ones saying this are pure scum. no one can stop this... they are awake and all the efforts in sinking venezuela are in vain. any media piece is in vain. any kind disinformation about venezuela is in vain. i repeat, this is unstoppable. so save the conspiracy theories to your brothers in slavery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 i went to venezuela in 1996 and 2005.... it seems as though the country is divided in 2...pro chavez and anti chavez... to me, it seems like chavez makes promises that he doesn't keep... and now it seems like more of a dictatorship when he gets re-elected. interesting when you say "divided in two parts" i have heard that many times before and it is not bad. because wouldn't we want this country, the USA, to be divided, pro bush and anti bush? it is not, because of all the amusement out there to distract us from worrying about the issues that matter, the issues that changes our lives. if it was divided we could get to a point, a democratic one, being us the side that wins, because we want a change and are majority....in reality we live in hypocrisy here, letting these tyrants do whatever they want with the support from the minority of its citizens, citizens that fund this monster who's policy ruin our freedom and the peace of the world.... the USA has been a terrorized, deceived, and distracted country, and that's why we keep on living in the same way for years. and it is not going to stop unless we want that to stop. im optimistic and i know there has to be a change, but for people who do drugs, watch those sad movies, run away from politics, et cetera, is really hard for them to see a solution when they are filled with negativity and bad influences. ------------------------------------------------------ it seems like promises he didn't make? i have seen chavez's government to be the most helpful towards the poor and middle class ever in the history of venezuela. do some research on it, dont just assume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayorMeanBeans Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 whoever made the parallel to american protestors being teargassed is a good way of seing the anti-chavez bias in the media... and i agree that media interests in general point to an anti-chavez slant... HOWEVER- WHen people like Juan say that its okay to repress these protests because the people who are orchestrating them are just scared of losing their NWO hold on society, we need to be scared. Because that is one step away from saying, "you can't protest, you shouldn't even be complaining, because yoru property belongs to us all anyway." Good bye civil rights. Furthermore, there are a multitude of reasons why you don't have unlimited re-elections. the most important (and significant in centrally planned economies) is the prospect of creating cults of personality. they are very destabilizing, because the govt then has no legitimacy beyond that leader. Does anyone really think the Cuban state is going to transform seamlessly after Fidel? Finally, regarding this revolution. Last I heard it barely was one. Granted there are health clinics in slums, but how are you going to stay healthy if those slums don't have clean water. Oil is subsidized to the point of retardation, which is completely unsustainable (oh shit- that can't be right- thats what the IMF would say). Revolution is being taken to mean building one hundred thousand strong militias in Caracas with AKs. SERIOUSLY- does anyone outside of Chavez' patronage networks want this? Plus Fuentes- i don't think he was saying geographically divided. he was saying ideologically dividing (im sure that means maybe divided by neighborhood, but its not like east coast/west coast divided you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Juan, are you in Venezuela right now, or at least are from Venezuela? Your views on this don't match up with the views of pretty much every Venezuelan I know. I'm talking friends here in Puerto Rico (which is neighboring island) with poor families back in Venezuela, not rich kids in any way. People who are able to see both sides of the situation and who belong to the social class that's supposedly benefiting from these changes. I also find it funny that you say it's positive for a nation to be divided, when Chavez is doing his damn best to shut out the "other" side from having any sort of voice in the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayorMeanBeans Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Mamerro is it an issue in Puerto Rico about migrant workers coming there from Venezuela/other countries? what are the immigration policies like/is there a lot of illegal immigration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 No so much from Venezuela, but there is definitely a Venezuelan migrant community here. Our biggest illegal immigration problem is with Dominicans, and to a much lesser extent, Cubans. Our situation with Dominicans is about as serious as Cuban immigration is to Florida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 whoever made the parallel to american protesters being teargassed is a good way of seeing the anti-chavez bias in the media... and i agree that media interests in general point to an anti-chavez slant... HOWEVER- WHen people like Juan say that its okay to repress these protests because the people who are orchestrating them are just scared of losing their NWO hold on society, we need to be scared. Because that is one step away from saying, "you can't protest, you shouldn't even be complaining, because your property belongs to us all anyway." Good bye civil rights. i didn't say it is OK to repress, to disperse and weaken the mob, I'm against any kind of violent protest, especially to a government like this one in Venezuela. they started the chaos and the policed controlled them with water to the air and some tear gas, in the US you would have been tasered, beaten up and dragged into a police car. Furthermore, there are a multitude of reasons why you don't have unlimited re-elections. the most important (and significant in centrally planned economies) is the prospect of creating cults of personality. they are very destabilizing, because the govt then has no legitimacy beyond that leader. Does anyone really think the Cuban state is going to transform seamlessly after Fidel? unlimited elections is what people what because of what Chavez is, they hear him talk and and see him take the country forward and that is why the 70+% of support he gets. and he is also giving the chance for "communal powers"(mini governments withing the state) to form and let common people take care of their issues in their cities. Cuba will change due to Venezuelan influence,now. visualize Cuba as an animal locked in a cage without social help from anyone, with Chavez and Venezuela Cuba will be helped and made back a productive country. Finally, regarding this revolution. Last I heard it barely was one. Granted there are health clinics in slums, but how are you going to stay healthy if those slums don't have clean water. Oil is subsidized to the point of retardation, which is completely unsustainable (oh shit- that can't be right- thats what the IMF would say). Revolution is being taken to mean building one hundred thousand strong militias in Caracas with AKs. SERIOUSLY- does anyone outside of Chavez' patronage networks want this? listen, it seems as you don't know what was going on in Venezuela before Chavez, that place have always been tortured and abused by the globalists. little by little the atmosphere is changing, and the new government is helping then come out of those slums, helping them build houses and teaching them how to read and getting them jobs so their new houses don't turn to be slums again. and about militarily, how limited you think...so your country has large oil resources and your people is coming out of misery and repression that makes them conformists, together with becoming aware of who's fault is it and exposing it. isn't thats is a huge risk for the globalists? they will invade like they invade all the countries who progress...or you don't know the history of your government? Plus Fuentes- i don't think he was saying geographically divided. he was saying ideologically dividing (I'm sure that means maybe divided by neighborhood, but its not like east coast/west coast divided you know. yeah menino, thats a duh one, an obvious one, an of course one it is good, the masks come off, we know who is who, we know who to make allies with. organize, plan, act. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Juan, are you in Venezuela right now, or at least are from Venezuela? Your views on this don't match up with the views of pretty much every Venezuelan I know. I'm talking friends here in Puerto Rico (which is neighboring island) with poor families back in Venezuela, not rich kids in any way. People who are able to see both sides of the situation and who belong to the social class that's supposedly benefiting from these changes. I also find it funny that you say it's positive for a nation to be divided, when Chavez is doing his damn best to shut out the "other" side from having any sort of voice in the country. I'm not from Venezuela neither i am there. my views come to existence because of the information i consume. i read tons of news from Latin America and i know who is against the bolivarian revolution and who is in favor of it, that tells me a great deal if this good or not, the rest is seeing the reports of achievements, what their goals are, and their ideology, that also tells me an even greater deal(reassurance) how good is this. you can be poor and still be against this revolution. being poor does not mean you are a good person. your way of making business might be a wrong one for the new government. your goals can be impatient materialism and that is not what this government is heading for. you could be too deep in submission to superior powers who you see as your saviors(Stockholm syndrome) there are many reasons why people is against Chavez and his team. but the reasons don't come from the mouth of globovision, rctv, ccn, fox, univision, el nuevo herald, or any n.w.o owned media space. Chavez is not doing his best to shut them up, he doesn't need that, in Venezuela there is total freedom of speech, and don't go into RCTV because we are old enough to know when,what,why it happened. he doesn't need to do that. the revolution shows progress of Venezuela, and Venezuelans who love their country are more than Venezuelans who love their individual life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Chavez is not doing his best to shut them up, he doesn't need that, in Venezuela there is total freedom of speech Flat out untrue, sorry. I'm not speaking from the point of view of the media sources you keep mentioning and dismissing, I don't care what the hell they say. I am talking from the point of view of friends I personally know whose family members have been persecuted, investigated, and generally discriminated against because of their anti-Chavez beliefs. Even if they aren't actively being incarcerated or prosecuted (so far it has remained at the level of intimidation tactics, something that will probably soon change), the existence and promotion of a political environment that encourages such discrimination, where detractors are made to feel unwelcome and ungrateful, and where the ability to voice dissent is suppressed and discouraged, means that there is NOT total freedom of speech. It's not quite yet Cuba-level suppression, but every single action Chavez is taking points to that direction. You say your views come from the existence of the information you consume, which leads me to believe you look this stuff up online. That information comes from the sources that you choose to align your beliefs with. You are CHOOSING to believe the info from pro-Chavez sources, and CHOOSING to ignore anti-Chavez sources. I am choosing to believe the information I hear firsthand from Venezuelans, which adheres to no media source, no corporate interest, only personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 you are taking the info from the venezuelans that left their country, the unpatriotic ones, the cowards. regular people. not facts pointed out in the news. i have time to look at both sides of the information. then i come to a conclusion. this is my passion. there is no time to persecute someone in venezuela, there are too many tasks to take care of, also it is not needed, because they have no argument, they don't even know what the reform says, they dont even know what they stand for...investigated is to find out their ties with corruption, and they even have proofs of corruption coming from the governors, opposition governors who's last term has come because people dont believe in them any more, their sentences will follow Godwilling.... imagine if we could investigate people here in the US, the thousands of scum we will find, that will be possible with Ron Paul. their time is coming, they are desperate about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 you are taking the info from the venezuelans that left their country, the unpatriotic ones, the cowards. regular people. not facts pointed out in the news. Jesus fucking Christ dude, I don't even know why I bother arguing with you. As long as you'd rather believe "facts pointed out in the news" to actual firsthand accounts of people who are living it (who are STILL in fucking Venezuela, I'm not talking about the ones already here, I'm talking about their families who chose to stay), there's really no business in us having an argument about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 I am of the opinion that Venezuela is in a phase of drastic improvement. Have a look at what rampant capitalism has done to latin america and you will realize that Chavez investigating a few dissidents is absolutely nothing compared to what every US puppet leader does to their own people. OF course Chavez isn't perfect but from viewing and reading extensive media on the subject i do think he is sincere in his desire to close the economic gap between rich and poor (a gap the size of which hasn't been seen in the west since the feudal ages). It takes a lot of effort and a lot of change to move from an oligarchy to a socialist democracy and in developing countries it is especially difficult. From all the talk of how terrible and totalitarian CHavez is I really haven't seen a single slice of evidence, if any of you actually watch Venezuelan TV you will realize their entire media is completely against him (apart from state run TV) and they slag him off to a level you have never seen before in the west (openly calling him the devil on national news etc) yet he doesn't go and have them arrested. And Mamerro lets face it your sources of a bunch of people who emigrated from the country (obviously because they didn;t like it all that much to begin with or they would have stayed) isn't all that much a more bi-partisan source than Juan's pro-Chavez websites. for me seeing groups of 80 year old women from the slums finally being taught how to read after they have lived a life of poverty imposed upon them by foreign ownership of the entirety of their country's natural resources, and the zeal to which they strive to learn and become politically and socially active and aware, is far more important than a sizeable minority of upper echelon venezuelans who still live in their mansions on the hills but are becoming more and more aware that the party is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 And PS if a democracy is functional (something you don't have in the US) then there is absolutely nothing wrong with having unlimited number of terms a leader can serve. AUstralia's current prime minister is currently undertaking his 5th (or 6th?) election campaign, it doesn;t look like he's going to win because he's a cock sucking Bush fanatic, but you never know as Austrlaians are about as dumb as Americans and if he scares everyone enough about terrorism and the economy he will probably be re-elected no matter how much everyone hates him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted November 6, 2007 Author Share Posted November 6, 2007 or they will use our little black boxes to "elect" him yay democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Fuentes Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 in venezuela when you vote you take home like a receipt. you know and have prove who you voted. and it's paper votes. in the US is virtual. how can you trust that?!?!?! especially when 3 of the 4 voting COMPANIES(making money out of it eh) are related to the bush dynasty. we should all think very well next time when we talk about dictatorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsblood Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 chavez is a dick, but the people against him are dicks too. that pretty much sums up everything you need to know about politics in the entire third world, or first world for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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