Guantanamo hunger strikers

[serum]

1. you must answer according to my questions. dont turn them away.

 

2. dont try and hide the facts by making pretexts this and that, you are strictly prohibited to contest me.

 

3. dont be a fool for you are a chap who dare to thwart the revolution.

 

4. you must immediately answer my questions without wasting time to reflect.

 

5. dont tell me either about your immoralities or the essence of the revolution.

 

6.while getting lashes or electrification you must not cry at all.

 

7. do nothing sit still and wait for my orders keep quiet. when i ask you to do something you must do it right away without protesting.

 

8. dont make pretexts about kampucheakrom in order to hide your jaw of a traitor.

 

9. if you dont follow all the above rules you shall get many many lashes of electric wire.

 

10. if you dont obey any point of my regulations you shall get either ten lashes or five shocks of electric charge.

 

taken from the guantanamo prison wall, ehem i mean toul sleng phenom penn cambodia

 

its a very simple issue. thoughs with direct ties to terrorists, give them a trial and if found guilty, throw away the key, but give reduced sentences to thoughs who give up the goods. innocent people (who i have the feeling make up the majority of the prisoners) let them go and best give them a nice care package because if they didnt hate america before they certainly will now. how can you give information if you dont have any?!

 

recently the iraqi govt has passed a bill allowing old sadaam loyalists back into the army because it lacks mid level soldiers. how do we know that the people they have in cuba arent the same or lesser rank than those now back in the military? fuck im ashamed to be an american. we are the next generation of nazis. all hail bush.

[KaBar2]

Glad to see you are catching on.

 

"Mobil Exxon, uber alles..."

[guerillaeye]

Originally posted by POIESIS@Nov 2 2005, 02:18 PM

yep, bikes rule. i try to bike everywhere, and fortunately my city is

very bikable, which is nice.

the scary thing is i'm not so sure there is going to be a backlash.

around here the gas prices are equally atrocious, but it doesn't seem

to have made much of an impact on all the hummers and SUV's i see

everywhere. i can't fathom how you can own an SUV

and throw so much money into your tank every week. it's retarded.

Quoted post

i miss tri-met. I used to ride the bus everywhere... now im in an area that doesnt even run past 6:30. fucking pathetic.

[gasfacevictm]

fuck the war.

fuck guantanamo.

fuck the torture.

fuck the white noise and stripping.

fuck the blindfolds.

fuck the force feeding.

fuck the lack of due process.

fuck the news.

fuck the indeterminate holding of anyone.

fuck right and left wingers.

fuck this country.

 

believe it or not the crusades are happening right now under the guise of democracy.

killing is killing no matter what. and doing it in the name of country is no better than doing it in the name of god or allah or whoever the fuck is manipulating everyone participating in this war.

when they find osama they should string up bush for the same crimes.

 

less people have died in this war than did in RWANDA and nobody even cared about that shit.

[KaBar2]

Gasfacevictim, you sound really, really furious at the U.S. government. If I proposed to you that you should join a ficticious resistance group to attack government facilities, but at the risk of winding up in Guantanamo getting interrogated, would you do it? Somehow I doubt it. The people getting captured, transported to Guantanamo (or other, more clandestine, CIA detention facilities) are extremely bad people. I read in the newspaper today that the government estimates that there are less than 10,000 terrorists in Iraq, but they are royally fucking things up for the TWENTY-SEVEN MILLION IRAQIS that want a normal, prosperous, democratically-elected government in a normal, peaceful country.

 

Senator Lieberman (Democrat) says we are winning. I hardly ever agree with Democrats, and Lieberman is usually majorly on my shit list, but in this case, I agree with his assertion that we are winning.

 

Of course, the reason the Senator supports the war in Iraq is because the war in Iraq is in Israel's best interests, but "whatever."

[BURLAP]

how is this in 'israel's best interests'? can you elaborate?

[SF1]

Western style "Democracy" is not a "normal" government or way of life in the middle east you fucking blowjob!

 

I hardly think the muslims in Iraq are glad we are there blowing up their country killing and maiming thousands of their freinds and familly members, destroying their infastructure in order to establish our version of what a government and infastructure should be. Get your head out of your ass and for once realize that these people live in a completely different world than us and have a COMPLETELY different mindset and culture than us, COMPLETELY different social values than us and it doesn't mean that they are wrong, just COMPLETELY different. You can't just go there and bomb them into submition, set up a puppet government, throw up abunch of Starbucks and McDonalds and expect them to just assimilate. That's like if the tables were turned and THEY were the super power and they came and bombed the shit out of us, invaded killing and maiming thousands of us, set up some Muslim government and had the BALLS to tell the world how happy we are to be liberated from our sinfull decadence and how anxious we are to worship Allah while our freinds, familly, and other countrymen are dead, maimed or in concentration camps being tortured for information that they may or may not even have! I know you, Kabar, would deffinately fit into the later because I don't see you just throwing in the towel and trading in your entire way of life to submit to Alah and some alien way of life. So how can you expect for them to do the same? Or even believe "Rummy" when he tells us how "gratefull" the Iraqi people are that we bombed them into obedience and how they can't wait to go to work at McDonalds???

 

Use your fucking head Kabar and realize that the entire world does not revolve around Americas greed and arrogance, and isn't just dieing to be like us.

[SF1]

And here's a pre-emptive "go fuck yourself" to any spelling bee champ that feels the need to point out any misspelled words or typos.

[gasfacevictm]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Dec 11 2005, 12:08 PM

Gasfacevictim, you sound really, really furious at the U.S. government. If I proposed to you that you should join a ficticious resistance group to attack government facilities, but at the risk of winding up in Guantanamo getting interrogated, would you do it? Somehow I doubt it. The people getting captured, transported to Guantanamo (or other, more clandestine, CIA detention facilities) are extremely bad people. I read in the newspaper today that the government estimates that there are less than 10,000 terrorists in Iraq, but they are royally fucking things up for the TWENTY-SEVEN MILLION IRAQIS that want a normal, prosperous, democratically-elected government in a normal, peaceful country.

 

Senator Lieberman (Democrat) says we are winning. I hardly ever agree with Democrats, and Lieberman is usually majorly on my shit list, but in this case, I agree with his assertion that we are winning.

 

Of course, the reason the Senator supports the war in Iraq is because the war in Iraq is in Israel's best interests, but "whatever."

Quoted post

 

 

1st of all don't act like you know what i would or would not do cuz. because you don't know me or my heart.

 

2nd-normal government? what does that mean? american form of governing been around for about 200 years. it's young.

 

3rd-i compared it to the crusades because thats what it is. let's march across the desert with our crosses and bibles (in this case it's flags and corporations) and convert the world because god or country told us that manifest destiny was our divine right. FUCK OUTTA HERE.

 

4th-rome fell and so will this country if it keeps watering down the earth with it's conformity. bush is no better than any of them fuckers over there. it's starting to remind me of how incredible new york was back in the day and now it's all clean and generic unless you roll into grimey ass parts of brooklyn. starbucks on every corner though. yeah, soon there will be no reason to travel at all. we can go to disney world and see the earth in a day.

 

5th-terrorists? i haven't seen shit happen here since 9/11 and although that was an awful event, it happened. wasn't the guy responsible supposed to be caught by now? nah, instead we'll distract you with celebrity news while we start a war with someone who had nothing at all to do with the towers falling down. OIL! OIL! OIL! gotta have more.

[Gunm]

DOWN THE HATCH!

 

 

ha ha ha

[KaBar2]

Burlap---

 

The largest and most credible threat to Israel before 1991 was Iran, then Iraq. Iran has come to terms with the Israelis, despite all their "nuke the Jews" rhetoric. The reason they are ramping up all the squawk is to lead Muslims to believe they not only hate Israel, but would never in a zillion years collaborate with them. Too late. They already have, some time ago. They established a crude working relationship with Israel when LT COL Ollie North brokered a deal with the Iranians in 1980 for Stinger anti-aircraft missles that we had originally sold to Israel. The Israelis got new stuff, fresh from the Stinger factory. The Iranians paid North cash on the barrelhead for the U.S.-nee-Israeli Stingers. North promptly took the cash to Egypt and bought AK47's, RPG's, tons of ammunition, grenades, mines, etc., which he then flew back to Honduras where he armed the Nicaraguan contras. The Iranians used the Stingers against Iraqi aircraft in the Iran-Iraq War.

 

After that, the number one threat against Israel was Iraq, despite the billions that Iraq squandered on the war with Iran. Israel bombed Saddam Hussein's nuclear power plant in an attack that was clearly an act of war. Essentially the message was "Saddam, if you even think about building an atomic weapon, we are going to blow your shit to smithereens."

 

Israeli embassy personnel danced on rooftops from joy watching the Twin Towers collapse on 9/11. Why? Because it meant that the U.S. was about to come crashing into the Middle East like a pissed off Kodiac bear, ripping a new asshole for everybody even remotely connected to the 9/11 attacks. We were already pissed at Saddam, and besides, the sorry little loudmouth was sitting on an ocean of petroleum. Conventional wisdom projected a "hit list." Iraq, Syria, Libya, then maybe Iran. We KO'ed Iraq in less than 100 hours. Ghaddafi shit his pants and immediately started trying to become pals with "the Great Satan." Syria, after raping Lebanon for twenty years, abruptly pulled out because of a few street demonstrations, and started talking about how it's trying to seal their border with Iraq and assist the War on Terrorism. Is the U.S. committed to the freedom of the Lebanese? Not so's you'd notice. But Lebanon is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to Israel. Now the Iranians are really getting scared. So they start rattling their sabres, all the while trying to make under-the-table diplomatic contact with Israel, because they don't want the whole world to see that they are scared shitless.

 

The War on Iraq is really a "War to Defend Israeli Interests." Jewish Americans make up substantially less than 1% of the U.S. population, but they hold very significant numbers of positions in the U.S. government (especially in defense), U.S. banking, U.S. media and U.S. financial industry. American Jews do not dominate the elite class, but they significantly influence it, to the point of constituting the "swing vote." Israel has spent billions of dollars influencing the U.S. "powers that be" to be in Israel's corner when it really counts. American Jews are over 80% liberals, and they bankroll thousands of liberal causes with their donations. They insist on multiculturalism and ultra-liberal policies in every country but one: Israel. Palestinian-Israelis cannot own land, they cannot vote, and they cannot be officers above a certain rank in the Israeli Defense Forces. Certain neighborhoods (the poorest ones) are reserved for Palestinians. They cannot rent or buy property in Jewish areas. Israelis carry passports with their religion and ethnicity on them. The State of Israel does every possible thing it can think of to encourage the Palestinians to leave Israel and prevent them from returning. They want an Israel with absolutely nobody in it but JEWS. NOBODY ELSE. Not Christians, not Muslims, not Druse, nobody but Jews.

 

Here in the U.S., telling people "Merry Christmas" is becoming politically incorrect, and in Israel, Palestinians cannot even eat in a Jewish restaurant.

 

I do not object to the invasion of Iraq, and the deposing of Saddam Hussein. I do not object to the concept of invading Iraq to insure a supply of petroleum. I do not object to the inculcation of a democratic form of government into Iraqi culture. But I DO object to American soldiers dying so that Israel can set up and maintain a racist apartheid state. Next on our list should be invading Israel to secure democracy for non-Jews there. Of course, I'm being facetious, but bottom line, Israel is our ally only as long as it suits their interests. The very second it doesn't, we get another "U.S.S. Liberty" or another spy like Pollard (who just happens to be Jewish--just a coincidence) in the middle of the U.S. Navy strategic defense planning section.

 

Israel will stab us in the back whenever it suits them to do so. We don't owe them a fucking thing. They brag in the Knesset (Israeli parlaiment) how they "own" the U.S. government.

[isor357]

israel has been more than willing in the past to do the dirty work. I dont see why we dont just let them run middle eastern affairs. Let them roll into where ever they want. Displace whom ever they please. If anything we should have a quiet agreement to support anything they do. Its all shit that our government probably wants anyways. We gave them the technology and the weapons. Might as well let them use it.

[Guest imported_Tesseract]

You guys are really funny. Truth is that without Turkey and Israel The US army would not stand a single chance in occupying any country in the middle east. Hell, even now that the US is the only superpower and with these kind neighbours on your side you still cant control iraq. Another big truth is that Israel would be eaten up in miliseconds if the US didnt back them up so much. You all know the deal with Israel's Nuclear project to begin with.

I dont know if its important to start listing who's rubing who's back and who you would prefer to be left out since its just not happening. Its a cycle that could only work this way. The real issue here is to either akwnoledge the whole thing as something you approve or not. It comes as one package.

[WhereEaglesDare]

^^^

 

if we wanted to, we could wipe that troublesome part of the world right off the map.

 

 

 

 

we should

[gasfacevictm]

ha, if WE wanted to?

laughable.

you and i mean about as much to our government as they do.

plus, what the fuck would be the sense in that?

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 15 2005, 08:20 PM

You guys are really funny. Truth is that without Turkey and Israel The US army would not stand a single chance in occupying any country in the middle east.

Quoted post

 

Thats pretty fucking funny. Turkey does little to nothing, and Israel is completely dependent on us. Once Ahmadinejad gets his nuclear program in order and hands it off to one of his crony "terrorist" organizations to strike one of our major cities the gloves will come off and we will revert to the WWII way of doing things. Germany had an insurgency of Hitler's "werewolves" after the war too, that targeted anyone who cooperated with the occupiers and often killed soldiers. We didn't allow the press to report on it, and killed (the Brits beheaded) anyone who was remotely involved. In three years, there was no insurgency. Don't fool yourself into thinking we won't do that again, or that dropping several megatons on a few countries is out of the question because of political correctness.

 

And its not the US army, its "military." The army is one of several branches.

[Stereotype V.001]

Not to mention Afghanistan has been doing good, but maybe that isn't the middle east.

[SF1]

So Stereotype, since your so gun-ho about what our country's doing to the Middle East, why aren't you there? Why don't you join the military and go to Iraq? Don't be a pussy. Put your ass where your mouth is.

[CACashRefund]

its gung-ho

 

 

 

And in reference to Kabars post up there

 

there was this article dated sepetmeber 19 2001, that reports how israeli intelligence is pointing the finger toward iraq as behind the 9/11 attacks

 

LINK

Id like to think that Janes is a pretty reputable source.

[KaBar2]

its gung-ho

 

The term "gung-ho" is a Korean term that means "pulling together," or so I was told in the Marine Corps. After the Korean War, when the U.S. military was reorganizing, the Marine Corps began to change it's training doctrine and adopted a new idea that psychology could be applied to new recruits to create Marines that would never surrender, and who would "go guerrilla" if over-run, and continue to fight regardless of the odds.

 

During the Korean War, under extremely harsh winter weather conditions, dressed in summer uniforms, many Army soldiers and Marines surrendered because they ran out of food, had no winter clothing, and their weapons froze in the cold. After the war was over, the POW's returned and many had been "brainwashed" by the Communist North Koreans. Several thousand died in the POW camps from malnutrition, exposure and harsh treatment, including torture. The South Korean POWs who were captured fared a great deal better, and the main two reasons were racism (the white Marines were singled out for more brutal treatment) and the South Koreans' cultural attitude of mutual solidarity. Therefore, the philosophy of "gung-ho" was introduced into the Marine Corps about the same time that the U.S. Code of Conduct was introduced (1955.)

 

In Boot Camp, we were required to memorize it, and frequently were called upon to shout out articles of the Code of Conduct at the top of our voices.

 

Code of Conduct

 

Article I

"I am an American, fighting in the armed forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense." (This one has been altered to a more politically correct form: the version I learned was "I am an American fighting MAN. . .")

 

Article II

"I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist."

 

Article III

"If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others in escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy."

 

Article IV

"If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way."

 

Article V

"When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, serial number and date of birth. I will evade answering questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statement disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause."

 

Article VI

"I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles that made my country free. I will trust in God and the United States of America."

 

 

This creed may seem rather quaint to most of the people on this board, but the men and women serving in the armed forces take it dead seriously. The training was altered as well, to foster a greater degree of unit pride and solidarity, which already existed to a great degree in the Marine Corps anyway.

 

I don't know much about Turkey, but in a NATO training exercise in 1976, the Marine Reserves knocked their dicks in the dirt. Maybe the Turks we were up against were their third-line troops or something, I don't know. I was in Headquarters & Service Co., 1/23. The Turks jumped on Charlie Co., 1/23 on a hilltop one night. Charlie Co. was dug in, and the Turks "attacked" uphill. Because they did not have enough blank firing adaptors for their M14 rifles (AMERICAN rifles that we gave them, by the way) some of the Turks were shooting live rounds. (You can tell live rounds easily, they are much louder than blanks, plus, some of the rounds were tracers, and Charlie could see the tracers arcing uphill over their heads.) The Marine Reservists were very freaked out over the fact that the Turks were shooting live bullets, and one of the Marines was hit in the chest. When that happened, the shout went up "FIX BAYONETS!" and when the Turks arrived at the military crest of the hill, the Marines came swarming out of their fighting holes with their M16s with bayonets fixed, and entrenching tools (folding shovels), and met the attacking Turks head-on, hand-to-hand. Most of the Turks threw down their shit and ran, because the Marines were out for blood. Scores of Turkish M14 rifles were captured. About twenty M16A1's were completely destroyed in the fight: barrels bent, buttstocks and handguards shattered, "carrying handles" bent down to touch the top of the receiver. A bunch of Turks had to be hospitalized, as well as fifteen or twenty Marines. It was a big shit storm, but they hushed it up in the press, and to smooth ruffled Turkish feathers, the U.S. government made one of those "we deeply regret this unfortunate incident" apologies. After that, they kept the two forces strictly apart.

 

Don't under-rate the U.S. armed forces. All these piss-ant police actions require the U.S. forces to fight with one hand tied behind their back. If you want an idea of what's really what, check out the battle in Fallujah. They killed four U.S. mercenaries and defiled their corpses, and we came back and kicked the shit out of the entire city, with a kill ratio of about 100-to-1. I bet they don't do that shit again. We should have flattened the entire fucking place.

[SF1]

its gung-ho

 

The term "gung-ho" is a Korean term that means "pulling together," or so I was told in the Marine Corps. After the Korean War, when the U.S. military was reorganizing, the Marine Corps began to change it's training doctrine and adopted a new idea that psychology could be applied to new recruits to create Marines that would never surrender, and who would "go guerrilla" if over-run, and continue to fight regardless of the odds.

 

During the Korean War, under extremely harsh winter weather conditions, dressed in summer uniforms, many Army soldiers and Marines surrendered because they ran out of food, had no winter clothing, and their weapons froze in the cold. After the war was over, the POW's returned and many had been "brainwashed" by the Communist North Koreans. Several thousand died in the POW camps from malnutrition, exposure and harsh treatment, including torture. The South Korean POWs who were captured fared a great deal better, and the main two reasons were racism (the white Marines were singled out for more brutal treatment) and the South Koreans' cultural attitude of mutual solidarity. Therefore, the philosophy of "gung-ho" was introduced into the Marine Corps about the same time that the U.S. Code of Conduct was introduced (1955.)

 

In Boot Camp, we were required to memorize it, and frequently were called upon to shout out articles of the Code of Conduct at the top of our voices.

 

Code of Conduct

 

Article I

"I am an American, fighting in the armed forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense." (This one has been altered to a more politically correct form: the version I learned was "I am an American fighting MAN. . .")

 

Article II

"I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist."

 

Article III

"If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others in escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy."

 

Article IV

"If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way."

 

Article V

"When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, serial number and date of birth. I will evade answering questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statement disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause."

 

Article VI

"I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles that made my country free. I will trust in God and the United States of America."

 

 

This creed may seem rather quaint to most of the people on this board, but the men and women serving in the armed forces take it dead seriously. The training was altered as well, to foster a greater degree of unit pride and solidarity, which already existed to a great degree in the Marine Corps anyway.

 

Quoted post

 

So what's your take on marines being tortured for the info they were trained to refuse to give up? You think it's right? You know, for the sake of the national security of Korea?

 

And this--> " the Marine Corps began to change it's training doctrine and adopted a new idea that psychology could be applied to new recruits to create Marines that would never surrender, and who would "go guerrilla" if over-run, and continue to fight regardless of the odds."

Isn't this what the Iraqi insurgents are doing? But you think they're wrong, right?

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by SF1@Dec 22 2005, 10:47 PM

So Stereotype, since your so gun-ho about what our country's doing to the Middle East, why aren't you there? Why don't you join the military and go to Iraq? Don't be a pussy. Put your ass where your mouth is.

Quoted post

 

I am mad gun hoe kid! I tried to join the Marines but at MEPS the ghost of Chesty Puller cock slapped me and called me a pussy.

 

But a question for you, if you hate the current American government, oppose the war in Iraq, think you live in an oppressive police state ect ect, why are you not taking up arms against the government? Why not assist the noble freedom fighters in Iraq? And why do you choose to even live in a country you despise so much?

 

Me thinks the lad will not answereth directly this riddle of riddles!

[SF1]

Because I was BORN here you fucking idiot. This is my country and I aint going anywhere. I don't hate my country I just hate the fucking morons that are running the government and morons like you that give Americans a bad name.

 

Why the fuck would I go to Iraq and fight for them? I'm not one of them.

[Guest imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Dec 22 2005, 05:40 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Dec 22 2005, 05:40 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Tesseract@Dec 15 2005, 08:20 PM

You guys are really funny. Truth is that without Turkey and Israel The US army would not stand a single chance in occupying any country in the middle east.

Quoted post

 

Thats pretty fucking funny. Turkey does little to nothing, and Israel is completely dependent on us. Once Ahmadinejad gets his nuclear program in order and hands it off to one of his crony "terrorist" organizations to strike one of our major cities the gloves will come off and we will revert to the WWII way of doing things. Germany had an insurgency of Hitler's "werewolves" after the war too, that targeted anyone who cooperated with the occupiers and often killed soldiers. We didn't allow the press to report on it, and killed (the Brits beheaded) anyone who was remotely involved. In three years, there was no insurgency. Don't fool yourself into thinking we won't do that again, or that dropping several megatons on a few countries is out of the question because of political correctness.

 

And its not the US army, its "military." The army is one of several branches.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

If you're trying to convince me that you know what Turkey is doing for the states, you cant. Just because of my geographical position ans exposure to media way different than the american ones i'll trust my knowledge instead and just tell you that Turkey is extremely helpfull to the US agenda. If you had any clue on how much money the US feeds to Turkey MONTHLY you'd realise that aswell.

As far as israel depending on you, it takes two to tango.

 

Its interesting you bring ww2 in this, Has it ever occured to you that Bush's america could be the next big thing the rest of the world will rebel against?

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 23 2005, 02:04 PM

 

If you're trying to convince me that you know what Turkey is doing for the states, you cant. Just because of my geographical position ans exposure to media way different than the american ones i'll trust my knowledge instead and just tell you that Turkey is extremely helpfull to the US agenda. If you had any clue on how much money the US feeds to Turkey MONTHLY you'd realise that aswell.

As far as israel depending on you, it takes two to tango.

 

Its interesting you bring ww2 in this, Has it ever occured to you that Bush's america could be the next big thing the rest of the world will rebel against?

Quoted post

 

I do not rely on the mainstream American media for all of my news, and as far as the GWOT or whatever they are calling it Turkey does little (like most countries). You do not understand the current American armed forces' capabilities if you think we need assistance in any way. We successfully toppled and occupied Afghanistan, with less personell than there are police in Manhattan. Because of the bias most international media has, it would lead one to believe the current state of our military is equitable to the post-Vietnam days. Not the case.

 

I'm not arguing whats morally justified or if we should even be there, I'm just saying what you see in Iraq and elsewhere is the PC way of doing things and it may very well change.

 

Do you watch Al Jazeera alot?

[Guest imported_Tesseract]

Haha, al jazeera. Not at all, i'm european but i'm also in a country that has always been extremely tense with Turkey so i know alot about them and their military. Noone argues that the US army is powerfull but if you think that its so powerfull that it doesnt need assistance, you're just being silly, NATO was created exactly for that reason. In any way you have to realise that the current status only applies for a decade and half. While USSR was still in effect all these manouvres would be a huge pain in the ass for the US. Thats a fact that its inavoidable to change, its just history.

 

Furthermore. You're talking about PC because you live in the states. I know and you know that no war can be fought in a PC way and this one is exactly the same. History has its way of uncovering everything and again all the major attrocities will be revealed when nobody involved gives a fuck but it will still stigmatize america more. What is PC in the states could be outrageous someplace else so you're just talking on one countries internal way of sugarcoating the pill, nothing more than that.

[shape1369]

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 23 2005, 12:49 PM

Haha, al jazeera. Not at all, i'm european but i'm also in a country that has always been extremely tense with Turkey so i know alot about them and their military. Noone argues that the US army is powerfull but if you think that its so powerfull that it doesnt need assistance, you're just being silly, NATO was created exactly for that reason. In any way you have to realise that the current status only applies for a decade and half. While USSR was still in effect all these manouvres would be a huge pain in the ass for the US. Thats a fact that its inavoidable to change, its just history.

Quoted post

 

 

Tesser is exactly right. Turkey has been a large force in the middlde east since before WWII. It has always been the interface between Western Governments and Middle Eastern ones. Back when the Ottoman Empire still ran things, it was considered one of the more tolerant cultures in the middle east. Long has it been the prototype for what we would call a modern or progressive islamic state. While recent events would say that they are shying more towards the fundamentalist side of things, that is because those in charge right now are a little bit more radical than previous leaders. When Turkey refused america the right to use its bases right before our attack on Iraq, it was one of the first times that Turkey has ever done anything like that.

 

There was a great article in a recent periodical from University of Chicago that talked about looking at Turkey's history as a means to effectively understand the correct methods for Western Countries to communicate and cooperate with middle eastern countries. Ill try and find it.

 

And yeah, Tesser would know about turkey. Are you in Greece, or Italy? Either way, not great friends with Turkey...

[BURLAP]

the turk govt is slime, and the US keep it pally like that.

as for toasting afghanistan, big deal. when does the US not

pick on weak states, and furthermore, why would they?

[Guest imported_Tesseract]

Greece, F16 FIR violations which lead to virtual airfights from both sides over the aegean sea count to 100 monthly and about 2-4 dead pilots yearly. I guess we're on a small 'cold war' since forever. Turkey's current prime minister is focused on turkey entering the EU so he's trying to calm things down. It makes no difference though because the first thing one has to know about Turkey is that its run by the military generals and not the official goverment. The second thing one should know about turkey is that they might aswell be the best diplomats in the entire world.

[shape1369]

Yeah. My grandfather is turkish and flew in the turkish airforce. When he was in his late twenties he came here through some sort of military exchange program and began teaching people how to fly here. He ended up at Flight Safety until he retired couple years ago. He has an apartment on one of the nicest beaches in Turkey, which I would love to use. It's unfortunate how fundamentalist they are becoming though. I would love to go there and see some of the beautiful places, but I am much less inclined to go knowing that things would be pretty charged over there. But thats off topic, back to the discussion at hand...