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mental invalid

...if you kill 100 terrorists, is it worth 10 innocent lives?...

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...is it right to kill innocent in order to kill the guilty? are 10 lives worth 100 kills...as we gear up for an attack, and we try to cut through the political rhetoric, and breathe wisdom through the anger, we will be faced with this question...and in societies like the middle east where government/culture/religion/terrorism seem to go hand in hand, how effective will we be in seperating the innocent...and how innocent are they in fact...there is this talk of afghanistan and yet did you recognize that the terrorist were mostly from other countries...some even 'friendly' countries...so now it seems how do we eradicate this threat, that prospers in an area, not just a nation, which is so embroiled in hate...we can kill bin laden but more importantly how do we change our policies in order to change the middle east perceptions and behaviours towards us...cause anyone who thinks that if you kill a few terrorist it will all just go away, is not only neglecting the major problems and issues in the middle east since the 40's, but also the past 2,000 years...

 

jumping in tangents

roe

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and who are we to o.k. such acts. i really think it deserves more consideration, and consensus, rather than throwing away our money and votes blindly at a war against the more radical factions of our society. i mean we created it did we not, must we therefore now live with it, good and bad. and on that, people are not in it for the long term. they are all about immediate gratification. who but we judge ourselves, and if we fail to do so, who can take our place. and i'm not sure who these words are directed at, most of "modern" society i guess. i guess when you have a world which you call your mother, and you treat her with disrespect, you cannot help but live in fear and loathing. but what can we do, we were rolling the rock up the hill before we were born, as long as we keep it rolling well we have not to worry? . .we need to come together and try to solve some of this thing before we get flattened by it. the headache was gone for a minute, i'm afraid it's back. i mean we can go on believing that politicians are genuine and good despite what hateful things they say to one another, and the actions some have taken(whether for punishment of the guilty or not, or our "wellbeing"), and that they may be, but the cumulative effect of the latter is not to be taken soooo lightly. i cannot help thinking what will happen if everyone continues to not keep track of what is going on. headache's aside, the time is ripe for some deep consideration of our willful participation in the downfall of earth, from a personal level with a global perspective (whatever the hell that means). what does it mean to be a citizen of this democracy and leader of so many?

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Originally posted by brown twinkie:

i have no idea. its so fuckin' complex and tentacled its gives me a headache.

 

I couldn't agree more. I have playing with the possibilities in my head for days, and none of it has a positive outcome.

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Originally posted by mental invalid:

but more importantly how do we change our policies in order to change the middle east perceptions and behaviours towards us...

 

well the first thing we can do is stop commiting acts of terror on other nations....weve commited comperable acts (as far as lives lost) against other contries with not so much as a peep made about it....but now it happens the good old USA and we want the entire world to back us in a war....

another step we could take is stop enacting sanctions on these middle eastern countries....so we stop incoming medical supplies and food....has this ever had an effect on anyone who was actually harming us??? mabey if we were fighting a war on children we would be winning but as far as i can see innocent people are the only ones weve hurt....

yes, weve jumped to the aid of a huge amount of countries in their times of distress but if timothy mcveigh had devoted the rest of his life to vouleteer work at the local hospital would we have excused what he did....hell no and the US is no exception our goverment handles its self in an unaceptable manner and honestly....is on the same level as the people were fighting....the sad part is that in war and politics taking innocent life is worth more than actually destroying the root of the problem....i wouldnt doubt if you see this practice enacted in the next couple of weeks, that is if the news decides to show you....

 

------------------

brick, brick ,brick...thats how i be up against your girlfriends ass...

 

[This message has been edited by boogie hands (edited 09-17-2001).]

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it like this...10 innocent people is better than the thousands (or even more) of innocent people 100 terrorists can kill.

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When we thought terrorist were still flying in the air, we were going to shoot them down. There were only a few terrorist on the plane with the majority of the passengers being our own people, but we were going to kill them all because if we didn't, the terrorist would probably end up killing a lot more than what's in the plane.

 

Same thing here.

 

I'm sure if we could go to Afghanistan and take out all the innocent people before we bomb it, we would.... But it's an unrealistic thought.

 

We're going to be targeting terrorists though. So if any innocent people are hanging around terrorist hideouts, then maybe they're not so innocent.

 

Why are so many people against bombing though? Picture it on a smaller level. Say for instance that 2 people in the house next to you (people who you never speak with, not friends in this case) kill your entire family, even your dog or cat.... Now, would you care about killing the other three people in that house, or would you just send a hand grenade through the fucking kitchen window?

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Originally posted by BizOne:

When we thought terrorist were still flying in the air, we were going to shoot them down. There were only a few terrorist on the plane with the majority of the passengers being our own people, but we were going to kill them all because if we didn't, the terrorist would probably end up killing a lot more than what's in the plane.

 

Same thing here.

 

I'm sure if we could go to Afghanistan and take out all the innocent people before we bomb it, we would.... But it's an unrealistic thought.

 

We're going to be targeting terrorists though. So if any innocent people are hanging around terrorist hideouts, then maybe they're not so innocent.

 

Why are so many people against bombing though? Picture it on a smaller level. Say for instance that 2 people in the house next to you (people who you never speak with, not friends in this case) kill your entire family, even your dog or cat.... Now, would you care about killing the other three people in that house, or would you just send a hand grenade through the fucking kitchen window?

 

1)first argument, nonsense, you're not killing the innocent to get to the terrorist, you are dismatling a potentially deadly weapon, not the same thing.

 

2)Afganistan is a fucked up place, and i'm sure not all the innocent are prepared to leave their homeland despite the risk of sure death.

 

3)all right, this last part really gets my goat. you are making no cense what so ever here, for instance, you forget that maybe we don't want to spend the rest of our lives in jail, or that maybe we have certain misgivings about killing things, and you have to add that those two people you are taking out may or may not be responsible for the deaths of your family, and even if you strongly suspected it you probably wouldn't be able to tell for sure. you may have the deaths of five instead of three innocents on your hands and have solved nothing.

 

i don't know much, but i think alot of people are talking alot without thinking what hateful messages might be coming across. i certainly hope that it's just the immediacy of the events of last week talking, and not their acutal beliefs.

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yeah, good come back. you're a blood thirsty masochist, and i think you suck eggs through garden hoses.

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close minded, you're the one talking about possibly slaughtering five innocent people, close minded are you fucking kidding me.

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ok, ok, bin laden's not so innocent, but i am going to say you haven't got the slightest clue as to the meaning of what's going on, you say that it's like killing a whole family to kill the two people that killed your family, or wait maybe it wasn't YOUR family, maybe it was someone elses boat that they wrecked, or the family dog like three years ago. well that's what we're talking about isn't it, but in real life you WOULD do jail time for that, who makes america pay, we don't answer to anyone except ourselves, the rest of the world just sits around and thinks about how to diplomatically tell us what we're doing is wrong until it's all over. don't tell me i'm close minded without having any argument to back it up.

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Okay, since we're going to be bombing the terrorists, then why would so many innocent people be hiding out in their caves with them!?

 

Don't worry about the innocent. If they are innocent we'll be sending them to a better place, right?

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Originally posted by boogie hands:

well the first thing we can do is stop commiting acts of terror on other nations....weve commited comperable acts (as far as lives lost) against other contries with not so much as a peep made about it....

 

...and the US is no exception our goverment handles its self in an unaceptable manner and honestly....is on the same level as the people were fighting...

 

you may be right, but is there any chance you could list any of these "comparable acts(as far as lives lost)"? I'd sincerely like to know the last time some US citizens murdered more than 5400(and the number keeps rising) innocents in one day. 75 were killed at waco, and 168 at the Oklahoma city bombing...but those are still only small fractions of 5000+... If you do know of any that come close to the magnitude of this recent attack (in recent years) I think we all ought to know. Peace.

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we don't go to caves and bomb them, we bomb THINGS from the sky, and from far away, and the caves go untouched for the most part that's why.

 

Mr. LonelyHEart-Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. and in our own country, thousands upon thousands die from lack of healthcare, and malnutrition: our argument "ANYBODY can get a job right now." there's plenty of fuel for that fire.

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try again (hint: note the part about "one day")...

 

"I'd sincerely like to know the last time

some US citizens murdered more than 5400(and the number keeps rising)

innocents in one day."

 

 

(again, america has it's problems and the government has plenty of fuckups. certainly.. -but that's a whole different discussion... let's try to keep shit in perspective here)

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what are you trying to prove? that's alot of people, but it wasn't a country, it was terrorists. and there is still nothing that we can do about it without risking a little and possibly alot. it's a tough thing to hear at a time like this i am sure. listen, if we think we can go fuck up a bunch of muslim terrorists without pissing off a whole bunch of countries with lots and lots of money(oil) and influence, we are certainly mistaken. how's that for perspective. think about all the pots we've had fingers in as well, we've killed lots and lots. beijing has alot of intrest in this part of the world as well, how long do you think it will take to piss them off?

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Originally posted by 23578:

what are you trying to prove? that's alot of people, but it wasn't a country, it was terrorists. and there is still nothing that we can do about it without risking a little and possibly alot. it's a tough thing to hear at a time like this i am sure. listen, if we think we can go fuck up a bunch of muslim terrorists without pissing off a whole bunch of countries with lots and lots of money(oil) and influence, we are certainly mistaken. how's that for perspective. think about all the pots we've had fingers in as well, we've killed lots and lots. beijing has alot of intrest in this part of the world as well, how long do you think it will take to piss them off?

 

hey don't get me wrong -I never implied I thought reckless attacks by the US were justified in any way. (I don't think we should bomb over there...) I was just responding to that shit saying we're just as bad as the terrorists.

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allright, we are bad though. who uses the most oil, the most plastic, the most of any non-renewable resource with the exception of sharks fins (ok their renewable, but they are more and more likely to become victims of extinction). how did we end up in this state, little by little that's how. by now everyone has heard about the butterfly effect, how a little butterfly flapping it's wings in japan can be the cause which creates the weather system in the north east US. civilization's had plenty of guidance, but has created inhuman monsters like ADM, "supermarket to the world", or was it Monsanto, who says that india's biodiversity in rice belongs to them because they've recreated it in thier labs and they now have to pay royalties for it. have you ever stopped to think why americans only eat soybeans in fast food when we are the number one producer worldwide? i can go on, but i don't want everyone to label my ravings communistic. can something which makes our lives easier really be of more harm than good, is this questioning really communistic? the choices we make today are of no little importance.

 

when companies experience downturns in the economy, do they not re-analyze their business in order to see what components is critical to their survival and decide what should be saved? can we learn from this practise. some even pour money into finding a better way, and often the benefits are reaped a thousand fold when business picks up.

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Guest K[O]MEGA

i see what 23578 is saying..

why didnt the U.S bomb the U.S when mc-vein or whatever bombed ohklahoma city thing..caus ehe was american..

same fuckign shit..it wasnt a decloration of war..it was a act of terrorism..

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and where were the terrorists at waco? and weren't we very sorry afterwards. read bugs post in my sweetheart, the drunk's thread.

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