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Bush's War

Discussion in 'News' started by Nekro, Dec 23, 2004.

  1. Nekro

    Nekro Elite Member

    Joined: Feb 19, 2003 Messages: 2,568 Likes Received: 1
    So, who is to blame for all the deaths in Iraq? Let's mull this one over a bit, shall we?

    Bush claims Saddam is a threat. Bush claims Saddam has WMDs. Bush claims Saddam has ties to Al Qaida. Bush and his administration promote questionable intelligence that supports their preconceptions and prejudices, and reject that which counters it.

    Bush puts Rummy in charge of the war. Rummy fires general who says "we need more troops". Rummy says we can do more with less. Rummy says "lighter is better than armored". Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld say we'll be met with flower petals. They say the war will be entirely paid for by oil revenues. They say the reconstruction will be paid for entirely by oil revenues.

    Bush says he's giving diplomacy a chance, but he's giving the world a middle finger. Powell says he's showing the Security Council evidence of Saddam's duplicity, but he shows them pictures of warehouses. Bush claims a coalition of the willing, that's really a coalition of the billing -- a mish-mash of third-world nations with token contributions. Only England offers tangible support.

    Bush sends the troops into battle, claiming he had no choice. But Saddam had caved on every Bush demand (inspectors were allowed back in, his long-range missiles were being destroyed).

    No WMDs are found. No ties with Al Qaida are found. No military capable of threatening Iraq's neighbors is found. Saddam's army collapses quickly and the country's defenders retreat into "insurgency" mode.

    Bush declares mission accomplished. Bush taunts the insurgency. The insurgency kills our men and women. The commanders on the ground scream for more troops. They scream for armor. They scream for protected mess halls. Those screams fall on deaf ears.

    More soldiers are killed. 1,320 Americans, 74 Britons, seven Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 16 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and nine Ukrainians. The wounded number in the five figures.

    Nevermind the innocent Iraqis who have been "liberated" to death. And while we scream about Saddam's torture chambers, we create new ones of our own.

    So thousands die, for a war built on false justifications, managed poorly, with underequipped, undermanned, and under-armored forces. And to add insult to injury, we've had to pay for this mess, to the tune of $200 billion.

    So who sent our troops into Iraq on false pretenses? Who sent them in unarmored? Who refused to provide enough troops to stabilize the country effectively? Who taunted the Iraqi opposition with "bring 'em on"? Who approved the American-branded torture chambers? Who has rewarded the secretary of defense who has negligently ignored the armor shortage in Iraq?

    And who keeps them there as they continue to die?

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/22/114038/29
     
  2. <KEY3>

    <KEY3> Veteran Member

    Joined: Mar 24, 2004 Messages: 6,878 Likes Received: 2
    I find it incredibly boggling that people are now starting
    to say Rummy fucked up as if he was acting alone.
    If Rummy goes down it's only to protect Cheny and Bush.
     
  3. BROWNer

    BROWNer Guest

    mind bogglingly disgusting.
     
  4. fatalist

    fatalist Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Mar 10, 2004 Messages: 6,354 Likes Received: 25
    Bush is a lunatic and has destroyed Iraq even more than it was. But even though he is a despicable failure, the entire blame for Iraq’s misery should not be on his head. Bill Clinton’s missile strikes in the 1990s and his administration’s subterfuge and exploitation of the UN inspections as a way of getting to Saddam and killing him is also shameful. No, I don’t think Saddam was a great guy; He was crazy. But then again why did the U.S. support and defend him in the 1980s when he committed the worst atrocities? Isn’t this something we all should look into?

    This whole Iraqi misadventure has taught me one thing: There is really no such thing as a free and decent country in this world. Every country for the most part is ran by arrogant and greedy people who are only out to gain as much for themselves as they can. Self-interest and self-aggrandizement is the eternal human catalyst. So let’s stop kidding ourselves about America or any other country for that matter being a land of “freedom” and a “peaceful nation.” These are just pretty labels meant to fool ignorant people to follow some questionable and ill-conceived cause,i.e. the war in Iraq. Anyone who thinks that the U.S. or any other country for that matter went into Iraq, a ran-down country which is mostly desert, just to free the people and bring “democracy” without expecting anything in return, is an ignorant idiot with no knowledge of world history. France and Germany didn’t send their soldiers into Iraq: why? Simply because doing so was contrary to their political and economic interests, not because they object to the war in Iraq just on moral grounds. There really are no good guys in this whole Iraqi mess, except the Iraqi people and those American soldiers who either refused to fight or ones who realized that what they have done is wrong and don’t want to be a part of the charade anymore...
     
  5. villain

    villain Veteran Member

    Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Messages: 5,190 Likes Received: 2
    This is something I've been very afraid of. As the cold war was fought over ideology this war is being fought over capital.
    They seem to be doing good things in venezeula........
    Regardless of whether things end the easy way or the hard way.... they have to end somehow. I would prefer the easy way. It looks as though we are going the way of Rome. Bush is Caligula. We shall fall victim of empirical overstretch if we cannot fix things from within.
    The book "After the Empire: The Breakdown of the American Order (European Perspectives: a Series in Social Thought and Cultural Ctiticism)"
    by Emmanuel Todd, C. Jon Delogu, Michael Lind
    Details this. This author also predicted the fall of the soviet union in another book back in 1979. Still waiting to read it though. I got alot of books. Sheesh.
    But from the trends I'm seeing we are breaking militarily and economically. Which breaks first and when only time will tell for sure. They could enact a draft to postpone a military breakdown.... but all this borrowing money from foreign lenders in order to finance our own unilateralistic hegomony is bound to fall through eventually.
    Anyone know anything about Hubberts peak? I guess this is the Saudi Peak oil. With peak oil there.... lack of reliable oil from Iraq.... the given instability there which is preventing for the time being a military invasion of Iran.... we could be looking at global economic collapse. That would be crazy.
    Sheesh... shit like this makes me want to start storing food in a bunker.
     
  6. AerosolTerrorist

    AerosolTerrorist Member

    Joined: Oct 8, 2004 Messages: 443 Likes Received: 0
    One of the worst mistake keeping him as president

    lives or oil??.....hmmm The good president would pick oil just like ours....hmm
     
  7. ODS-1

    ODS-1 Elite Member

    Joined: Jul 21, 2003 Messages: 3,575 Likes Received: 0
    Rummy is just an old man who forgot to take his medication, and Bush is just an ex presidents spoiled little "slow" boy. Dick Cheney is the only one remotely smart enough to be behind any of this.
    Who knows, maybe in 2008 we can not have an idiot in there (if that's possible.)
    Although I heard Jeb Bush is thinking of running then.
     
  8. ledzep

    ledzep Junior Member

    Joined: Feb 21, 2002 Messages: 146 Likes Received: 1
    Jesus, could you imagine? BUSH III.
     
  9. AerosolTerrorist

    AerosolTerrorist Member

    Joined: Oct 8, 2004 Messages: 443 Likes Received: 0
    That is a very disturbing thought,It's like the Bushes were put on this planet to destroy it,which is pretty much what they are doing!
     
  10. KaBar2

    KaBar2 Senior Member

    Joined: Jun 27, 2003 Messages: 2,125 Likes Received: 64
    Oh, please. The war in Iraq is a war just like any other war. War is the continuation of politics by other means. Iraq is a strategic objective which is sitting on an ocean of petroleum. Saddam was a useful tool when he was fighting the Iranians. The Afghans were useful when they were fighting the Soviets. That was then. This is now.
    You guys sort of like to pretend your hands aren't dirty in this whole deal, but the truth is that we all enjoy a degree of luxury accessible to very, very few people in the world. What, do you expect it to be free? It's not free.

    In order for the West to live at this level of consumption, we must burn 75% of the world's energy. Is it good? I don't know, I guess so. You guys enjoy all the benefits of a modern industrial society just as much as the Bushes and the Clintons and the Rockefellers and the DuPonts and so on, just at a somewhat less luxurious level.

    Eventually, we must face facts. And the facts are that to control Iraq's Sunni Triangle, we will have to leave it a wasteland. I predicted that the Marines would go into Fallujah and flatten the fucking place. They didn't quite flatten it, but I'm sure it wasn't because they were trying to save local landmarks, and I don't doubt for a second that they would be willing to go back again tomorrow and blast the shit out of every living thing in the whole place AGAIN until the Iraqi Sunnis WISE THE FUCK UP and stop shooting at Marine Corps ground patrols.

    There are only three Iraqi provinces that are out of control. Most likely the best of all solutions is to surround the Sunni Triangle with heavy armored divisions and send in the Kurds. I bet they don't give a flying fuck if the the U.N. squeals to high heaven about genocide. The Kurds hate the fuck out of the Sunnis, and given the opportunity, they would cheerfully kill every last Sunni in Iraq.

    It's not as if the Sunnis don't know the score. They need to get with the program before we just let the Kurds have their ass.

    If they were smart, they would stop shooting at the U.S. and coalition forces, and ACCEPT the fact that there is going to be a free and fair election, and that since they are a minority, they are going to LOSE POWER OVER IRAQ. The Shiites will win. The power split will go Shiites, Kurds, Sunnis. The Sunnis won't like it. "Oh well." They have a choice--either stop the terrorist insurgency, or be eliminated en toto. Once the election results are in, and there is a legitimate elected government in Iraq, the Iraqi Civil War will begin, and the Sunnis that survive it will accept the authority of the Iraqi government. Then we can pack our shit up and go home and let the Shiites hunt down the remaining insurgents all by themselves.

    There it is, fellas--"Democracy in Action."
     
  11. villain

    villain Veteran Member

    Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Messages: 5,190 Likes Received: 2
    Ever the man of controversy aren't we Kabar?
    Well while I can admire the fact that at least you admit this is about oil, if there were any justice in the world, you would be guilty of, if not conspiracy, criminal negligence.
    And genocide on the Sunnis? Come on man. You really think this will solve the problem? Sunnis may be a minority in Iraq but they are the majority in the moslem world. The middle east would be in flames... it would be WW3. Other muslims would be thinking, "Who's next? Us?". Indiscriminate killing is NEVER a good idea. And it's not good on troop morale either.
    How many of those people are foreign fighters? I dunno, alot. This war is already global.... but there is now only one main front.... in iraq.
    It's not going to be won with violence as I've said all along. It can only be won by addressing the legitimate grievances of the muslim people. If we continue to lash out blindly at phantoms who are often seen as freedom fighters, we are only making the problem much larger and worse.
    But since Bush is not even a statesman, I doubt he could do what is needed to remedy this situation. But the problem is he is not even trying with his "don't mess with texas" machismo. Fucking idiot.
     
  12. Nekro

    Nekro Elite Member

    Joined: Feb 19, 2003 Messages: 2,568 Likes Received: 1
    I have no clue about how we can improve things in Iraq. I don’t have a single idea for how we can un-shit the bed, and I don’t hold out much hope that this whole bed-shitting episode is ever going to be brought to a lemony-fresh conclusion. I do, however, know who shit the bed, and have some sense of how frequently he shits there. Let’s stop shitting for a start.
     
  13. bobthebuilder

    bobthebuilder Member

    Joined: Nov 15, 2004 Messages: 295 Likes Received: 1
    As i stateted before.. this war was all lies.. it was and still is about OIL.

    I also dont like when people call our soldiers murderers and such shit. People are responsible for the wars and its the soldiers job to fight them. No one asked to be thrown into IRAQ.
     
  14. bobthebuilder

    bobthebuilder Member

    Joined: Nov 15, 2004 Messages: 295 Likes Received: 1
    There is only one way to fix the mess. WE build bases away from the cities.. to not show any presance..and let the iraquis (SHITTES) deal with the threat. Many of you dont understand the religious aspect of this.. which is very important... there could be a civil war in no time in iraq... but thats the only thing we can do... for every insurgent killed 2 replace him. Intel suggest there are about 200k part time insurgents in Iraq.
     
  15. Nekro

    Nekro Elite Member

    Joined: Feb 19, 2003 Messages: 2,568 Likes Received: 1
    How about we leave?
     
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