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christo-f

One less crazy libertarian terrorist to worry about!!

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Plane Attack Targets IRS Office in Texas

 

A small single-engine plane crashed into the first and second stories of the Echelon No. 1 building at approximately 9:46 a.m. local time in northwest Austin, Texas, on Feb. 18, causing a fire and extensive structural damage. One death and two injuries have been reported at present, though there are several unconfirmed reports of “walking wounded” around the scene. Two F-16 fighter jets were scrambled out of Houston as a precautionary measure. The pilot of the aircraft has been identified as Joseph Andrew Stack, who reportedly is dead.

 

The Echelon No. 1 building housed offices of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), which were located on the first three floors. The Austin field office of the FBI was located in the same office complex, but the building housing the field offices was not struck by the aircraft.

 

 

National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB ) officials have reported that Stack set his home ablaze earlier in the morning in north Austin before traveling to the Georgetown Municipal Airport, some 30 miles to the north of Austin. Stack, a licensed pilot, reportedly took off in his personal aircraft at 9:20 a.m. local time without filing a flight plan. Pilots are not required to file flight plans when visual flight rule conditions prevail, and conditions were clear. Stack reportedly was seen flying at a very low altitude approaching the Echelon business complex from the northwest and proceeded to bank hard to the south into Echelon building No. 1.

 

 

 

Reports have surfaced of a possible suicide note posted by Stack on the Internet detailing his long history of problems with the IRS. Stack reportedly concluded the note with, “I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.”

 

The present evidence indicates that this was a premeditated attack on the IRS offices located in the Echelon building. Given Stack’s extensive past with the IRS, he most likely would have been familiar with the location of the offices, as the IRS offices in that building are often a last stop for complaints regarding tax issues. This attack does not appear to have been coordinated with any other individuals.

 

 

 

 

Defining Terrorism At Home

 

ON THURSDAY, WITHIN HOURS AFTER a Piper Cherokee PA-28-236 single engine plane crashed into the office building in Austin, Texas that houses the local Internal Revenue Service (IRS) criminal investigation unit, federal authorities announced that the act was not terrorism. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS ) released a statement saying that they “have no reason to believe there is a nexus to terrorist activity.” We disagree with this assessment, and apparently so does the U.S. government. According to USA PATRIOT Act, title VIII, section 802, terrorism is the following:

 

“[An] act of terrorism, means any activity that (A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B ) appears to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.”

 

“Terrorism is a tactic, one that can be used by anyone to pursue any ideology.”

 

The first condition was clearly met: Although the pilot is the only person confirmed dead in the attack, intentionally crashing an airplane into a building is very violent and poses a serious threat to human life. The second condition appears to have been met by an apparent suicide note dated February 18, 2010 that was posted to a website by Joe Stack, the person believed to be the same Joseph Stack who crashed the plane into the building. In the note, Stack outlined his long history of troubles with the IRS and his general dislike for the U.S. government and its unfairness. In justifying his actions, he writes, “Nothing changes unless there is a body count…” He goes on to say:

 

“I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are.”

 

Finally, Stack also says in his letter, “…violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer.”

 

This kind of rhetoric clearly matches points (i) and (ii) of the PATRIOT Act’s definition of terrorism, which call on others to act out violently to change government policy. True, it appears that Stack was acting alone, with no indications that he was linked to transnational or domestic terrorist organizations, but these conditions do not determine whether an act is defined as terrorism or not.

 

In this attack, removing the classification of terrorism limits authorities’ ability to investigate and prosecute its case. This does not necessarily change the course of the ensuing investigation as Stack very well may have been acting alone. However, there is a small yet significant anti-federal government minority that will agree with Stack’s motive, if not necessarily his actions. The DHS does not have the final say on how this case gets treated; the White House has yet to make a call on it, so the classification could change. But the immediate response exemplifies how terrorism in the United States is depicted inaccurately based on the popular perception of terrorism being foreign-based or linked to radical Islamists. But terrorism does not belong to any set ideology or group. It is a tactic, one that can be used by anyone to pursue any ideology.

 

Domestic threats are, in a way, much more challenging to deter than foreign-based threats, which must cover a vast amount of territory and pass through relatively well-protected borders to carry out an attack. In the past year, terrorist attacks at the military base in Fort Hood, Texas and a military recruiting center in Little Rock, Arkansas and attempts in New York (just to name a few) have demonstrated the effectiveness of the domestic operative to get relatively far in the preparation of an attack, and even achieve success. This poses a salient challenge to national security forces.

 

In fact, historically, terrorism in the United States has far more frequently been the work of domestic actors rather than foreign ones. Domestic groups such as Weather Underground, the Black Panthers and the Ku Klux Klan were the usual suspects when it came to terror attacks. This domestic hand was seen most notably — and more recently — in Timothy McVeigh and the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. The motivation for Thursday’s attack tracks loosely with that of the Oklahoma City bombing; It was far less damaging, but nevertheless directed squarely at the federal government, and intended to influence the U.S. government and the American people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't take too much offense at the title, I'm just taking the piss.

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This guy isn't (wasn't) a libertarian. His "manifesto" sounds Marxist and confused.

Glad no one was killed except for the perpetrator. I don't like it very much when people

do things like this, but am afraid we're going to be seeing more in the coming months/years.

 

 

Also, Christo, saw your disclaimer at the bottom. All the U.S. news is calling this guy a tea party

supporter, etc. Pretty much your idea of funny is the U.S. "news" idea of reality.

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Yeah I'm quite surprised the topic hadn't reached Crossfire already.

 

Thought people here would have been right on to it.

 

 

 

*Edit, where's the MArxist content here?

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Yeah I'm quite surprised the topic hadn't reached Crossfire already.

 

Thought people here would have been right on to it.

 

 

 

*Edit, where's the MArxist content here?

 

 

It's been discussed in one of the top five threads in here. Very briefly.

I think everyone feels the same. Sorry it had to happen, now waiting

for the fallout.

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Yeah I'm quite surprised the topic hadn't reached Crossfire already.

 

Thought people here would have been right on to it.

 

 

 

*Edit, where's the MArxist content here?

 

 

His manifesto.

http://www.businessinsider.com/joseph-andrew-stacks-insane-manifesto-2010-2

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0218102stack1.html#theLink

*added source

 

Witness to crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gItV-ENkxPY&feature=player_embedded

 

Someone made a facebook page for him. Even decorated it using a patriotic flag

and quotes from Ron Paul....how sweet.

Xv2tE.jpg

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Casek, other than the second last line, please show me where this is related to Marxism. I'm looking for the division of labour, ownership of property, exploitation through labor here because corporation using its legal power to fuck people has nothing to do with Marxism and that's all I see here is a dude angry about taxation laws and the corporate-government nexus that results in him losing his money through legal avenues. That is not a Marxist issue, at all. Admittedly he is not a typical libertarian as well, he's a pissed off guy. But there is a huge amount of overlap between his position and that which we see argued here ad nauseam.

 

I agree that this dude sounds a little fucked up (and I have sympathy for his situation) however I can see a good deal in this that discusses the issue of taxation, freedoms and illegitimate government and restrictive laws.

 

Now, please point out the Marxism here:

 

 

 

 

If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?” The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time. The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken. Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it. I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head. Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy. Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.

 

While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.

 

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

 

And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!

 

How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system? Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.

 

How did I get here?

 

My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

 

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

 

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.

 

Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of “paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer.

 

On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father. I realized this at a very young age.

 

The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on.

 

In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time. When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me). I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread. I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made. I decided that I didn’t trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.

 

Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a ‘wet-behind-the-ears’ contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.

 

For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml).

 

SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.

 

(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:

 

(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.

 

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.

 

Note:

 

· "another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.

 

· "taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.

 

· "individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.

 

 

 

Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but it’s not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave. Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.

 

During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time. I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity. This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”. Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients.

 

After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise. The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists). This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect.

 

Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle. If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.

 

Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks. Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s. Our leaders decided that they didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that. The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco. However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall. Again, I lost my retirement.

 

Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed. Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare. Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months. This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive. Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY! After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.

 

By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a change. Bye to California, I’ll try Austin for a while. So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where damn little real engineering work is done. I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work. The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages… and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.

 

To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA. This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income. I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out. Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.

 

So now we come to the present. After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again. But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle. After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.

 

When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order. I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting. Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit. By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.

 

This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented). Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone. The end result is… well, just look around.

 

I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”. Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.

 

As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone. The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government. Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough). In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.

 

I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand. It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won’t continue; I have just had enough.

 

I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer. The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.

 

I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

 

 

 

The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

 

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

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He praises communism over capitalism at the end.

 

 

Also: did anyone else notice that he never takes fault

for how his life was going?

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He praises communism over capitalism at the end.

 

 

Also: did anyone else notice that he never takes fault

for how his life was going?

 

Hah! If that's all you've got out of that whole letter then you've got nothing and your previous point is null and void.

 

Being that he never mentions Communism, Marxism, exploitation, the devision of labour, proletarian over the bourgeoisie nor does he say how capitalism, free markets and open economies are bad, etc. etc. in the whole body of his letter, I'd strongly suggest that his final two lines are more a criticism of corporate greed rather than support for a government of the people and centralised economy.

 

I don't understand how you can ignore all the other lines discussing taxation and corrupt government for one little trow away quip at the end. I'd suggest that you're only seeing what you want to see.

 

 

 

 

*Disclaimer, I'm not saying that he was a libertarian, more so that his complaints/views overlap a fair bit. Sure as fuck more so than bloody Marxists!!

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Its Bernake's fault...didnt you read?

 

You obviously haven't been paying attention.

 

Obama promised everything and has done nothing..., now this.

 

America is doomed.

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Hah! If that's all you've got out of that whole letter then you've got nothing and your previous point is null and void.

 

Being that he never mentions Communism, Marxism, exploitation, the devision of labour, proletarian over the bourgeoisie nor does he say how capitalism, free markets and open economies are bad, etc. etc. in the whole body of his letter, I'd strongly suggest that his final two lines are more a criticism of corporate greed rather than support for a government of the people and centralised economy.

 

I don't understand how you can ignore all the other lines discussing taxation and corrupt government for one little trow away quip at the end. I'd suggest that you're only seeing what you want to see.

 

 

 

 

*Disclaimer, I'm not saying that he was a libertarian, more so that his complaints/views overlap a fair bit. Sure as fuck more so than bloody Marxists!!

 

Seems like an anarchist with some commie (Marxist) views. He hates the government, religion, etc.

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You obviously haven't been paying attention.

 

Obama promised everything and has done nothing..., now this.

 

America is doomed.

 

it was a joke to casek

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I'd say he doesn't really have any particular ideology at all, just pissed off about the taxes that he's paid and the rough deal he feels that he received.

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You obviously haven't been paying attention.

 

Obama promised everything and has done nothing..., now this.

 

America is doomed.

 

haha, how you have changed from your other rants on how America is a backbone superpower

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kiss my broke foreclosed ass aussie

 

I heard Australia was doing well cause of exports to Asian markets.

I hope your koalas get lead poisioning

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Not just the Asians but the world's greatest polluter, China.

 

Koalas aren't real, they're just a tourist campaign to lure gullible Americans.

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Not just the Asians but the world's greatest polluter, China.

 

Koalas aren't real, they're just a tourist campaign to lure gullible Americans.

 

 

Waits for dingo jokes.

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Another person was killed inside the building.

 

 

Just saw that a bit ago. Don't have too much to say about it except that it's a shame.

Old Joe didn't do anything but help further an awful agenda. His "sacrifice" (as I'm sure

that's what it was in his mind) was fruitless and will only help the bad guys out.

 

RIP to the one innocent that was killed.

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Not to be a conspiracy theorist...but on the Austin news they had witnesses that said fire department and police where on the scene before the plane ever crashed.

 

 

 

hrmmmm......

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