discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[StephenHarper]

that's exactly my point. The discussion was concerning the prophet Muhammad who lived in Arabia over 1400 years ago where the average life expectancy was 40-50 years old ,where people matured faster and marrying young was common.

i'm not talking about today, we'ere playing on a different ballpark nowadays.

 

Quite trying to defend a pedophile. Its not like Mohammad was 12 and she was six. He was already an old man. He forced her father against his will to give him the girl. Not to mention he stole other men's wives. Divorced them. Ordered assassination's and stole. His legacy is a religion that is responsible for thousands of murders a year. Talk about a death cult. Why don't you open your eyes to to the fact that your basing your life on an immoral, unjust, violent, sexually perverse religion?

 

And in regards to those of you saying the quran has changed over all these years I'm even Dawood would disagree with you.

[the.crooked]

quit*

 

i agree with you that it itself has not changed.

[fermentor666]

hey!

how do you all know muhammed married a 6 year old?

it happened 1400 years ago...

it is wrong i know,but how can u prove it?

peace

 

 

 

It's true, somewhere along the way there might have been a 1 before that 6 that got erased on one of the stones it was carved into.

 

 

Another more non-joke note, life expectancy is an average, and up until recently there were a LOT of children that died in infancy or their first few years. So, that obviously brought the average down quite a bit. People were still living into their 60's and even 70's.

[fermentor666]

Why don't you open your eyes to to the fact that your basing your life on an immoral, unjust, violent, sexually perverse religion?

 

And in regards to those of you saying the quran has changed over all these years I'm even Dawood would disagree with you.

 

 

 

You could insert Christianity into that argument just as easily. Fact is, Dawood, and many other Muslims, do not practice Islam to that extreme just like many Christians do not practice their religion to the extremities in the Bible. The Quran and Bible might not have changed, but the methodology of practicing has changed. I don't want to answer for him, but I'm pretty sure that hypothetically, if he was in charge he would not be cutting people's hands off and forcing little girls into marriage. And Islamic cultures were certainly not the only ones that would customarily have girls under the age of 16 put into marriage. In Iceland, for instance, the age of consent is still 14.

[StephenHarper]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Dawood would do those things but he is basing his life, morals and eternity on a religion that at the very least condones those things and in many cases supports them.

[the.crooked]

The point is that almost all regligions could be bounded by such harsh interpretations of the dogma or the historiological progress of those dogmas, but if you practically want to discuss those ideas you do not attack those that are not ascribed too, because then you hit the stalemate we are now at. Only through the practiced dogmas should things be argued for then there is a basis for at least an attempt to talk about these things.

 

 

Can we all just agree that Dawood, nor the particular perscription of Islman he practices condone many of the of extreme philosophies of some readings of Islam? Just like some people have such mundane appreciations for other religious dogmas that they believe a non practice is ascription enough, so anyone can read their own religion in such a subjective way.

 

 

It is a moot point. Let's move on from here.

[Dawood]

Quite trying to defend a pedophile. Its not like Mohammad was 12 and she was six. He was already an old man. He forced her father against his will to give him the girl. Not to mention he stole other men's wives. Divorced them. Ordered assassination's and stole. His legacy is a religion that is responsible for thousands of murders a year. Talk about a death cult. Why don't you open your eyes to to the fact that your basing your life on an immoral, unjust, violent, sexually perverse religion?

 

And in regards to those of you saying the quran has changed over all these years I'm even Dawood would disagree with you.

 

 

I'm done talking with you, your on ignore. You are ignorant , you speak from your own desires, without any proof. Muhammad is free from all of what you say and he's free from the murderous actions of those people who kill and oppress people because his own teachings didn't support terrorism.

 

ignore.

[¤Shark¤]

Quite trying to defend a pedophile. Its not like Mohammad was 12 and she was six. He was already an old man. He forced her father against his will to give him the girl. Not to mention he stole other men's wives. Divorced them. Ordered assassination's and stole. His legacy is a religion that is responsible for thousands of murders a year. Talk about a death cult. Why don't you open your eyes to to the fact that your basing your life on an immoral, unjust, violent, sexually perverse religion?

 

And in regards to those of you saying the quran has changed over all these years I'm even Dawood would disagree with you.

 

Yep I'm gonna have to agree here. But only on the point that a grown man wouldnt marry a young child. and during these times a grown man was around 20. Because the life expectency was so short, a 10-15 year old would marry a 10-15 year old. not a 35 year old marrying a 10 year old.

[StephenHarper]

I'm done talking with you, your on ignore. You are ignorant , you speak from your own desires, without any proof. Muhammad is free from all of what you say and he's free from the murderous actions of those people who kill and oppress people because his own teachings didn't support terrorism.

 

ignore.

 

I've backed up every thing I've said from the quran and hadiths. I geuss you got nothing left when you gotta take it personal with the classic "ignorant" statement.

[fermentor666]

Yep I'm gonna have to agree here. But only on the point that a grown man wouldnt marry a young child. and during these times a grown man was around 20. Because the life expectency was so short, a 10-15 year old would marry a 10-15 year old. not a 35 year old marrying a 10 year old.

 

 

Read what I said about life-expectancy. People were living a lot longer than 20.

[¤Shark¤]

Yeh i read that. I agree with u. Dawood said that it was okay because the life expectency was 40-50 years. I agree with Dawood in saying it would be okay if they both married at that age. But i'm agreeing with you Fermentor in saying that it would still be completely wrong for someone who is of age, say someone who is 20 to marry a 10 year old even. still in those days that was completely out of context because someone who is 20 would be to old to marry by then anyway.

[¤Shark¤]

And no. back then the average life expectency was not alot older than that. it was infact around 30-40. But then again, how much have supposed statistics and "fact" changed over time. We can only imagine.

[El Mamerro]

why where different races made? why not all the same colour of skin? do i think this is a mindblowing question cause i just got baked or because it actually is

 

 

I asked myself this question as well, and figured that if skin pigmentation is from melanin, there might be something about its properties that favored increases or decreases in quantity according to the environment. From wikipedia:

 

With humans, exposure to sunlight stimulates the liver to produce vitamin D. Because high levels of cutaneous melanin act as a natural sun screen, dark skin can be a risk factor for vitamin D deficiency.

In Scotland, which lies at a northern latitude, descendants of the Britons have white skin. When their skin is exposed to the meager sunlight, the scant amount of melanin their skin produces is unable to block the sunlight. Therefore, their bodies are able to make Vitamin D with the help of sunlight. Vitamin D, a vitamin found in

fish oil

, is necessary to prevent

rickets

, a bone disease caused by too little

calcium

.

In contrast, in Africa, which is near the equator, humans require intense sunlight to penetrate their dark skin to make Vitamin D. This is all well and good. However, when blacks lived in England during the Industrial Revolution, they were the first to develop symptoms of rickets, such as retarded growth, bowed legs and fractures because not enough sunlight was available.

Fortunately, in 1930, Vitamin D was discovered and dispensed as a supplement to add to the diet.

[10]

Now many common foods like milk and bread are Vitamin D fortified.

The most recent scientific evidence indicates that all humanity originated in Africa. It is most likely that the first people had relatively large numbers of eumelanin producing melanocytes and, accordingly, darker skin (as displayed by the indigenous people of Africa, today). As some of these original peoples migrated and settled in areas of Asia and Europe, the selective pressure for eumelanin production decreased in climates where radiation from the sun was less intense. Thus variations in genes involved in melanin production began to appear in the population, resulting in lighter hair and skin in humans residing at northern latitudes. Studies have been carried out to determine whether these changes were due to genetic drift or positive selection, perhaps driven by requirement for vitamin D. Of the two common gene variants known to be associated with pale human skin, Mc1r [11] does not appear to have undergone positive selection, while SLC24A5 [12] has.

As with peoples that migrated northward, those with light skin who migrate southward acclimatize to the much stronger solar radiation. Most people's skin darkens when exposed to UV light, giving them more protection when it is needed. This is the physiological purpose of sun tanning. Dark-skinned people, who produce more skin-protecting eumelanin, are less likely to suffer from sunburn and the development of melanoma, a potentially deadly form of skin cancer, as well as other health problems related to exposure to strong solar radiation, including the photodegradation of certain vitamins such as riboflavins, carotenoids, tocopherol, and folate.

[Dawood]

concerning the different races, that is in the quran where Allah mentions

 

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into different nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Al-Hujurat 49:13)

 

the meaning of this is so that we can get to know one another and still love eachother not based on tribalism or race but based on being part of mankind together.

 

And Stephen, I'm not ignoring your statements because I feel like I have nothing left to say to you, ask anyone whos been inhere a while, I can hold an argument for years.

I just don't like your disrespectful accusing. ignorant attitude.

And , no you havent backed up anything from the quran or the hadiths.

So far , there's been an argument as to whether it is appropriate 1400 years ago to marry a 9 year old. The people 1400 years ago didn't think it was inappropriate. Nobody objected to this marriage , even Muhammad's opponents ever said anything about it. It was something common then. Society was different then, we can sit here and discuss whether it's appropriate for a man to marry a woman who has biologically become mature. I'm sure the average 9 year old was more mature then than now, but when someone nowadays even mentions that it's innapropriate for a man to stick his penis in another mans ass , all of a sudden everyone comes out of the woodworks to defend the fags.

 

backwards.

 

Oh, and you can't just quote the quran and hadith without the proper understanding.

[StephenHarper]

I'm quoting the quran and hadiths in the context of the way most Muslims around the world seem to be interpreting it, by using it to justify violence, oppression of women etc. And in regards to the "proper understanding" you speak of.. that is just your bias in interpreting the quran. I'm not saying I don't have a bias towards it either, mines just based on the way I see the most of the muslim world interpreting the quran.

 

 

At least we both agree homosexuality is wrong.

[the.crooked]

No, what you are doing is interpreting in the manner that you interpret most muslims as practicing. The general extreme perception or interpretation that is presented as representative of a general consensus about it will never be mapped on to the personal practices of the individual within that supposed consensus.

[Dawood]

How can you say that your quoting the quran based on how most muslims around the world are interpreting it?

Do you know most muslims around the world? Give me an example. I'm in the muslim world right now, as we speak. I talk to muslims everyday and I ask them their opinions on issues. They don't use the quran to oppress women , they don't use it to condone violence. If someone is oppressing a woman, the quran is the biggest proof agaist him. What about the violence of your government? the terrorism of your govt.? Why don't you mention that?

 

 

I don't have a bias or an interpretation of the quran.

The only interpretation of the quran that is acceptable is the way the prophet Muhammad and his companions uderstood it , and that is documented well in the Quran and Sunnah, As for the interpretation of the quran , one well known interpretation (based on the quran and hadith itself) Is by Ibn kathir and it is a well known interpretation. I have no authority , nor does anyone else to interpret the quran based on what I want or what I think or what I feel.

 

If you don't like Islam, that's your business, but don't try to defame my way of life with ignorance and baseless claims. The violence you see in the news is a mixture of muslims who are ignorant of their religion and western media spin. Islam is not a violent religion, It was Islam that brought peace and advancement to the world when it was in it's darkest of ages. It was Islam who turned ignorant , murderous stone worshippers into just rulers who worshipped God alone and spread this beautiful way of life throughout the arabian peninsula, into Africa and Europe, Into Asia and eventually the world.

 

True Islam is as far from terrorism as the sun is from the earth, True Islam is a lamp, to light the way of humanity. unfortunately, today, true Islam is not what the majority of muslims are practicing.

[russell jones]

all of a sudden everyone comes out of the woodworks to defend the fags.

 

 

No matter what your religion says, this is extreme ignorance on your part Dawood. If you don't think it's ok to be racist, and you are talking about how the Koran says that people should learn to accept others from other tribes and such, then you shouldn't be homophobic.

[Dawood]

Ha, ha I knew this would come out of my statement.

 

My official position and opinion on homosexuality is that it is not something that a person is born with. It is not parallel to race. Homosexuality, as I see it is a perversion. It is not something ingrained in a persons genes or anything of the sort. Homosexuals can be reformed and I have seen at least one case where somebody was gay and decided that it was wrong and immoral and turned away from it.

 

Now if there are any gays on the thread and russell , if your gay, I'm not trying to bash you, I'm just stating my opinions on this. But you gotta admit, you just came out the woodworks and proved my point.

[MAR]

Yep exactly. History has been pretty twisted. Stuff written back that long ago must have definately changed with 1400 years of different language systems that have come into place. It would never be exact. This was exactly the point i was trying to make a fair few pages ago. How do you know that the "book" so to speak, that your religion follows, was as it was over 1000 years ago

 

remember when you played the game where you made up a sentence, and sent it around the circle in whispers, to see what you ended up with? that took 2 minutes and the words change, even when everyone was being serious. I cant follow any religion,that is based upon things that been passed down for that long a time, that anything could have changed the story, such specific detail cant be remembered for that long, a legend or a myth, a story can last forever. No one really knows what happened with achilles, but the story of him has lived on, no specific details, just a story. Its the same with this, a story that has constantly evolved. In a thousand years will any religion still be the same, exact to the point? everything must have been changed, so many times, that i have to think almost every detail is wrong.

 

I cant follow any religion, and cant figure out if i beleive in god or not.

 

 

Qumran and the fact that there are jews that have been seperated for those thousands of years never having contact and yet there is only one words difference between thier torahs? thats crazy.

 

Im not saying you have to be jewish Im just saying that its possible for people to maintain a document to near exactly how it was written thousands of years ago.

[StephenHarper]

unfortunately, today, true Islam is not what the majority of Muslims are practicing.

 

I want to know what makes you think your version of Islam is right? Why isn't the way all those Muslims bent on Jihad not right?

 

 

Do I actually need to give you examples of Muslim violence, women oppression etc?

 

 

If you don't like Islam, that's your business, but don't try to defame my way of life with ignorance and baseless claims.

 

I thought the point of this thread was to discuss the nature of God? Islam is based around belief in God and therefore should be fair game in this thread.

 

The violence you see in the news is a mixture of Muslims who are ignorant of their religion and western media spin. Islam is not a violent religion, It was Islam that brought peace and advancement to the world when it was in it's darkest of ages. It was Islam who turned ignorant , murderous stone worshipers into just rulers who worshiped God alone and spread this beautiful way of life throughout the Arabian peninsula, into Africa and Europe, Into Asia and eventually the world.

 

You say I am ignorant? You just said "Islam is not a violent religion," despite the fact that it causes so much death and destruction around the world, and the quran clearly allows for it. Who do you think you are fooling?

[fermentor666]

They're just trying to catch up to 2,000 years of Christian violence.

[coffeedependency]

islam doesn't cause death and destruction...

people cause death and destruction.

let's make a distinction between islam's metaphysics, traditions, et cetera... and the ideological interpretations of its text.

i wouldn't say that catholicism is a depraved and pedophilic religion because the clergy is fiddling alter boys.

yes, segments of muslim society have become markedly militant in recent years... but this arose from social phenomena, not some inherent islamic rage.

[russell jones]

Ha, ha I knew this would come out of my statement.

 

My official position and opinion on homosexuality is that it is not something that a person is born with. It is not parallel to race. Homosexuality, as I see it is a perversion. It is not something ingrained in a persons genes or anything of the sort. Homosexuals can be reformed and I have seen at least one case where somebody was gay and decided that it was wrong and immoral and turned away from it.

 

Now if there are any gays on the thread and russell , if your gay, I'm not trying to bash you, I'm just stating my opinions on this. But you gotta admit, you just came out the woodworks and proved my point.

 

 

I don't know what your point is, but I'm not gay but I am offended by you bashing gay people.

 

I don't think homosexuality is a choice, any more than me being heterosexual is a choice. I remember being into women when I was about 4, so I don't think I chose to be that way. I don't choose to get a hard-on when I see Beyonce shake her ass, it just happens. It's the same for gay people I'm sure. Anyways, why would someone choose the difficulty and heartache of being gay, when being straight would be so much easier? This is off topic, so I won't belabor the point except to say that this is the last frontier in civil rights.

[Dawood]

islam doesn't cause death and destruction...

people cause death and destruction.

let's make a distinction between islam's metaphysics, traditions, et cetera... and the ideological interpretations of its text.

i wouldn't say that catholicism is a depraved and pedophilic religion because the clergy is fiddling alter boys.

yes, segments of muslim society have become markedly militant in recent years... but this arose from social phenomena, not some inherent islamic rage.

 

 

well said, and this social phenomena that you mention is a mixture of poverty , being under oppressive regimes for centuries and next being murdered wholesale by people who claim to be liberating you.

[Dawood]

I don't know what your point is, but I'm not gay but I am offended by you bashing gay people.

 

I don't think homosexuality is a choice, any more than me being heterosexual is a choice. I remember being into women when I was about 4, so I don't think I chose to be that way. I don't choose to get a hard-on when I see Beyonce shake her ass, it just happens. It's the same for gay people I'm sure. Anyways, why would someone choose the difficulty and heartache of being gay, when being straight would be so much easier? This is off topic, so I won't belabor the point except to say that this is the last frontier in civil rights.

 

 

yeah, russell, this is off topic so I won't drag it out, I have an opinion, you have yours, they likely won't change but, I wanted to say ....4 ? you been diggin' chicks since 4 ?

 

there used to be a thread on this somewhere..

[russell jones]

I know four sounds young, but I remember a specific incidence of being at a wedding, and I got to dance with the bride since I was just a cute little kid, and she was holding me, and she had this low cut dress with titties everywhere, and I just remember being pretty excited about it. I only remember being into grown-up women until I was like 9 or 10 when the girls in my class started to get pretty interesting.

[Dawood]

see, now that sounds all the way natural to me.

If you were telling me a story about how your male barber used to rub on you in the 2nd grade while he was cutting your hair and it really excited you I'd be wondering what went wrong, bro, but that's just me.

[fermentor666]

Homosexuality is related to the topic because it's been a religious issue since religion existed. You could say it's a natural selection thing, or nature's way of fighting against over-population. And if you believed in God then you'd have to believe that he actually created homosexuality. Because God wouldn't want us to get overpopulated to the point of armaggedon, would he?

[MAR]

To play devils advocate, cant you say that rape and murder is also natural because people do it? Yeh, Im being extreme but what im trying to say is: just because a minority of people do something doesnt make it natural. Dont try to bring up that some animals have homosexual relationships; animals also rape and kill.

 

Not homophobic, but I doubt anyone has the balls to stand up to a question that touchy.

 

edit: the world is far from overpopulation.