discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[Shi#$ing Di#$nipples]

Oh christ, this thread is still here? Wow. Just wow.

[Dawood]

Then who created God?

 

You don't get it. Unfortunately some people choose confusion over perfect order. The existance of God is perfect order and sensibility while the absence of God is confusion and obsurdity.

Not that there could ever be an absence of God, but theoretically speaking, if there were no God there would just be confusion and I don't ascribe confusion to something that is as perfectly aligned as our universe is. It would be like ascribing dryness to water. Even if you want to call water dry it will always be wet.

[Dawood]

^^^HAHAHHA EXACTLY WHAT I WASS GONNA POINT OUT!

 

and mar....

 

 

 

 

There is where u said, god can be limited because of what we say....seriously...wtf..lol:lol: :lol:

 

and Dawood:

 

Yes, ur saying that a computer needs a more intellgient being for it to be created, such as HUMANS, but....remember, humans were NOT! the first form of life on earth. so are u saying god created dinosaurs?. what about before that. when micro-organisms started to develope, and then evolve into dinosaurs...? Science has PROVEN the existance of such creatures, and yet, NOT GOD.

So therefore i leave you with the point...who created god?? since according to u there MUST have been something before nothing.

 

The something before nothing is also a "theory" if you actually realised or not, i dont know. According to my theory, the universe has always existed...but then again, who am "I" theorise anything.....im a person, its my mind, and i wont stop saying it, but thats all god is...just a piece of your mind to make you feel better about yourself, and to give u something to belive in, something like god solves all your questions, God is the ultimate answer, and if you accept it, then u people will no longer go through life looking for questions to answer, thats what makes u so dull.

 

 

ha, ha, the dull thing is funny. Me believing in God does not make me go through life with all my questions answered.

Knowledge is infinite and there is no way to put it all in your pocket. That statement, sir was untrue, and directed at dull closet homosexual christian.....Maybe , maybe not.

[Dawood]

Considering that if the life of planet Earth were reduced to a day, the amount of time human beings capable of believing in God have been on it would amount to the blink of an eye at 11:59 PM, I'd say not believing in God is a pretty ancient idea.

 

 

I guess that's your assumption that ventures into the unknown, but I'm talking about recorded history and something tangible. I try not to delve too much into speculation.

[El Mamerro]

Speculation? You mean like speculating that the complexity and order of the universe could only have arised from an intelligent being, despite all the recorded and tangible data that describes how such order and complexity can arise from chaotic systems (which you still obviously haven't bothered to check out)?

 

I don't see a single assumption in my statement, unless you want to consider the idea that animals before humans worshipped God. The age of the Earth and the relatively miniscule amount of time belief in God has been around are fact, so to say non-belief is a new idea is ridiculous. I anything, it's a return to default standard.

[MAR]

^^^HAHAHHA EXACTLY WHAT I WASS GONNA POINT OUT!

 

and mar....

 

 

 

 

There is where u said, god can be limited because of what we say....seriously...wtf..lol:lol: :lol:

 

 

Yeh, sure, when you take things out of context they tend to mean different things. But who cares what you think.

[¤Shark¤]

well go on....U TELL US WHAT U MENT. cause it says quite clearly there that

 

Also by stating that G-d cant be real because of negitive things happen in this world limits him to a less then powerful being and therefore he's not godlike anymore.

 

Care to explain?

 

I dunno who cares what i think. u obviously do if u keep trying to shut me down hahahah!

[¤Shark¤]

You don't get it. Unfortunately some people choose confusion over perfect order. The existance of God is perfect order and sensibility while the absence of God is confusion and obsurdity.

Not that there could ever be an absence of God, but theoretically speaking, if there were no God there would just be confusion and I don't ascribe confusion to something that is as perfectly aligned as our universe is. It would be like ascribing dryness to water. Even if you want to call water dry it will always be wet.

 

What are you on about? Are you saying that if you choose to belive in god, everything will be in perfect order??? Or that because god exists our world is in perfect order??? PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF! ur not making any sense what so ever.

 

 

You say that if there was no god, there would just be confusion, this again is a wild generalisation. Our whole world is "theoretically" in a confused state. People have no clue whether god exists or not. this creates confussion, it creates anger, and in some cases it has created war, and it shoots the "perfect order" theory out the window.

 

Ha...our universe is "perfectly aligned" is it? What do you mean by this. Its perfect because we exist? It's perfect in the context that if god made it that way it would have to be perfect? Is it perfect because it has to be in order for us to survive? there are many ways to Describe and Define what is perfect. AGAIN could you PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF!:confused: :confused:

[¤Shark¤]

I guess that's your assumption that ventures into the unknown, but I'm talking about recorded history and something tangible. I try not to delve too much into speculation.

 

when u say recorded history i gather u are talking about god. Now how can that be recorded "history" when books such as the bible are written in thousands of different ways, in hundreds of different languages, and in thousands of different contexts all containing different beliefs....They are all from different religions, each one claiming that theirs is the ONE that has been written from history. "Born Again Christians" and "Muslim" are two completely different religions, each worshipping a "different" god, however each religion claims that their record of "history", passed through books such as the bible, are historically correct. if this is so, then there would NEVER be so many different versions of HISTORY would there.

[En Sabah Nur]

why the hell are there so many pages on a topic that is completely moot and void. gods are not real, get over it and move on.

[Smart]

Well... you guys heard him... topic's over.

[MAR]

I guess you better lock it up.

 

But before you do Ill explain this to shark.

 

"Also by stating that G-d cant be real because of negitive things happen in this world limits him to a less then powerful being and therefore he's not godlike anymore."

 

This means that you attempting to disprove G-d's exsistance by saying that things happen that you/we veiw as negitive in this world would potentially limit his/her/it's/G-d's power which by defenition would make him ungodlike (i.e. all powerful). Therefore the things that are commonly viewed as negitive must have a purpose, and since you are not all knowing you do not understand why they exsist. Sooo....

 

In conclusion one should not try to objectify G-d because in doing so they will find fault in G-d. The reason for this is because they are attempting to impose human confines on an omnipotent being.

 

And Im done for a while. I hope this clears some things up.

[Dawood]

What are you on about? Are you saying that if you choose to belive in god, everything will be in perfect order??? Or that because god exists our world is in perfect order??? PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF! ur not making any sense what so ever.

 

 

What i am saying is that everything IS IN FACT in perfect order due to the existance of God. If there were no god the planets would possibly smash into one another instead of being aligned perfectly into an orbit exactly the distance away from the sun (such as earth) that it needs to sustain life. please forgive me for not making myself completely clear the first time, I'm a very busy cat.

 

 

You say that if there was no god, there would just be confusion, this again is a wild generalisation. Our whole world is "theoretically" in a confused state. People have no clue whether god exists or not. this creates confussion, it creates anger, and in some cases it has created war, and it shoots the "perfect order" theory out the window.

 

 

people may be confused as to the reality of God, but it is not like that for a HUGE percentage of people. Also, the fact that wars and anger arise as a result of people believing in God or not holds no weight on whether the universe is in perfect order or not.

The universe IS in perfect order , it is just some people that cause confusion and mischief on the earth.

 

Ha...our universe is "perfectly aligned" is it? What do you mean by this. Its perfect because we exist? It's perfect in the context that if god made it that way it would have to be perfect? Is it perfect because it has to be in order for us to survive? there are many ways to Describe and Define what is perfect. AGAIN could you PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF!:confused: :confused:

 

No , not because we exist, what I mean by perfection is it is part of God's will and his creation. And yes, perfectly aligned, look at the sun, the moon , how they consistantly rise and set on the horizon. THe sun doesn't forget to rise, it is'nt confused , it knows it's job. It was ordered by God, the almighty to rotate on it's course perpetually and it does without fail. What about the rest of the planets that rotate on their respective orbits? and the galaxies that rotate around other super galaxies and so on and so forth. i don't know how a person looks at all of this fantastic display of perfect alignment and disbeleives in God.

 

And the example of those who disbelieve, is like the one who shouts to the flock of sheep that hears nothing but calls and cries. They are deaf, dumb and blind. So they do not understand. (Al-Baqarah 2:171)

[Dawood]

why the hell are there so many pages on a topic that is completely moot and void. gods are not real, get over it and move on.

 

 

really? oh, nobody told me. I was under the impression that most of the people in the world actually beleived in God and the only ones who don't are the ones who are drowning themselves in overindulgence and living under the reign of satan.

 

 

silly me.

[russell jones]

You don't get it. Unfortunately some people choose confusion over perfect order. The existance of God is perfect order and sensibility while the absence of God is confusion and obsurdity.

Not that there could ever be an absence of God, but theoretically speaking, if there were no God there would just be confusion and I don't ascribe confusion to something that is as perfectly aligned as our universe is. It would be like ascribing dryness to water. Even if you want to call water dry it will always be wet.

 

This does not answer my question. Who created God? If the Universe requires a creator, then how can God exist without a creator?

[russell jones]

really? oh, nobody told me. I was under the impression that most of the people in the world actually beleived in God and the only ones who don't are the ones who are drowning themselves in overindulgence and living under the reign of satan.

 

 

silly me.

 

Please explain to me how not believing in God is evil. I truly believe that I am a good person, not an evil one, and I do not believe in God.

[Cracked Ass]

really? oh, nobody told me. I was under the impression that most of the people in the world actually beleived in God and the only ones who don't are the ones who are drowning themselves in overindulgence and living under the reign of satan.

 

 

silly me.

 

I gave up trying to debate the larger issues with you a long time ago...agreed to disagree.

But here I see you are definitely under a false impression, namely that unbelievers are "drowning themselves in overindulgence".

I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs; I am lean and physically fit; I keep my brain sharp with various mental exercises; I do not believe in any gods. Other than confidence in my views, in what am I overindulging?

[Dawood]

I gave up trying to debate the larger issues with you a long time ago...agreed to disagree.

But here I see you are definitely under a false impression, namely that unbelievers are "drowning themselves in overindulgence".

I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs; I am lean and physically fit; I keep my brain sharp with various mental exercises; I do not believe in any gods. Other than confidence in my views, in what am I overindulging?

 

you know what I mean, there are exceptions to every rule, and by far people in western societies (and those who mimic them from the east) drown themselves in overindulgence

more often than not. So if you don't then I wasn't speaking about you. he, he, I always blame everyone in the house when something breaks and my kids will come crawling out of the woodworks to explain why it wasn't them except the one who really did it. It's funny how we feel the need to defend ourselves when we are not being addressed specifically, human nature I guess.

[Dawood]

Please explain to me how not believing in God is evil. I truly believe that I am a good person, not an evil one, and I do not believe in God.

 

I could get very deep and long winded here, but I won't.

I can't say you are an evil person. I don't even know you. I never said you were an evil person.

I understand disbeleif in God because I lived it for 25 years of my life until one day that changed for no particular reason. I didn't fall from a tree and live or survive a car wreck or go to jail or whatever, I just started to study things and reflect more and it just came to me.

I'm not saying your evil. don't get me wrong I'm not here for that, sometimes I may come off the wrong way because of the strong phrases I choose or my straightforward approach but if you knew me I'm not judgemental and I don't want to be.

I have non muslim friends that I have known for years and I don't call them evil. Of course I could debate you until one of us dies and you might get the impression that I think you are evil during the course of that discussion, but in fact only God knows your reality. So that's what I'm here to say today because I just wanted to clear that up so you didn't have a false impression of what I said.

[Dawood]

This does not answer my question. Who created God? If the Universe requires a creator, then how can God exist without a creator?

 

You just don't understand the nature of the creator, bro, haven't you been listening?;)

[StephenHarper]

You don't get it. Unfortunately some people choose confusion over perfect order. The existance of God is perfect order and sensibility while the absence of God is confusion and obsurdity.

QUOTE]

 

I think your muslim theology is a little off. Allah is never bound to a decision that he once made. He cares nothing about being consistent. Therefore, he did not hesitate, when circumstances required, to change and rescind his earlier revelations, even when they contained specific commandments and instructions to believers.

 

In other words, Allah is irrational and inconsistent, definately not the"perfect order and sensibility" that you describe.

[russell jones]

I could get very deep and long winded here, but I won't.

I can't say you are an evil person. I don't even know you. I never said you were an evil person.

I understand disbeleif in God because I lived it for 25 years of my life until one day that changed for no particular reason. I didn't fall from a tree and live or survive a car wreck or go to jail or whatever, I just started to study things and reflect more and it just came to me.

I'm not saying your evil. don't get me wrong I'm not here for that, sometimes I may come off the wrong way because of the strong phrases I choose or my straightforward approach but if you knew me I'm not judgemental and I don't want to be.

I have non muslim friends that I have known for years and I don't call them evil. Of course I could debate you until one of us dies and you might get the impression that I think you are evil during the course of that discussion, but in fact only God knows your reality. So that's what I'm here to say today because I just wanted to clear that up so you didn't have a false impression of what I said.

 

Thanks for the clarification Dawood.

[russell jones]

You just don't understand the nature of the creator, bro, haven't you been listening?;)

 

 

Yes I have been. I have been waiting for you to answer the question that if the universe requires a creator then why does not the creator require a creator? I think it is a very simple and logical question. You have not answered the question in your previous posts. Instead, you talked about how the universe would be unordered and disorganized without a creator. You did not answer the question of who created God.

[Qawee]

dawood:

my friend told me you can't do salat if you have a tattoo, and if you have a tattoo, when you die you go straight to hell.

Why?

[Dawood]

You don't get it. Unfortunately some people choose confusion over perfect order. The existance of God is perfect order and sensibility while the absence of God is confusion and obsurdity.

QUOTE]

 

I think your muslim theology is a little off. Allah is never bound to a decision that he once made. He cares nothing about being consistent. Therefore, he did not hesitate, when circumstances required, to change and rescind his earlier revelations, even when they contained specific commandments and instructions to believers.

 

In other words, Allah is irrational and inconsistent, definately not the"perfect order and sensibility" that you describe.

 

 

Allah is All mighty , All wise and does what he will for whatever purpose he sees fit. I would hardly call multiple revelations for different groups of people in different times irrational and inconsistant because he consistantly sent the same message to people since people were created, the only things that ever changed through the times were laws and prohibitions based on the level of that particular peoples understanding. In other words Allah, created them, He knows them best. He does ot place burdens on them more than what they can bear so the law coincides with the peoples needs. The messsage has always been the same with all of the prophets, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses , Noah, Abraham, Adam, etc. etc.

 

and that it to worship the one true God , the creator of the heavens and earth, alone and to reject false dieties. simple. consistant and rational.

[Dawood]

dawood:

my friend told me you can't do salat if you have a tattoo, and if you have a tattoo, when you die you go straight to hell.

Why?

 

 

ha, ha, your friend is ignorant. I have 4 tattoos from before I was muslim and what is said about tatoos is that they are forbidden and it is a sin, but it's not connected to the acceptance of your salat. And when a peson dies and is ressurected he returns back to his "fitrah" meaning the natural state he was born , so the Tattoos will be gone when he is raised up.

 

Also, Allah forgives everything before Islam so these are many proofs against your friend and if you need something from a scholar to show him I can get it. with the proofs from the Quran and sunnah.

[Dawood]

Yes I have been. I have been waiting for you to answer the question that if the universe requires a creator then why does not the creator require a creator? I think it is a very simple and logical question. You have not answered the question in your previous posts. Instead, you talked about how the universe would be unordered and disorganized without a creator. You did not answer the question of who created God.

 

 

That's not a question that a muslim would even attempt to answer. That's something like going to your dad and asking him is there another guy boning your mom.

 

it's just not like that, Allah is the creator, he always was and always will be. He has no beginning or no end.

Einstien belived this about energy, and energy is not even considered an intellegent life form, so then what about the creator of eveything who is all knowing all seeing?

 

Do you believe a fuzzy haired Jew or God. (no offense , Mar)

[ides]

God is perfect and doesn't need a creator, where as if the imperfect created this world and life (ie "science") then it would require a cause or beginning.

You can apply Occam's razor, but you'll keep coming back to the fact that God is perfect.

 

If you want to find answers you have to look from different perspectives (I'm an atheist).

[the.crooked]

in most respects, im gonna go with the fuzzy haired jew. in conceeding that statement about einstien's conception of energy, why could you not see God as that energy?

[Dawood]

Ok , good question, if you want to see god as that energy, then I would have to clarify a few things about my belief on God. See, energy is a created thing. E.g. Something that has no ability to produce itself from absolutely nothing. Energy can produce more energy, yes that's absolutely possible but energy cannot come from nothing so to me energy is itself a created thing since it has no ability to create itself from nothing nor does it know anything.

Energy is not all knowing.

One of the first things muslims learn about is the names and attributes of Allah. in short what is the nature of God (and what God is not).

So, According to Islam God has to be not only omnipitent, All knowing All seeing, the only one who has knowledge of the unseen (meaning the future etc) and other things. He is the giver of security and peace, the one who punishes the wicked, the one who created everything and consistantly nourishes and sustains everything. Ok, God is all of this, but on top of that we must add that God does not resemble his creation in any way (and I'll add a side note saying this is where many christians got confused because they attribute lordship to jesus and think of God like a man) God is not like us , nor is he like anything he created he is unique in all aspects, he is not energy becuase again, energy is created and can be destroyed or burned off. God is free from all needs and imperfections. This is just a small example, there are thousands of volumes of Islamic books that explain just this one topic we're talking about. It's actually the most important topic in Islam and the arabic word is called tawheed google it and read about it, tawheed is deep. I hope my words clear up a few things. It's just a drop of water in an ocean really though....