.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lil_5panky Oh so it's the ANTI-war people who are the "trendy" ones now huh? Yeah, I guess all those fools hopping on the patriotic "i'll do whatever my govt says sir" bandwagon left and right are the REAL independent thinkers. :lol: :lol: :lol: Oh and putting dictators in power wasnt a "mistake", the US has a long and continuous history of doing that to gain control over resources in other parts of the world...if you really believe that the goal of an unprovoked attack on Iraq is to "make people free" I'm sorry but you are obvioulsy an uneducated retard. when i was lil...i was such a leftist... then i matured i came to the realization that the us is fucked but do i care no and yes left is trendy its fucking obvious is that a bad thing not at all but look at how people view the right all dumb red neck white power people who hate every1 else racist pigs and yes...thats the trendy thing to do...be an asshole grow up and grasp the real world...our government sucks...i hate it...but my family and friends are americans...and if "freedom" is just a propaganda term to get people like me to be goons and get blown up...more power to them if the enemy is wiped out...there is no threat stop thinking left is some underground idea...look at all the democrats...i live in boston...ALL LIBERALS...who are all rich white people...whatever...i bet the twist in joe millionaire is that girl has a 7 inch cock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil_5panky Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Newsflash Democrats do not equal "leftists"...they're not even necessarily liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 the democrats in congress lost every shred of credibility when they voted to give george w. bush the sole discretion of issuing the order the launch a war agaisnt iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 i take it back hey ***...sorry to bug for facts again...but when did that whole thing happen? i didnt even know until a few weeks ago...i just figured that bush just liked to talk a lot...not that his words actually meant that he could goto war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil_5panky Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by .:armr:. but look at how people view the right all dumb red neck white power people who hate every1 else racist pigs not far off the mark, as your next quotes prove... grow up and grasp the real world...our government sucks...i hate it...but my family and friends are americans...and if "freedom" is just a propaganda term to get people like me to be goons and get blown up...more power to them if the enemy is wiped out...there is no threat Yeah, genocide against anyone who your oil-mad govt decides is the "enemy" is the solution...and you think this makes you MATURE??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 would you rather be at risk...or others LIFE ISNT FAIR thats the mature lesson to learn people die...why? because shit happens DEAL WITH IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 sometime in 02 i think. Its true though. I just had it reconfirmed while watching cnn. Originally posted by .:armr:. i take it back hey ***...sorry to bug for facts again...but when did that whole thing happen? i didnt even know until a few weeks ago...i just figured that bush just liked to talk a lot...not that his words actually meant that he could goto war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil_5panky Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Theres a difference between understanding that "shit happens" and saying "I support this shit happening, even though it doesnt have to"... Besides, like I said before...how is creating even MORE hatred towards americans supposed to make me safer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 thanks :) wow...their almost as dumb as me look...i ramble...arguing a pretty one sided bully war... and all the obviously educated and politically active people are against it but hey...i try:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 see this difference is....the United States has suffered Pearl Harbor, Tim McVeigh and 9/11. Not to shabby for 50 years. The middle east has been in violent wars far more throughout history than the United States then you got the Arab Israeli wars that started in the 60's. The Lebanese civil war. The Iran Iraq war. The Afghani war. The Kashmere India war and the Gulf War. Belive these people can be just as hell bent on revenge as the United States with less to lose. "people with nothing to lose fight the hardest"-Living Legends. The people we will fight against in Iraq are not coming home to GI bill educations and health plans, wives kids and suvs..nahhh...they will be fighting a war against people invading them that have all that. And if you think in anyway thats gonna increase our saftey and not fuel millions that will have been permananantly scarred, if not allready, to want to kill us. then your tripping. life under a cruel dictator is better than life in a hellish warzone. if you dont want to be attacked, than maybe pushing an agenda that looks to resolve conflicts and does not advocate premptive bloody wars will actually increase your safety. im not stupid man. My lady told me today that a random truck stop revealed a bomb. if that bomb traveled 15 miles down the freeway and detonated my life would be irreversably changed. It would completely disrupt my life as i know it indefinitley. The attacks that american civilians are at risk for are so huge that realisticlly there is no way to protect our selfes. I dont wish this on anyone as i would never want to do it to any innocent in the name of protecting myself. So with out iraq attacking us, with out the neighbors of iraq pressing for us to invade, for your own and my saftey as well....nonviolence is the way to go. people generally dont get shot for not making threats and not pointing guns. Originally posted by .:armr:. would you rather be at risk...or others LIFE ISNT FAIR thats the mature lesson to learn people die...why? because shit happens DEAL WITH IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by Lil_5panky Theres a difference between understanding that "shit happens" and saying "I support this shit happening, even though it doesnt have to"... Besides, like I said before...how is creating even MORE hatred towards americans supposed to make me safer? fear my good friend that makes you safer they made me have fear of them now its our turn tada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 but ***, do you think these people would be a lot happier with a reformed government? its doesnt have to be a democrazy...i feel a million people ARENT smarter than one (good nofx song)...but hey...theres a chance it will be better as far as ive seen (which isnt much) but the afghani's seem a lil but happier we really dont know what the majority of iraqi's think we see anti war signs but who knows maybe theres guns behind the camera "keep those hands high" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by ******** im not stupid man. My lady told me today that a random truck stop revealed a bomb. if that bomb traveled 15 miles down the freeway and detonated my life would be irreversably changed. It would completely disrupt my life as i know it indefinitley. The attacks that american civilians are at risk for are so huge that realisticlly there is no way to protect our selfes. I dont wish this on anyone as i would never want to do it to any innocent in the name of protecting myself. So with out iraq attacking us, with out the neighbors of iraq pressing for us to invade, for your own and my saftey as well....nonviolence is the way to go. people generally dont get shot for not making threats and not pointing guns. :( that is what i fear... but that is what i feel this war will stop...fire with fire:confused: ...maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 and not to rant or disrespect anyone who supports the military. but my initial concern goes to the hundred thousand plus gi's that are on the front lines of this pointless conflict. it is them i am most concerned about. i am antiwar because i am anti americans dieing at the hand of an ignorant non democratically elected president who has a personal score to settle. when this war begins and when they try to take baghdad..the body count will rise to the thousands. thousands upon thousands of innocent americans lost and thousands upon thousands of familys suffering from the loss to make sure that they couldnt attack us. If the risk for loss has allready been accepted, why not wait until the risk is more defined and pronounced until we take action? We have the world standard for intelligence and the world was bending over backwards to assist us in fighting terror. Were has that focus gone? Since alot of those countrys are opposed to our current plan of action.... leaving more cells active, more plans of attack made.....all while we are lining up american soldiers to fight a war that the world says we should nto start. could it have somthing to do with a completely downward spiraling economy that does not leave a president with only two years left much solid ground to gain re-election on? maybe........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Re: WAR ON IRAQ Originally posted by ******** and what really stuns me, is that this war is not being propelled by esteemed military minds.....not at all and it never was. this war is soley a so called preventitive measure pushed by the current bush administration. even the motherfucking cia states iraq couldnt do shit to us. and whats worse, is the CONGRESS GAVE PUSH THE POWER TO SINGLEHANDEDLY DECLARE WAR BY HIMSELF...CAN YOU BELIVE THAT SHIT??????? [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 *** that has to be the most convincing point i have friends in the military but the funny thing is...they want this war they really dont know any better...but they joined because they wanted to there is no draft and if there was...we obviously dont chase after the dodgers look at our past 2 presidents BUT look at the gulf war...the us casualities were very low...and many from friendly fire if/when we take major cities...most civilians wouldve already been evacuated...ive heard talk about ground forces being used for these erbanaktions...but apaches will probably blow the hell out of it long before they get sent in lets just hope theres no civilian walls...then were the ones getting fucked in the ass...and because of slimballs like him...using human shields...this is why i support it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:armr:. Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 but hey...***...europe...all you anti war people who werent complete dicks...thanks for giving me a diff view...and challenging my points...very helpful to put my thoughts together...ive been beating a dead horse by going on about it...and being a minority on this board has made it that much worse...and being so mis informed haha...shitty cnn...thanks for posting those pure news sites too...but im done trying to get attention haha PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SIVIK Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 We deffinatly getting some strong opinons up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020...0902&s=vest&c=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 and i guess is what it really comes down to........ is what the fuck is up with george bush?? sorry...i hadda lotta mountain dew today. man.... when your bitch ass dodges the draft, when your father is the vice president of the man who started the drug war and your abusing alchohol and cocaine, when your vice president is buying oil off the man your father started a war against, your administration overlooks warning of brutal attacks..... and when your giving tax cuts to the rich after being in what appears to be a rigged election you spent flying around in a corporate jet (enrons) only to have that corp. defraud tax payer out of millions in unpaid income taxes not to mention ripping off all your employess....... what american in their right mind would give this man the power to start a war??????????????????? i really just dont get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Originally posted by BROWNer http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020...0902&s=vest&c=1 this is the reason people in the middle east want to kill americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 article | Posted February 13, 2003 Letter From Iraq by Jeremy Scahill Baghdad Print this article E-mail this article Write to the editors raq has become one bizarre series of contradictions. Construction of what the government boasts will be one of the world's largest mosques continues in Baghdad, as does work on a new presidential palace, described by one official as being "like our version of the White House." On Abu Nuwas Street, workers are putting the finishing touches on the base for a new sculpture by the much-revered Iraqi artist Mohammed Ghani. The work: a great flying carpet, inspired by one of the tales of Thousand and One Nights. In fact, it's difficult to go anywhere in central Baghdad without seeing workers building or repairing something. But in homes throughout the country, there is a different sort of labor under way, and it is being carried out with much greater urgency. Families are digging wells for water and buying up canned goods, cooking gas and heating oil. Wealthier families are buying generators. Some Iraqis say they will leave the city and head for family farms or homes in more rural areas. Others say they will not leave, some of them fearing looting in the event of internal strife. Among ordinary Iraqis, the enthusiastic rhetoric of defending the country against a US invasion has now been replaced by the stark realization that the eleventh hour has arrived. On the surface, the daily routine persists. The streets remain congested with cars in a country where twenty-five gallons of gas costs little more than $2. The markets are crowded. Old men slam dominoes on tables as they puff nargila pipes. Children have just finished their midterm recess and are returning to school; their parents go to work. But almost no one harbors illusions. "All of us are scared because we tasted it before," said Aqbal Fartus, a primary school teacher in the southern port city of Basra. Fartus lives in the heart of the so-called no-fly zones, where US and British warplanes--with no United Nations mandate--have regularly bombed Iraq since 1998. On the morning of January 25, 1999, her oldest son, 6-year-old Heider, was killed by a US missile as he played in front of his home. His brother, Mustafa, lost two fingers in the attack and lives with shrapnel in his back. Four years after Heider's death, Fartus learned that she was once again pregnant. "We want this baby to improve our situation," she said--but she lost her baby two days after the interview. "It's hard," she said. "It's very, very, very hard because you can't do much other than wait for the bombs to fall on our city." Meanwhile, the UN is already preparing for its role during the war and in the administration of a post-Saddam Iraq, as made clear in internal documents obtained by The Nation. One document says that "planning figures" for war foresee up to 800,000 Iraqis crossing the border into neighboring countries to seek asylum, with 500,000 asylum seekers stranded at borders inside Iraq. The greatest number, according to the report, would seek to enter Iran. Another document indicates that the UN is anticipating what it calls a "medium impact" scenario: "The military campaign encounters significant resistance, but ends after a more protracted period of two to three months. As a result of a large-scale ground offensive supported by aerial bombardments, there would be considerable destruction of critical infrastructure and sizable internal and external population movements." The report says there is a "major risk" of civil unrest in areas around Iraq that is "likely to result in high levels of casualties." In what could be a telling indication of the kind of timeline US-led forces are working on, the UN predicts it will be able to regain access to southern Iraq approximately thirty days after the start of the conflict but does not foresee reaching Baghdad until three or more months after the war begins. A Western humanitarian official says that many UN workers have already begun quietly leaving the country in anticipation of massive attacks, although officially they are taking "vacations." By the end of February, some UN agencies will be operating with only skeletal staffs. The quiet departure, says the source, is intended to avoid creating panic and the impression that war is imminent. The UN has four "phases" describing its security status in the country. Officially, it remains at Phase I, the lowest status, but "they all know what is coming," said the official, who asked not to be identified. "It's just not official policy yet." Several foreign embassies have already withdrawn their personnel or say they will do so soon. Perhaps the most revealing UN document is a draft report of the UN's Executive Committee on Peace and Security, dated January 7, 2003, which discusses potential scenarios involving UN assistance to a successor government in Iraq. "In the short term, the external force waging the war will be in command and may administer the country or impose a certain authority," the document says. "Gradually, after four to eight months, the UN may be given more room for limited responsibility in terms of governance and the establishment of security and justice." It goes on to say, "It is unlikely that the UN will play a major role similar to that in Eastern Slavonia [the region of Croatia that borders Serbia] or East Timor. The UN role is likely to be determined according to the request of either the new authority or the foreign forces that will provoke a regime change through war." In other words, the UN will do only what the United States tells it to do, or allows it to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Letter From Iraq (page 2 of 2) Print this article E-mail this article Write to the editors he document discusses establishing a "transitional administration," saying UN agencies "might be asked to assist in nation and institution building." It envisions two major components of operations: "1) the first 100 days, and 2) Road Map for Reform (2 to 3 years of operations)." The document asserts that "even under a new type of government, it is likely that the country may slip back into its old ways" and that the UN "would also expect" that the new regime would make "political overtures to important neighbors and major powers at the same time as disciplinary measures against their agents in Iraq--the arrest and execution of Israeli, Iranian and US/UK agents." It continues, "In this mentality it would be quite consistent, indeed positively advisable, to allow the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights into Iraq to denounce the excesses of the previous regime while reminding all concerned of the where the [sic] new 'red lines' were placed." The Iraqi government is well into war mode. Television is rife with videos of members of the Fedayou Saddam (Saddam Militia), marching in Hezbollah-type garb. Military parades are being staged for journalists. The Baath Party is giving weapons to anyone who signs up for the party, and gunshop owners report significant increases in purchases. While the official line is that there will be fierce resistance across Iraq, privately officials seem resigned to the idea that the ground battle against a US-led invading force will ultimately be fought in Baghdad. While the government may quite possibly consolidate its resistance in the capital and offer fierce resistance, it is unlikely it could do so elsewhere in the country. The tension and fears in Basra and elsewhere in the south, with its overwhelming Shiite population, are clearer than in Baghdad. Already the region suffers like no other in Iraq. People are caught between government repression and a deadly US-led policy of sanctions and regular bombing. The area will be a major focal point of any war, as it borders Kuwait, a certain entry point for invading US forces. "We have learned a great lesson since the Gulf War," said a Basra resident who asked to remain anonymous for fear of reprisal. "America told us to rise up and then watched the people get massacred in the streets. You can't imagine what happened here. This time, no one will leave their homes." The hatred of the government in the south is clear, and there is little question that a change of government would be welcomed. But "we don't want the change to come through America's bombs," said another individual who requested anonymity. "Some people see it as enduring bombing, hoping to survive and then starting over without him [saddam]. But most of us want a peaceful change brought about from within. We don't want anymore misery here." There are rumors that Iraqi generals in the south are waiting for the right moment to rise up; the ordinary army there is staffed largely by unenthusiastic, poor, hungry soldiers who residents say will not defend the regime. But the government also has loyalists in the area, including an extensive network of secret police, as well as Baath Party and other militias. "All of them will fight for the regime, but the rest of us will stay in our homes and watch and wait," said a southern Shiite. Hundreds of Iraqi imams, including those at the holy shrines at Najaf and Karbala, have signed on to a fatwa (a religious decree) calling for jihad against any invading forces. "This is not a war against Iraq, this is a war against Islam," says Abdul Rihad, the imam at the biggest Shiite mosque in Basra. He adds, "We don't like to fight. But if war is imposed on the Iraqi people, they should fight for their land, their blood, their family. But we do not want that, because this war will be a loser for both sides." Even those Iraqis in the south who said they would welcome a change of government also said they would fight US forces if they attempted to occupy their area. And perhaps that is what Saddam Hussein is banking on. As the UN and the Iraqi populations wait, it is worth considering that the most striking fact about the UN documents is their acknowledgment that a new regime in Baghdad brought about by war would probably be much like the old one, sans Saddam Hussein. Such a conclusion reinforces the sense that there has thus far been no satisfactory answer to the question that millions of people around the world have been asking through protest for months: Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 "All of us have heard this term 'preventive war' since the earliest days of Hitler. I recall that is about the first time I heard it. In this day and time...I don't believe there is such a thing; and, frankly, I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing." --President Dwight Eisenhower, 1953, upon being presented with plans to wage preventive war to disarm Stalin's Soviet Union "Our position is that whatever grievances a nation may have, however objectionable it finds the status quo, aggressive warfare is an illegal means for settling those grievances or for altering those conditions." --Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, the American prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials, in his opening statement to the tribunal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2699352a.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spade Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Originally posted by Europe http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0302/gallery.world.peace.protest/gallery.south.africa.johann.jpg'> Johannesburg, South Africa http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0302/gallery.world.peace.protest/gallery.germany.berlin.ap.jpg'> 350.000 protesters at the Brandenburger Tor in Berlin, Germany Does that say " Bush is a Butcher"?????????????????? "Hey mom, can you find my chemical warheads? I seem to have misplaced them." " Yes dear, there at the bottom of the stairs........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferris Bueller Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 What has been getting me is that many of the world news networks don't even show footage of the huge demonstrations and protests taking place in Europe. It's like they don't want us (being the majority of the US population) to see what other countries' people think of the possibility of war. Also, on the news, do you ever see brief interviews of U.S. citizens and their take on the possibility of war? I sure haven't. It's always some U.S. diplomat saying "WAR WAR WAR"...just pisses me off. I thought this was a people's government...but all I see are big wigs running the show. If America took action, which we will, I feel it would be better if the military worked to take Saddam out of power. As someone said, war should be the last option... It makes me very uneasy that we have developed tensions with two different countries as well....it's like all hell broke loose within the administration as soon as the nuclear power plants were started back up so N.K. could provide power for it's people. This Big Brother thing is bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ArtvandaL Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 FREE PALESTINE!!! NO WAR ON IRAQ!! FUCK ISRAEL!!! what ever happened to that guy called "FUCK ISRAEL?" he was funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodice_ripper Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Originally posted by .:armr:. when i was lil...i was such a leftist... then i matured i came to the realization that the us is fucked but do i care no aww, a self righteous haiku. how mature. I always find that when I double space my points I tend to look dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grittylifer Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 and i hope every one realizes that the weapons of mass destruction we are about to ignite a war over were provided to Iraq by the US under the reagan BUSH administration. Further more, not one peep was heard when Saddam gassed his own civilians in 1988. We didnt say shit. We didnt do shit except give him more funding and more weapons. To let George W. Bush wage this war in the name of protecting america is the biggest travesty to american history and ideals that americans of every aspect will have to shoulder for the rest of time. The civilian body count from the first gulf war was around 2 million. One third of the body count of the jewish holocaust in a short 8 week war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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