1. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum...
    You are currently logged out and viewing our forum as a guest which only allows limited access to our discussions, photos and other forum features. If you are a 12ozProphet Member please login to get the full experience.

    If you are not a 12ozProphet Member, please take a moment to register to gain full access to our website and all of its features. As a 12ozProphet Member you will be able to post comments, start discussions, communicate privately with other members and access members-only content. Registration is fast, simple and free, so join today and be a part of the largest and longest running Graffiti, Art, Style & Culture forum online.

    Please note, if you are a 12ozProphet Member and are locked out of your account, you can recover your account using the 'lost password' link in the login form. If you no longer have access to the email you registered with, please email us at info@12ozprophet.com and we'll help you recover your account. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum (and don't forget to follow @12ozprophet in Instagram)!

SOMALIA

Discussion in 'Channel Zero' started by KaBar, May 3, 2003.

  1. KaBar

    KaBar 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
    Messages:
    1,397

    SOMALIA

    Discussion started by KaBar - May 3, 2003

    There is something entirely new going on in Somalia. I don't know how much of a chance it has of success, but it's at least worth noticing.

    Somalia was the site of the little military tragi-comedic drama that resulted in the movie "Black Hawk Down." I have, myself, posted statements on this site referring to Somalia as a "Third World shithole" and advocating that the U.S. and Europe simply allow them to starve, since they bite the hand that feeds them.

    HOWEVER--it has come to my attention that there is a serious effort afoot to try and maintain Somalia as what is called a kritarchy (a government by judges, very much like what is described in the Bible as existed among the Jews after Moses received the Law.)

    This type of government makes the tribe responsible for the actions of an individual. So if Muhammad is a member of the Hawiye tribe, and he robs a bank, his entire tribe is held accountable and must make the theft good. Of course, families are members of tribes, and the group of tribes (six in Somalia) make up a "Nation." In this case, the Somali nation, just as the various Native American tribes of the Souix make up the "Souix Nation." If a young Souix robbed the First National Bank of Iowa, the entire Souix nation would be held accountable, and would have to repay the stolen money. Correspondingly, the tribes are responsible for controlling and taking care of their members. There are no nursing homes in a society of this nature. Individuals belong to families. Families belong to tribes. Cousin marriage is encouraged, because it strengthens family bonds. Tribes belong to Nations.

    The various tribal councils of the six tribes of Somalia are seriously trying to establish a means of providing "estates" on tribal land (similar to the way that only Mexican citizens may own land within 50 miles of the Mexican coast. Foreigners may only "lease" land, albeit, for 99 years.)

    In this way, the tribes can continue their traditional life, and Europeans (and presumably Americans) could come to Somalia, lease a piece of beautiful coastline, for 99 years (or whatever) build a house there, or a hotel or some other business, employ Somalis and live dirt cheap. When the lease is up, however, it reverts to it's original owners, the tribe who owns the land.

    There are NO TAXES in Somalia. (I did not know this.) There are police and local governments, but they are very weak, and report to the local tribal leaders. The chief reason that warlords get support is that each tribe is afraid that one of the other tribes, or the U.N., or some outside power will come into Somalia and try to establish a strong central government.

    Think of Somalia as the "Confederate States of Somalia" except that they won the civil war, and the central government was dismantled.

    Look at your computer screen closely. Do you see this large pie? It is CROW PIE, and Ka-Bar is taking a great big bite. (crunch, crunch.) Mmmm. Wonderful. I just love having to admit I was wrong.
     
    KaBar - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    1,397
    - Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
  2. Rectum

    Rectum 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,501

    Rectum - Replied May 3, 2003

    fascinating
     
    Rectum - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    1,501
    - Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
  3. Rectum

    Rectum 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,501

    Rectum - Replied May 3, 2003

    i was hoping for pictures of corpses
     
    Rectum - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    1,501
    - Joined:
    Nov 13, 2002
  4. metallix

    metallix 12oz Elite Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,955

    metallix - Replied May 3, 2003

    ^ you just took the best two positions ..

    anyway....thats kinda great..self rule of the people..interesting what comes out of the world when greed isn't the primary motivator for things
     
    metallix - Rank: 12oz Elite Member - Messages:
    2,955
    - Joined:
    Oct 7, 2001
  5. chicken bone

    chicken bone Guest

    chicken bone - Replied May 4, 2003


    How can you just overgeneralize an entire group of people by the decisions its government makes? Do YOU agree with every decision the American government makes? Do you feel responsible for every choice George Bush makes? The way you think, you are responsible for every single action any US citizen makes whether they are an angel or devil. You talk about 'they they they' but who the hell is 'they'? Do you think a baby being born in Somalia chooses to live there, or that before its conception it vouched vote and support for whichever government (according to you), 'bites the hand that feeds them'?

    You are so ignorant its amazing, considering how much experience you have, its a shocking that you have become so close-minded. Has old age shocked your tiring brain or what? I don't think Somalian babies deserve to starve because of the choices some crazy TNG honcho or the al-Ittihad al-Islamiya or fucking whoever... If you agree that babies and innocent civilians should be held account for occurances instigated by governmental groups out-of-line with US/European wishes then well you are disgusting. Most civilians have done nothing to deserve to be born into a country of famine, where they have no choice but to accept their fate.
     
  6. chicken bone

    chicken bone Guest

    chicken bone - Replied May 4, 2003

    I've also understood from previous posts that you've advocated the same mentality in regards to other 'third-world countries'... Its not the fault of mothers and babies when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and corruption reigns supreme within the ranks of the government and 'upper-class'!

    No wonder so many people are anti-American... Its because of selfish, patriotic, shell-shocked fools like you who fail to see the bigger picture.
     
  7. some pittsburgh flavor

    some pittsburgh flavor 12oz Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,936

    some pittsburgh flavor - Replied May 4, 2003

    and again, kabar, you didn't make a point. just facts again.
    i agree with the bone.
     
    some pittsburgh flavor - Rank: 12oz Elite Member - Messages:
    4,936
    - Joined:
    Mar 31, 2001
  8. KaBar

    KaBar 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
    Messages:
    1,397

    KaBar - Replied May 4, 2003

    Some people can't be pleased. (Yawn.) The people of Somalia manage to try and create at least something good out of an admittedly shit sandwich situation, and you guys appraently can't see it.

    Somali kids don't get a choice about where they live, who they are or the life they grow up in, any more than you do, or I do. In fact, a tribal society is a lot more restrictive and rigid a life in many ways than the post-industrial society we live in. You are who you are. Spare me the self-righteousness. Bill Clinton sent our soldiers there with inadequate tank and air support. It was a major fuck-up, and he later admitted it was. The Somali warlord, Aideed, I think it was, immediately realized the U.S. military tactical weakness and exploited it. Clinton should have then hammered his ass from the air, but, being an idiot, Clinton withdrew the U.S. troops.

    I can see a Somali society in the future that uses it's empty, unspoiled beaches to bring in millions of First World tourist dollars. All they need to do is guarantee the safety and security of the tourists. They can use the fact that they have "no government" to allow Western corportations to base their headquarters there to avoid statist taxes from socialist dicksuckers in Europe and the United States. They could be rich, and free, if they did it right. A libertarian veneer over a traditional tribal/nation society.

    Either you can see it or you can't. As long as they make sure nobody harms a single tourist, they will be rolling in money. One criminal in a place like Sayulita or Kerala costs the local economy hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe millions) in lost tourist revenue. Nobody wants to get murdered in Paradise. They want to go, to enjoy themselves, and to come home with nice photographs and a tan, and empty pockets. Works out perfectly for the locals. Their worst problem (isolation from the First World economy) becomes their greatest asset. But, from what I hear, Port Moresby has the worse crime rate in the world. Go figure. Sort of like Jamaica, only in the Western Pacific. Wretched poverty in the middle of paradise. But of course, in Jamaica you have a genuine ruling class and no genuine tribal structure to speak of, thanks to the legacy of BRITISH SLAVERY. Or perhaps, another example would be Brazil, but again, no tribal structure, due to the legacy of PORTUGESE SLAVERY. I won't belabor this point any more. Most of the slave trade was conducted on Africa's western coast, out of Zanzibar, Mali, Gold Coast, etc. Somalia had little or none, so far as I can tell, probably because they have been Muslim for so long. The Muslims cheerfully sold off the animists, though, from around 700 to the 1860's. Brazil, BTW, was the biggest customer, with about 35% of the business. The U.S. only received about 5% or so. Today, where is the only places in the world where slave markets still exist? Mali, Togo, Benin, Ghana, Nigeria and Burkina Faso. And the buyers? Cote d'Ivorie and Gabon, mainly, and some in Chad. Cruel and exploitive, for certain, and just like in times past, it's all about tribe and religion. And money and power. BUT NOT RACE. Race isn't important to slavers any more today than it was in 1633. The powerful dominate the powerless. It sucks, but what can one do? It's the way of the world, and certainly not just the good ol' U.S. of A.
     
    KaBar - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    1,397
    - Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
  9. chicken bone

    chicken bone Guest

    chicken bone - Replied May 4, 2003

    Wait, what's your point? You are still replying with your usual bland over-generalized rhetoric while managing to allude every one of my points. You have managed to decrease your world-view into a marginals and statistics. Selfish..
     
  10. Smart

    Smart Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Messages:
    17,017

    Smart - Replied May 4, 2003

    allude means 'refer to'... what word did you really want?
     
    Smart - Rank: Dirty Dozen Crew - Messages:
    17,017
    - Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
  11. Smart

    Smart Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Messages:
    17,017

    Smart - Replied May 4, 2003

    well... that's not really a good choice of word, or words, either... theoretically, the 'points' should elude KaBar, not the other way around.
     
    Smart - Rank: Dirty Dozen Crew - Messages:
    17,017
    - Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
  12. mr.yuck

    mr.yuck 12oz Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2000
    Messages:
    6,952

    mr.yuck - Replied May 4, 2003

    Yeah yeah yeah. The world is a fucked up place. KaBar has his opinion, people get what they deserve. Chickenbone jumps on his back which isn't helping the somalian kids any, and smart is a vocabulary nazi which always makes my day.

    I thought that this was an interesting topic with or without a point. You dont need to learn a lesson from everydamn thing in life.


    IM RICH BIAAATCH
     
    mr.yuck - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
    6,952
    - Joined:
    May 12, 2000
  13. KaBar

    KaBar 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
    Messages:
    1,397

    KaBar - Replied May 4, 2003

    Y'all got some excellent grammar

    Uh, I guess my point was that although I stupidly talked shit about the Somalis in the past, it turns out that they've got more on the ball than I thought, and seem to have an admirable tradition of refusing to let strong central government get a foothold in their country. AS LONG AS THEY ARE ARMED and it's too much trouble to go jack around with them, they might pull it off. Their situation with a tribal society where nobody owns land except the tribe, and NO TAXES, along with "few" or "no" government services to speak of, will probably be able to exist unless their set-up to attract corporations backfires, and First World statists decide to go fuck them over because they are allowing big corporations to skate out of paying taxes. (What the hell--Burmuda does it. Cayman Islands does it. Turks and Caicos Islands does it. Why not Somalia?)

    By The WAY--did any of you guys ever hear of a kritarchy bfore? I had never, ever seen that word before today. I think it's kind of fitting that a tribal society run by judges can even be seriously considered in the year 2003. Cool. Wonder if it will work? This is substantially different from sharia , like existed in Afghanistan and supposedly exists in Iran. And part of Nigeria, I think.
     
    KaBar - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    1,397
    - Joined:
    Oct 9, 2001
  14. Smart

    Smart Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Messages:
    17,017

    Smart - Replied May 4, 2003

    my 2 cents

    Somalia IS a third world shit hole... what has driven corporate investment away in the past, and indeed through the future, is the fact that you have to live in a compound and hire a private army to protect your employees and assets. South Africa might be a good example, but for the aparthied. Still, the vast class differences characterize one possible Somali scenario. When the rich white folks are foreigners you are basically sowing the seeds for another Cuban revolution.

    Also, with no central government and no police, who does the corporation complain to when they feel their rights have been infringed upon? The corporation is not a tribe...

    Further, while corporations exert considerable effort to dodge or simply not pay taxes; Corporate leaders understand the fundamental neccessity of tax. Roads must be maintained. Tax provide one of the fundamental keys to infrastructure, stability.

    Nobody WANTS a beat up chick with missing teeth and sagging tits but there's always somebody... Now, take the same beat up chick, drop 5 grand on her mouth and 2 grand on her chest, give her a bath and she's gonna be much farther along in the game. The same holds true for countries, except instead of mouth think 'airport' and instead of chest think 'paved highway'.
     
    Smart - Rank: Dirty Dozen Crew - Messages:
    17,017
    - Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
  15. Dick Quickwood

    Dick Quickwood 12oz Loyalist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2002
    Messages:
    14,783

    Dick Quickwood - Replied May 4, 2003

    haha great analogy
     
    Dick Quickwood - Rank: 12oz Loyalist - Messages:
    14,783
    - Joined:
    Aug 25, 2002