Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

  1. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum...
    You are currently logged out and viewing our forum as a guest which only allows limited access to our discussions, photos and other forum features. If you are a 12ozProphet Member please login to get the full experience.

    If you are not a 12ozProphet Member, please take a moment to register to gain full access to our website and all of its features. As a 12ozProphet Member you will be able to post comments, start discussions, communicate privately with other members and access members-only content. Registration is fast, simple and free, so join today and be a part of the largest and longest running Graffiti, Art, Style & Culture forum online.

    Please note, if you are a 12ozProphet Member and are locked out of your account, you can recover your account using the 'lost password' link in the login form. If you no longer have access to the email you registered with, please email us at [email protected] and we'll help you recover your account. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum (and don't forget to follow @12ozprophet in Instagram)!

Military desertion since Iraq war..

Discussion in 'News' started by bobthedestroyer, Mar 7, 2006.

  1. bobthedestroyer

    bobthedestroyer New Jack

    Joined: Feb 20, 2006 Messages: 94 Likes Received: 0
    Yea, so it's been on the news latley that 8000 or so military personell have deserted. Note that teh overall rate of desertion was higher pre- 9/11 than it is after the invasion of Iraq...
     
  2. 2342

    2342 Junior Member

    Joined: Aug 19, 2005 Messages: 208 Likes Received: 1
    During the entire Vietnam War, 209,517 young men were formally accused of violating draft laws. Government officials estimate that another 360,000 were never formally accused. Of the former group, 25,000 indictments were handed down; 8,750 were convicted; and just under 4,000 served jail time.

    Just putting the numbers out there.....
     
  3. CACashRefund

    CACashRefund 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Oct 8, 2004 Messages: 14,171 Likes Received: 272
     
    source


    highlighted that one part to show whats going on today cant even begin to be compared to what went on in vietnam
     
  4. SolidAsCunt

    SolidAsCunt New Jack

    Joined: Nov 11, 2004 Messages: 81 Likes Received: 0
  5. 2342

    2342 Junior Member

    Joined: Aug 19, 2005 Messages: 208 Likes Received: 1
    My point exactly…..
     
  6. KaBar2

    KaBar2 Senior Member

    Joined: Jun 27, 2003 Messages: 2,126 Likes Received: 64
    I doubt that the possibility of service in Iraq is all that daunting to soldiers who enlisted in an all-volunteer military to start with. Most of the deserters during Vietnam were draftees. They did not want to be in the Army to start with. The soldiers that have enlisted or re-enlisted since 9/11 know the deal. They want to be professional soldiers, that's why they enlisted.

    One of the reasons I got out of the Marine Corps in 1981 was because there was "nothing going on." The U.S. did not seem like it was in any danger. There I was, parked in the Corps, getting older every day and no Big Game in sight.
    During wartime, the Marine Corps dispenses with all the petty bullshit regulations about field-daying the squad bay, spit-shining boots and Friday morning inspections and gets down to the real reason the Marine Corps exists--killing the shit out of the enemy.

    We had some re-treads from the Vietnam War, guys who had either enlisted or been drafted into the Corps during Vietnam. Some of them were guys who hated service in the Marines way back when, and who got out, tasted civilian life for a couple of years, then said "Fuck this civilian shit," and re-enlisted. They had served in the "no-BS" Marine Corps that existed during Vietnam.

    But by 1976, the Chicken Shit Regulations hurricane had arrived, and we were being BURIED in assholes who had nothing better to do than scrape hard water deposits out of the sink faucets in the head and then write you up for "failing Field Day Inspection." I became sick to death of Junk-on-the-Bunk inspections, IG inspections, Division Base quarters inspections, armory inspections, blah blah blah. They were stifling the hell out of every good thing about the Marine Corps in an OCEAN OF CHICKEN SHIT.

    But if there had been a war coming, I would have gladly stayed in. (Nobody quits the team the week before Homecoming Game.) We knew when we signed those enlistment papers that the possibility existed, however remote it might be, that we might get sent to war somewhere. Every soldier knows that if he goes to combat, he might get shot. He might be blown all to shit from stepping on a land mine, or from an artillery shell, or a booby trap--whatever. THE ODDS ARE IN YOUR FAVOR THAT YOU WON'T BE WOUNDED OR KILLED. Three million men (and a few thousand women) served in Vietnam. Fifty-five thousand or so got killed. 250,000 more or less, got wounded. The percentage is 1.8% killed and 8.33% wounded.

    Those are very good odds, for a shooting war.

    The casualty rate in Iraq is substantially lower than that.
     
  7. Smart

    Smart Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Apr 14, 2000 Messages: 17,017 Likes Received: 175
    Of course, this time around a bunch of those who signed up to be 'professional soldiers' were only looking for college tuition or 'one weekend a month, two weeks a year'...
    Makes me wonder. Kabar, we look to you for facts like this... How many National Guard servicemen put boots in country during Vietnam?
     
  8. KaBar2

    KaBar2 Senior Member

    Joined: Jun 27, 2003 Messages: 2,126 Likes Received: 64
    Of course, you're correct when you say that this time around a bunch of the people who joined the armed forces did so trying to get money for college, or specialized job training and so on. It's not a bad way to get college money, but it definately is NOT "money for nothing." If you enlist in the armed forces, you can expect to earn your pay.

    Bizarrely enough, the one young Marine that I know well (a neighbor's son whose uncle is a decorated Marine POW who served six years in a Vietnamese prison camp) is stationed in Hawaii. He's a helicopter air crewman and mechanic. He spends every afternoon surfing, not dodging bullets and IEDs.

    The only soldier I know went to high school and danced in the same ballet school as my daughter. She's 22 and in an airborne infantry unit as a supply specialist. Her unit is going to Iraq, but I'm not sure when. This girl was a slacker after high school, but when she joined the Army she really caught afire. She is every bit as gung-ho as any Marine I ever knew.

    The Army National Guard sent a total of 8,728 Guardsmen to Vietnam, according to my search engine. Of those 8,728 men, only 83 were killed. During Vietnam, the National Guard was a good place to be if you wanted to avoid combat service. Rich kids and people who were "connected," like George Bush, could get in.

    I knew a number of anarchists who joined the Marine Reserves. The USMC reserves were the ONLY reserve units that had any openings. All of the ANG units were full up with politician's kids, rich kids, people who "knew somebody."

    The National Guard is bearing a much, much larger share of the burden in the occupation of Iraq. I don't think the morons down at the Puzzle Palace ever expected the Iraqi opposition to put up this much of a fight, or for this long a period of time. I doubt there will be any more battles like Fallujah. The Baathists and the Islamists learned their lesson well last time. They know better than to stand and fight the Marines again. This war is going to just be endless boobytraps and roadside IED's.

    A black woman I work with has a son that enlisted for college money. His LAV was hit by a roadside IED, blown over sideways and set on fire, but none of the men were hurt, not even the gunner in the top hatch. Also, miraculously, none of them suffered any hearing damage either. (It's common for people who have been hit by a large explosion to lose some or all of their hearing.) When she told me about it, she said "They were all covered in the Blood of Jesus, that's why they survived!" I didn't say so, but I was thinking maybe what they were covered in was pure luck. Whatever the reason, they were probably very fortunate that no one was hurt. Sonny boy should have bought a Lotto ticket.
     

  9. That's what Jesus's blood is made of.
     
  10. bobthedestroyer

    bobthedestroyer New Jack

    Joined: Feb 20, 2006 Messages: 94 Likes Received: 0
    It's kind of hard for me to sympathise with anyone who joined the service to get college benefits and then refuse to fight. And by the way, the reserve benefits are really not worth risking your life for (if the money is all that you're in for). Think about it this way: You know one day you will need to paint your house, so you pay a painter to be ready as soon as your house is... after a while the time comes to paint your house and the painter says "fuck this, I don't want to paint your house". You were paying this guy to be ready for nothing...

    As with the active duty guys who are deserting... there always have been pussies and will continue to be. Gee, in the Marine boot camp you scream the words "KILL, KILL, KILL" thousands of times... are they preparing you to shoot rainbows out of your ass? No, your job will be to go to war and kill people. Like I said before, imagine military ranks in WW2 saying "fuck this, I don't believe we should be here because blah blah blah"... anyways, far far far far majority of people in the armed forces understand what they do and they understand that combat is not for politics. You shoot at people cause' if you don't they will shoot at you. Simple as that...
     
  11. bobthedestroyer

    bobthedestroyer New Jack

    Joined: Feb 20, 2006 Messages: 94 Likes Received: 0
    This is a war of inches. You sit 3 inches to the right and you just saved your life... some are lucky, some are not. New plans are in effect to re-route convoy traffic to avoid IED's which will probably work quite well. What I would like to see is Radio Jamming Vehicles in convoys as well as escort by attack helicopters (abushes as well as explosives that need to be set off via wiring-helis with infrared imaging would basically pave the fucking way). If these two things were implemented IED's would be non-existant...

    ON luck...There was an Army Stryker that was hit with a car jampacked with 155mm arty shells... flipped the fucking thing over a couple of times, blew off all the armor panneling... consequently none of the soldiers in there suffered any injuries. That's some amazing shit considering that was enough explosives to knock out a tank...
     
  12. RumPuncher

    RumPuncher Elite Member

    Joined: Jul 4, 2005 Messages: 4,500 Likes Received: 5

    they never would have said that, and here's the reason why.

    In the first world war, and to a lesser extent the second world war, british men were put into 'pub crews' when they went to fight. All of the blokes from some local pub would enlist and they would all join the same company and end up in the same foxholes and the same trenches. Career military men would still be running the show, but the more educated and respected members of the 'pub community' would be running things on the ground. think of it like you boss in peace time becoming your seargent in wartime. Granted this wasn't some jerk-off boss you dislike, this is a respected member of your community. The town doctor would be there for medical support, and the merchants would be pursers etc. So what make this arrangement special and different from the deal today?

    There's two main things that really gave this 'pub crew' style or troop management a morale advantage over what the US militray currently uses. The Brits would have been fighting next to the people they knew in peacetime. The gunner in the crew, they knew his kids. The seargent, they knew his father. There would be a HUGE emotional attachment to everyone on your 'team'. When the Brits fought 'for king and country' the king was England and the throne, but the 'country' was your home, your pub and all the men fighting with you.

    The problem with the american troop formations, and why I think that so many people are deserting and suffering from low morale is that no one knows each other. People from all over the states get sent to boot camp to form platoons and units but they probably dont know anyone else from their home. They can fight for the American Flag, but without someone to make the consequences personal, I understand how they would get dissolutioned. Then what would they do? Probably desert and go to see the people that matter, like their friends, family and neighbours. That's the only reason people should be fighting, to protect the people they love.

    Another problem with creating these troop units from such a diverse group of young american men is that they probably dont have much common ground outside of x-box, porn and MTV. You'll get closet racists fighting next to people they wouldn't hold a door for in real life. You get officers power tripping over rank instead of having earned the communitie's respect in real life by achieving a high social position (like a doctor or a forman).

    I understand the bond between the 'band of brothers' is very strong, but I dont think a few months in bootcamp and a tour or two can really compare to doing all of that with your community. Knowing that you are going back to the same place as the guys you're fighting with certainly would encourage loyalty.
     
  13. CACashRefund

    CACashRefund 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Oct 8, 2004 Messages: 14,171 Likes Received: 272
  14. yum

    yum Junior Member

    Joined: Sep 26, 2005 Messages: 122 Likes Received: 0
    true rumpuncher, although the problem with the way the british had that set up in world war one was it often resulted in every man from a town or community being killed because they were all in the same units.
     
  15. RumPuncher

    RumPuncher Elite Member

    Joined: Jul 4, 2005 Messages: 4,500 Likes Received: 5
    yes yum, that was a bit of a problem, in hindsight.
     
Top