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bobthedestroyer

Military desertion since Iraq war..

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Yea, so it's been on the news latley that 8000 or so military personell have deserted. Note that teh overall rate of desertion was higher pre- 9/11 than it is after the invasion of Iraq...

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During the entire Vietnam War, 209,517 young men were formally accused of violating draft laws. Government officials estimate that another 360,000 were never formally accused. Of the former group, 25,000 indictments were handed down; 8,750 were convicted; and just under 4,000 served jail time.

 

Just putting the numbers out there.....

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WASHINGTON, March 7 (Xinhuanet) -- At least 8,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted the armed forces since the Iraq war began in 2003, The USA Today reported on Tuesday.

 

The newspaper quoted Pentagon records as saying that 4,387 Armysoldiers, 3,454 Navy sailors and 82 Air Force personnel have deserted since the fall of 2003.

 

The Marine Corps does not track the number of desertions each year but listed 1,455 Marines in desertion status last September, at the end of fiscal 2005.

 

Some lawyers who represent deserters say the war in Iraq is driving more soldiers to question their service and that the Pentagon is cracking down on deserters.

 

"The last thing they want is for people to think ... that this is like Vietnam," says Tod Ensign, head of Citizen Soldier, an anti-war group that offers legal aid to deserters.

 

U.S. Army spokeswoman Major Elizabeth Robbins said opposition to the war prompted a small fraction of desertions.

 

"People always desert, and most do it because they don't adapt well to the military," she said.

 

The vast majority of desertions happen inside the United Statesand there is only one known case of desertion in Iraq, according to Robbins.

 

Penalties for desertion range from other-than-honorable discharges to death for desertion during wartime, although few arecourt-martialed, The USA Today report said.

 

The U.S. military desertion rate was much higher during the Vietnam War era. The Army saw a high of 33,094 deserters in 1971, 3.4 percent of the Army force.

source

 

 

highlighted that one part to show whats going on today cant even begin to be compared to what went on in vietnam

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Originally posted by CACashRefund@Mar 7 2006, 04:42 PM

 

WASHINGTON, March 7 (Xinhuanet) -- At least 8,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted the armed forces since the Iraq war began in 2003, The USA Today reported on Tuesday.

 

    The newspaper quoted Pentagon records as saying that 4,387 Armysoldiers, 3,454 Navy sailors and 82 Air Force personnel have deserted since the fall of 2003.

 

    The Marine Corps does not track the number of desertions each year but listed 1,455 Marines in desertion status last September, at the end of fiscal 2005.

 

    Some lawyers who represent deserters say the war in Iraq is driving more soldiers to question their service and that the Pentagon is cracking down on deserters.

 

    "The last thing they want is for people to think ... that this is like Vietnam," says Tod Ensign, head of Citizen Soldier, an anti-war group that offers legal aid to deserters.

 

    U.S. Army spokeswoman Major Elizabeth Robbins said opposition to the war prompted a small fraction of desertions.

 

    "People always desert, and most do it because they don't adapt well to the military," she said.

 

    The vast majority of desertions happen inside the United Statesand there is only one known case of desertion in Iraq, according to Robbins.

 

    Penalties for desertion range from other-than-honorable discharges to death for desertion during wartime, although few arecourt-martialed, The USA Today report said.

 

    The U.S. military desertion rate was much higher during the Vietnam War era. The Army saw a high of 33,094 deserters in 1971, 3.4 percent of the Army force.

source

 

 

highlighted that one part to show whats going on today cant even begin to be compared to what went on in vietnam

My point exactly…..

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I doubt that the possibility of service in Iraq is all that daunting to soldiers who enlisted in an all-volunteer military to start with. Most of the deserters during Vietnam were draftees. They did not want to be in the Army to start with. The soldiers that have enlisted or re-enlisted since 9/11 know the deal. They want to be professional soldiers, that's why they enlisted.

 

One of the reasons I got out of the Marine Corps in 1981 was because there was "nothing going on." The U.S. did not seem like it was in any danger. There I was, parked in the Corps, getting older every day and no Big Game in sight.

During wartime, the Marine Corps dispenses with all the petty bullshit regulations about field-daying the squad bay, spit-shining boots and Friday morning inspections and gets down to the real reason the Marine Corps exists--killing the shit out of the enemy.

 

We had some re-treads from the Vietnam War, guys who had either enlisted or been drafted into the Corps during Vietnam. Some of them were guys who hated service in the Marines way back when, and who got out, tasted civilian life for a couple of years, then said "Fuck this civilian shit," and re-enlisted. They had served in the "no-BS" Marine Corps that existed during Vietnam.

 

But by 1976, the Chicken Shit Regulations hurricane had arrived, and we were being BURIED in assholes who had nothing better to do than scrape hard water deposits out of the sink faucets in the head and then write you up for "failing Field Day Inspection." I became sick to death of Junk-on-the-Bunk inspections, IG inspections, Division Base quarters inspections, armory inspections, blah blah blah. They were stifling the hell out of every good thing about the Marine Corps in an OCEAN OF CHICKEN SHIT.

 

But if there had been a war coming, I would have gladly stayed in. (Nobody quits the team the week before Homecoming Game.) We knew when we signed those enlistment papers that the possibility existed, however remote it might be, that we might get sent to war somewhere. Every soldier knows that if he goes to combat, he might get shot. He might be blown all to shit from stepping on a land mine, or from an artillery shell, or a booby trap--whatever. THE ODDS ARE IN YOUR FAVOR THAT YOU WON'T BE WOUNDED OR KILLED. Three million men (and a few thousand women) served in Vietnam. Fifty-five thousand or so got killed. 250,000 more or less, got wounded. The percentage is 1.8% killed and 8.33% wounded.

 

Those are very good odds, for a shooting war.

 

The casualty rate in Iraq is substantially lower than that.

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Of course, this time around a bunch of those who signed up to be 'professional soldiers' were only looking for college tuition or 'one weekend a month, two weeks a year'...

Makes me wonder. Kabar, we look to you for facts like this... How many National Guard servicemen put boots in country during Vietnam?

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Of course, you're correct when you say that this time around a bunch of the people who joined the armed forces did so trying to get money for college, or specialized job training and so on. It's not a bad way to get college money, but it definately is NOT "money for nothing." If you enlist in the armed forces, you can expect to earn your pay.

 

Bizarrely enough, the one young Marine that I know well (a neighbor's son whose uncle is a decorated Marine POW who served six years in a Vietnamese prison camp) is stationed in Hawaii. He's a helicopter air crewman and mechanic. He spends every afternoon surfing, not dodging bullets and IEDs.

 

The only soldier I know went to high school and danced in the same ballet school as my daughter. She's 22 and in an airborne infantry unit as a supply specialist. Her unit is going to Iraq, but I'm not sure when. This girl was a slacker after high school, but when she joined the Army she really caught afire. She is every bit as gung-ho as any Marine I ever knew.

 

The Army National Guard sent a total of 8,728 Guardsmen to Vietnam, according to my search engine. Of those 8,728 men, only 83 were killed. During Vietnam, the National Guard was a good place to be if you wanted to avoid combat service. Rich kids and people who were "connected," like George Bush, could get in.

 

I knew a number of anarchists who joined the Marine Reserves. The USMC reserves were the ONLY reserve units that had any openings. All of the ANG units were full up with politician's kids, rich kids, people who "knew somebody."

 

The National Guard is bearing a much, much larger share of the burden in the occupation of Iraq. I don't think the morons down at the Puzzle Palace ever expected the Iraqi opposition to put up this much of a fight, or for this long a period of time. I doubt there will be any more battles like Fallujah. The Baathists and the Islamists learned their lesson well last time. They know better than to stand and fight the Marines again. This war is going to just be endless boobytraps and roadside IED's.

 

A black woman I work with has a son that enlisted for college money. His LAV was hit by a roadside IED, blown over sideways and set on fire, but none of the men were hurt, not even the gunner in the top hatch. Also, miraculously, none of them suffered any hearing damage either. (It's common for people who have been hit by a large explosion to lose some or all of their hearing.) When she told me about it, she said "They were all covered in the Blood of Jesus, that's why they survived!" I didn't say so, but I was thinking maybe what they were covered in was pure luck. Whatever the reason, they were probably very fortunate that no one was hurt. Sonny boy should have bought a Lotto ticket.

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Guest imported_El Mamerro
Originally posted by KaBar2@Mar 8 2006, 12:11 AM

I didn't say so, but I was thinking maybe what they were covered in was pure luck.

 

 

That's what Jesus's blood is made of.

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It's kind of hard for me to sympathise with anyone who joined the service to get college benefits and then refuse to fight. And by the way, the reserve benefits are really not worth risking your life for (if the money is all that you're in for). Think about it this way: You know one day you will need to paint your house, so you pay a painter to be ready as soon as your house is... after a while the time comes to paint your house and the painter says "fuck this, I don't want to paint your house". You were paying this guy to be ready for nothing...

 

As with the active duty guys who are deserting... there always have been pussies and will continue to be. Gee, in the Marine boot camp you scream the words "KILL, KILL, KILL" thousands of times... are they preparing you to shoot rainbows out of your ass? No, your job will be to go to war and kill people. Like I said before, imagine military ranks in WW2 saying "fuck this, I don't believe we should be here because blah blah blah"... anyways, far far far far majority of people in the armed forces understand what they do and they understand that combat is not for politics. You shoot at people cause' if you don't they will shoot at you. Simple as that...

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Originally posted by KaBar2@Mar 8 2006, 12:11 AM

Of course, you're correct when you say that this time around a bunch of the people who joined the armed forces did so trying to get money for college, or specialized job training and so on. It's not a bad way to get college money, but it definately is NOT "money for nothing." If you enlist in the armed forces, you can expect to earn your pay.

 

Bizarrely enough, the one young Marine that I know well (a neighbor's son whose uncle is a decorated Marine POW who served six years in a Vietnamese prison camp) is stationed in Hawaii. He's a helicopter air crewman and mechanic. He spends every afternoon surfing, not dodging bullets and IEDs.

 

The only soldier I know went to high school and danced in the same ballet school as my daughter. She's 22 and in an airborne infantry unit as a supply specialist. Her unit is going to Iraq, but I'm not sure when. This girl was a slacker after high school, but when she joined the Army she really caught afire. She is every bit as gung-ho as any Marine I ever knew.

 

The Army National Guard sent a total of 8,728 Guardsmen to Vietnam, according to my search engine. Of those 8,728 men, only 83 were killed. During Vietnam, the National Guard was a good place to be if you wanted to avoid combat service. Rich kids and people who were "connected," like George Bush, could get in.

 

I knew a number of anarchists who joined the Marine Reserves. The USMC reserves were the ONLY reserve units that had any openings. All of the ANG units were full up with politician's kids, rich kids, people who "knew somebody."

 

The National Guard is bearing a much, much larger share of the burden in the occupation of Iraq. I don't think the morons down at the Puzzle Palace ever expected the Iraqi opposition to put up this much of a fight, or for this long a period of time. I doubt there will be any more battles like Fallujah. The Baathists and the Islamists learned their lesson well last time. They know better than to stand and fight the Marines again. This war is going to just be endless boobytraps and roadside IED's.

 

A black woman I work with has a son that enlisted for college money. His LAV was hit by a roadside IED, blown over sideways and set on fire, but none of the men were hurt, not even the gunner in the top hatch. Also, miraculously, none of them suffered any hearing damage either. (It's common for people who have been hit by a large explosion to lose some or all of their hearing.) When she told me about it, she said "They were all covered in the Blood of Jesus, that's why they survived!" I didn't say so, but I was thinking maybe what they were covered in was pure luck. Whatever the reason, they were probably very fortunate that no one was hurt. Sonny boy should have bought a Lotto ticket.

 

This is a war of inches. You sit 3 inches to the right and you just saved your life... some are lucky, some are not. New plans are in effect to re-route convoy traffic to avoid IED's which will probably work quite well. What I would like to see is Radio Jamming Vehicles in convoys as well as escort by attack helicopters (abushes as well as explosives that need to be set off via wiring-helis with infrared imaging would basically pave the fucking way). If these two things were implemented IED's would be non-existant...

 

ON luck...There was an Army Stryker that was hit with a car jampacked with 155mm arty shells... flipped the fucking thing over a couple of times, blew off all the armor panneling... consequently none of the soldiers in there suffered any injuries. That's some amazing shit considering that was enough explosives to knock out a tank...

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Originally posted by bobthedestroyer@Mar 8 2006, 02:19 PM

Like I said before, imagine military ranks in WW2 saying "fuck this, I don't believe we should be here because blah blah blah"...

 

 

they never would have said that, and here's the reason why.

 

In the first world war, and to a lesser extent the second world war, british men were put into 'pub crews' when they went to fight. All of the blokes from some local pub would enlist and they would all join the same company and end up in the same foxholes and the same trenches. Career military men would still be running the show, but the more educated and respected members of the 'pub community' would be running things on the ground. think of it like you boss in peace time becoming your seargent in wartime. Granted this wasn't some jerk-off boss you dislike, this is a respected member of your community. The town doctor would be there for medical support, and the merchants would be pursers etc. So what make this arrangement special and different from the deal today?

 

There's two main things that really gave this 'pub crew' style or troop management a morale advantage over what the US militray currently uses. The Brits would have been fighting next to the people they knew in peacetime. The gunner in the crew, they knew his kids. The seargent, they knew his father. There would be a HUGE emotional attachment to everyone on your 'team'. When the Brits fought 'for king and country' the king was England and the throne, but the 'country' was your home, your pub and all the men fighting with you.

 

The problem with the american troop formations, and why I think that so many people are deserting and suffering from low morale is that no one knows each other. People from all over the states get sent to boot camp to form platoons and units but they probably dont know anyone else from their home. They can fight for the American Flag, but without someone to make the consequences personal, I understand how they would get dissolutioned. Then what would they do? Probably desert and go to see the people that matter, like their friends, family and neighbours. That's the only reason people should be fighting, to protect the people they love.

 

Another problem with creating these troop units from such a diverse group of young american men is that they probably dont have much common ground outside of x-box, porn and MTV. You'll get closet racists fighting next to people they wouldn't hold a door for in real life. You get officers power tripping over rank instead of having earned the communitie's respect in real life by achieving a high social position (like a doctor or a forman).

 

I understand the bond between the 'band of brothers' is very strong, but I dont think a few months in bootcamp and a tour or two can really compare to doing all of that with your community. Knowing that you are going back to the same place as the guys you're fighting with certainly would encourage loyalty.

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true rumpuncher, although the problem with the way the british had that set up in world war one was it often resulted in every man from a town or community being killed because they were all in the same units.

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Rumpuncher although you do present some valid points I disagree. The Marines that I know fight for each other not for themselves. You fight amongst your brothers and sisters... I think you have to be a member of the armed forces to understand the whole concept. If you ever visit Borders go to a magazine called Soldier of Fortune or something of that nature. It is filled with stories of how Senior Ncos would shield their younger wounded Marines with their own bodies... you might have also seen the pictures I have posted in the greatest photos thread... These men aren't blood brothers nor do they know each others families but they will sacrafice their lives for their comrades...

 

 

Also many of the reserve units that are not from big cities are ranked with people from small towns who know each other as well as each others families. Just like that show on Discovery Time.. off to war or whatever it is called...

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not to mention, that we live in a world , unlike the world of the first 2 world wars where news travels faster than the wind blows. The good news and the bad news.When something like abu graib happened in world war 1 we probably never found out about it or at least not while the war was still going on. I assume most of these soldiers can access world news and as much as some people might disagree, there is a huge part of the country that opposes this war, especially now. I'm sure this is a huge part of the low morale in the us military, not to mention that the public is a lot more ecucated and informed about war in general than during the 2 world wars.

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Why do you keep coming in here and posting your nonsense... "low morale" in the military? Show me some proof of that... because last time I checked people are voulenteering to go fight in Iraq and Afghanistan faster than people can be rotated out. I was on the back burner for almost a year and a half...

 

go on military.com then visit the MODF=Marine Open Discussions Forum and come talk to me about morale and all this shit you claim that isn't there.

 

Also let me break down the goddamn rationallity here.

 

Saddam Hussein= asshole =bad so taking him out =good.

AL- Al-Qaeda* (who is responsible for 9/11 and wants to destroy America and Muslims like you) is our # 1 enemy in Iraq...

 

So...? Why would I not want to go there and fight? What does your average citizen know outside of what the biased media want to tell them? Nothing.

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During WWII, the same sort of local unit cohesion was common among the U.S. troops, at least to some degree. Among the National Guard units, especially, they were small-town units where everybody knew one another. My mother was from a small town in central Texas, and she and her girlfriends attended the funerals of all the soldiers from Luling whose bodies were returned, and all the memorial services for those whose bodies were lost or buried overseas. They were men who worked in stores and businesses and for companies from Luling, who did business with my grandfather, boys with whom my Mom attended high school. Every death was front page news. Sometimes a man who had been present at the time of death was selected to accompany the casket home.

 

Many of the local families were of German extraction and still spoke German at home. They often negotiated German surrenders on the battlefield, or interrogated German prisoners. Not far from Luling there were POW camps where German EPW's were housed. They were permitted to work on farms during the day, and returned to camp at night. After the war, many of them returned to the area and married German-American girls. When I was a boy, I had a friend whose father had been a Nazi Party member, but other than his accent, he seemed just like everybody else's Dad. My next door neighbor's mother was a German war bride at age 16, who had been a member of the BDM (the Hitler Youth organization for girls.) When she would talk about Hitler she got all excited and misty eyed, like some girl from the 1960's talking about the Beatles. In 1961, when I met her, she had only been out of post-war Germany fifteen years.

The father of another kid I knew flew P-51 Mustangs during the war against the Germans. The den of his parent's house was like a shrine to his father's P-51 squadron, with scores of photographs of pilots, ground crews, and aircraft. Another kid I knew had a DEWAT (deactivated war trophy) German 8mm MG-42 belt-fed machinegun. His father had both captured and purchased "war souvineers" from other soldiers. He had a collection of Nazi flags, daggers, Mauser rifles and Nazi uniforms and helmets. A LOT of the fathers in our neighborhood had fought in either WWII or Korea. My friend Dusty Roush's dad (a Marine) was killed in Korea when Dusty was a baby.

 

It was if WWII had just happened yesterday, when I was a kid. All my friends and I had tons of WWII and Korean War military surplus. For twenty bucks you could probably have bought a full kit, helmet, uniform, packs, cartridge belt, combat suspenders, canteen, canteen cup, canteen cover, bayonet and scabbard (I bought an M-1 bayonet and scabbard for $3.00. Now they are like $65.) entrenching tool, e-tool cover, boots, the whole shittin' shebang. Every Saturday when I got my allowance, I rode my bike down to the Army-Navy store and bought some more "Army stuff."

 

A lot of hobos in the 1950's carried a combat pack known as a "rifle bag." You could get a raggedy one for a dollar. A good one cost maybe $3.00. You could get an Army duffle bag (in the Marines, a "sea bag") for maybe $5.00. The stuff was dirt cheap.

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reminds me of that german paratrooper knife my grandfather gave me from the war. i dont know why i had it with me, but i lost that thing in the yard one time when we had to bolt. still pisses me off.

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my grandmother had a fancy german dress sword / dagger thing.

It was about 15 inches long (blade) so not a real sword, but a damb nig knife.

I was scared my grandma was a nazi, but I'm sure it was just post-war-loot.

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Originally posted by bobthedestroyer@Mar 8 2006, 09:53 PM

Saddam Hussein= asshole =bad so taking him out =good.

AL- Al-Qaeda* (who is responsible for 9/11 and wants to destroy America and Muslims like you) is our # 1 enemy in Iraq...

 

 

 

the House of Saud = assholes = al-queda supporters = protected by GWBush = what's going on?

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Originally posted by RumPuncher+Mar 9 2006, 09:06 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RumPuncher - Mar 9 2006, 09:06 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-bobthedestroyer@Mar 8 2006, 09:53 PM

Saddam Hussein= asshole =bad so taking him out =good.

AL- Al-Qaeda* (who is responsible for 9/11 and wants to destroy America and Muslims like you) is our # 1 enemy in Iraq...

 

 

 

the House of Saud = assholes = al-queda supporters = protected by GWBush = what's going on?

[/b]

 

They are not Al-qaeda supporters. Al-qaeda fucking hates the Saudi gov... thats why the Saudi gov runs special forces death squads that have al gayda operatives shit scared. Al-qaeda gained power as a response to what Saudi arabia did in the first place... they allowed U.S. troops to occupy "the holy land"... in case Saddam would try to invade it... Osama believed that him and his fighters could protect the land but the Saudis refused.

 

Many people in Saudi Arabia do support al-gayda and at the same time hate their government...

 

And trust me, if it were all about doing the "right" thing... our asses would be in Africa for the past 30 years of genocide going on over there.

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I was in Fredricksburg Tejas once on May 1st... nice parade... and the Admiral Nimitz museum, one of our nation's best.

 

My father's girlfriend's father (convoluted some?) was in the German army in WWII. Her grandfather had been caught harboring the local deli owner, a jew, so he was shot and her father was conscripted at age sixteen. There were like 22 months left in the war. He went to 3 battles and each time the 'grey coats' in the regular infantry were pursued and pushed by the SS. The 3rd major battle He realized they had left the flanks open and he and a friend from home that he had somehow linked up with dipped out, headed home and lived peacefully for the rest of the war. They deserted, went home and got jobs and shit...

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Originally posted by Smart@Mar 9 2006, 03:50 PM

I was in Fredricksburg Tejas once on May 1st... nice parade... and the Admiral Nimitz museum, one of our nation's best.

 

My father's girlfriend's father (convoluted some?) was in the German army in WWII. Her grandfather had been caught harboring the local deli owner, a jew, so he was shot and her father was conscripted at age sixteen. There were like 22 months left in the war. He went to 3 battles and each time the 'grey coats' in the regular infantry were pursued and pushed by the SS. The 3rd major battle He realized they had left the flanks open and he and a friend from home that he had somehow linked up with dipped out, headed home and lived peacefully for the rest of the war. They deserted, went home and got jobs and shit...

 

Even going back to that time, and fighting for the germans... it is still dishonorable to leave your brothers in arms like that. It's not like every soldier supported what Hitler was preaching...

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