CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You are someone who takes extreme examples and situations and applies them to vast situations and yet you call me a clown. How about you learn to think for yourself and when you actually leave acadamia and enter the real world, you form your own opinion instead of listening to Ron Paul in lock step. I am sure in is just a coincidence that you cited a Austrian Economist and Ron Paul is a major supporter of the austrian school economists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You also have not one time cited a way for a government to take care of its people other then charity. You seem to gloss over that. Also, If you can tell me how a isolationist (Libertarian) views a reasonable foreign policy that will actually work, I will say I am wrong. All people like you want to do is isolate yourselves and hope that business takes care of everything else. Some people who suffer along the way is reasonable to you. And you do not call that selfish??? You are most definitely the clown in this group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I am going to the beach with my kids. Look forward to your answers to prove me wrong, to include how unregulated business will take care of all members of this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You are someone who takes extreme examples and situations and applies them to vast situations and yet you call me a clown. How about you learn to think for yourself and when you actually leave acadamia and enter the real world, you form your own opinion instead of listening to Ron Paul in lock step. I am sure in is just a coincidence that you cited a Austrian Economist and Ron Paul is a major supporter of the austrian school economists. hahaha. so let me get this right, you think im some college student or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You also have not one time cited a way for a government to take care of its people other then charity. You seem to gloss over that. i do not support government taking care of people. i support voluntary private institutions taking care of others ranging from person to person care taking to larger private institutions such as churches, private charities, etc. Also, If you can tell me how a isolationist (Libertarian) views a reasonable foreign policy that will actually work, I will say I am wrong. this sentence is incoherent. And you do not call that selfish??? You are most definitely the clown in this group. what would you think if someone in full combat load out came to your door, put an AR15 to your nose, and demanded 50% of your income in order for you to not be 'selfish' what would you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I am going to the beach with my kids. Look forward to your answers to prove me wrong, to include how unregulated business will take care of all members of this country. thankfully capitalism has been good enough to you so you can go enjoy leisure time and goof off. you should thank freedom of exchange for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 i do not support government taking care of people. i support voluntary private institutions taking care of others ranging from person to person care taking to larger private institutions such as churches, private charities, etc. this sentence is incoherent. You have no foreign policy what would you think if someone in full combat load out came to your door, put an AR15 to your nose, and demanded 50% of your income in order for you to not be 'selfish' what would you think?another extreme example that does not apply I do not know why I even bother. Ron Paul and people like him and you do not even have a chance of winning the presidency, never mind the primaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 thankfully capitalism has been good enough to you so you can go enjoy leisure time and goof off. you should thank freedom of exchange for this. You need to thank your freedom to believe those idiotic theories to people like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You have no foreign policy my favored policy as few entangling alliances as possible and friendship and commerce with all nations. the nation should run forpol exactly how most people live their lives. do no harm to others, but if someone harms you or threatens, you retaliate. its very basic golden rule type stuff. another extreme example that does not apply whenever you say 'extreme' it simply means is just something that both hillary clinton and mitt romney disagree on. thats it. it just means im not within that small ideological spectrum and therefore, i need to shut up because i am out of the realm of polite thought in the world of cilone. its not an extreme example, but in essence that is exactly what government is. if you refuse to participate, you go to jail and/or ultimately are killed if you resist sufficiently enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You need to thank your freedom to believe those idiotic theories to people like me. how does one 'believe an idiotic theory to people like you?' what does that even mean? makes absolutely no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Im not sure but I seem to remember CILONE saying he was in the military at some point, maybe even still is, in which case I suppose he could mean that in America you have the freedom to believe and do as you want due to the military of America? I'm sorry CILONE if you meant it as something else, but that is how it came across to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Im not sure but I seem to remember CILONE saying he was in the military at some point, maybe even still is, in which case I suppose he could mean that in America you have the freedom to believe and do as you want due to the military of America? I'm sorry CILONE if you meant it as something else, but that is how it came across to me. That is what I meant. AOD likes to not reply to things he does not have a answer for and point out something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Sorry for typos. I am in my phone at the beach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 That is what I meant. AOD likes to not reply to things he does not have a answer for and point out something else. why should i thank you for freedom that i have as a birth right? ah yes, figures. a nationalist liberal type. gotta love it. usually someone can be stomached if they are from one group or the other.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Again with the extermist bullshit. AOD you are the type that if someone does not believe everything you do, you assume that they are representative of everything you hate. You might have different viewpoints, but those same viewpoints are inline with anti-American viewpoints. Most evil people in this world want small governments, so they can do what they want to their people. They also support a free market, so they can again do what they want. The also are isolationists, so that they are left alone to do what they want to their people. You are supportive of the very things that will take apart this country. The sad part is that you do not see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I just got a props from someone who reminded me to go get into the water with my kids. AOD. I will continue this later, but I do not see either of our viewpoints changing. I do have to give you props for never giving me any negs no matter how much I call you an asshole:) that is one reason I like crossfire, most people here are not childish like the rest of the oontz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I agree and disagree CIL, I find that AOD looks at things from a personal basis, it doesnt match with the isolationist nations because they are wanting to be isolated so they cannot be stopped from doing whatever they please. I always find AODs views stem more towards a lower level personal stance than a national stance (mainly because I cannot see a nation working like that) so for him he isnt using his isolationism to force his will on people below him. If that makes sense. He wants it to be left alone. I actually agree with a lot of his views from a personal viewpoint, in that I dont want someone to dictate to me what I have to do, it is just that I believe that paying taxes etc means im contributing to a society that I can be free in. I find that I have debated (I wont call it arguing) with AOD and no matter how much we disagree about things there is definitely a mutual respect and I have no doubt that we would be fine having a beer together if we ever bumped into each other (maybe at a gun convention hahaha) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Again with the extermist bullshit. once again, let the record show, all this means is i disagree with both hillary and mitt. AOD you are the type that if someone does not believe everything you do, you assume that they are representative of everything you hate. this is absolutely false. i have happily formed alliances with the kucinich crowd over the years on various issues, even though they want national healthcare and to take away my firearms. i've formed alliances with tea party types even though they want to crush civil liberties and they praise bush. if you are trying to refer to yourself on this, its not because we dont agree on everything that i think you represent things that i hate. its because you actually have yet to say one thing i've agreed with. so because we agree on NOTHING, its safe to assume you represent everything im against. Most evil people in this world want small governments, so they can do what they want to their people. They also support a free market, so they can again do what they want. The also are isolationists, so that they are left alone to do what they want to their people. You are supportive of the very things that will take apart this country. i dont know where you are getting this from. tyranny and oppression has never come from limited government it has come from total or the near total state. all dictators support some form of fascism or socialism, the anti thesis of a free market. hitler and stalin were not 'isolationalists' but internationalists. its the height of silliness to equate my views, the very same views that founded this country as the same views which are going to 'tear the country apart.' it is the policies that you and your ilk support that have torn the country apart to the point of no return. the more you boss people around, the more angry they get. the more resentful they get. there will be a time when the current government goes the way of the british government in the 1770's and 80's. the declaration of independence beautifully laid out the rights and duties of a free people, and living under tyranny isnt part of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I agree and disagree CIL, I find that AOD looks at things from a personal basis, it doesnt match with the isolationist nations because they are wanting to be isolated so they cannot be stopped from doing whatever they please. word. but for the record, isolationist is a bad word to apply to the non interventionist view point. the last thing i support is isolationism. i support trade and commerce with all nations, i just dont support doing it at the barrel of a gun. imagine if we started calling everyone in the private economy 'isolationists' because they were against just letting people handle their own affairs. its some sort of faulty logic or orwellian type propaganda. its a word that is used to try to shut down conversation, sort of like calling someone a nazi or a racist. only a liar, a deceiver or the intellectually dishonest would try to label the free trade position as being 'isolationist.' to me its not about left vs right, its about intervention vs non intervention. He wants it to be left alone. well put my friend. as someone is fond of saying...'there are they who want to be left alone and then there are they, them, those, who wont leave them alone.' I find that I have debated (I wont call it arguing) with AOD and no matter how much we disagree about things there is definitely a mutual respect and I have no doubt that we would be fine having a beer together if we ever bumped into each other (maybe at a gun convention hahaha) when in the US, look me up. i'll show you an american good time. ar15's, open carrying, and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I have to admit a gun range would be one of the first places I would hit in America, go wild and shoot some shit, would be fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILOTSMYBRAIN Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You need to understand it. Because what he is saying is that although fascism is allowed in certain circumstances and has saved European Civilization, although temporarily. He is backing it up at least in a short term. No he isn't he is saying that isn't the solution to anything, short term success means failure in the long run, there is NO SUPPORT FROM HIM FOR THOSE IDEOLOGIES. You're calling a man that has been for 20+ years a supporter of freedom and the constitution, and you are calling him a fascist. Pretty off base. Kind of like Rachael Maddow calling him and his son a racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Greed ≠ Self-Interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM4RT Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I've read both threads......and I don't know where to begin. I really can't be fucked replying to every CILONE/SK post. You seem to have some major misconceptions about free market theory, as well as economics in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I also think you all have major misconceptions about Free Markets and many other things. I just do not understand how alot of you can truly believe that any business will take care of the population like a government should, especially when it is against their profit margins. You just have to read the news everyday and you will see that no business gives a fuck about anything but profits, and yet all of you would willingly de-regulate them even more then they already have to allow them to ruin not only our countries, but our world further then they already have. The only thing that will happen in a free market is that business will adjust to the market to maximize their profits at the cost of the environment, the people, and their jobs. And all of you want this to happen and you say I have misconceptions. hahahaha Some of you really need to take your blinders off. It seriously has me laughing at anyone who would imply that business will be good for taking care of its people in the same way a government should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 No he isn't he is saying that isn't the solution to anything, short term success means failure in the long run, there is NO SUPPORT FROM HIM FOR THOSE IDEOLOGIES. You're calling a man that has been for 20+ years a supporter of freedom and the constitution, and you are calling him a fascist. Pretty off base. Kind of like Rachael Maddow calling him and his son a racist. Wrong, I am not the only one who came to this conclusion. In fact James DeLong came to the same conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I agree and disagree CIL, I find that AOD looks at things from a personal basis, it doesnt match with the isolationist nations because they are wanting to be isolated so they cannot be stopped from doing whatever they please. I always find AODs views stem more towards a lower level personal stance than a national stance (mainly because I cannot see a nation working like that) so for him he isnt using his isolationism to force his will on people below him. If that makes sense. He wants it to be left alone. I actually agree with a lot of his views from a personal viewpoint, in that I dont want someone to dictate to me what I have to do, it is just that I believe that paying taxes etc means im contributing to a society that I can be free in. I find that I have debated (I wont call it arguing) with AOD and no matter how much we disagree about things there is definitely a mutual respect and I have no doubt that we would be fine having a beer together if we ever bumped into each other (maybe at a gun convention hahaha) I can agree with this fully. I think AOD and his kind are very locally driven and do not see the forest for the trees. I have no hard feelings toward anyone in Crossfire and would hope I could drink a beer with them if I was ever in their area. Except for Harold, that is the only fool who Negd me, although it did not affact anything. hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Wrong, I am not the only one who came to this conclusion. In fact James DeLong came to the same conclusion. i'd argue only people with an ideological axe to grind would ever attempt to try to brand mises as a fascist. it is nothing but an attempt to slur someone based on an out of context quotation and in fact not even listening to what he is actually saying. there are a few other people (in this case a free market anarchist) who have famously said that a monarchy is slightly less tyrannical than democracy. does this mean he is a monarchist, when in fact he favors no government? other libertarians have argued that the founding generation was silly to break away from the british empire because they were living as the freest people on earth at that time and they created the system that created the biggest government on earth. does that mean they favor monarchy? and are you really citing james delong? is this the same guy who helped give us NAFTA and was part of the clinton treasury? a uber liberal ala the rachel maddown/paul krugman variety? and you think he is saying this about mises without an ideological partisan ax to grind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CILONE/SK Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I will have to reply to this after work, because it is hard to cut and paste links from my phone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zig Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 i would chime in on the debate here but i think aod is doing a fine job... Let's "set politics aside" and "do some tough stuff," Obama told reporters at a White House news conference. But "if Washington operates as usual and can't get anything done, let's at least avert Armageddon." pretty crazy quote from Obama there, it's clear we are once again on the brink of disaster. i don't know how much longer they can keep patching up this broken system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decyferon Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 But it isn't just the US system that is fucked up, every system around the world is. There isn't enough choice of people to vote for no matter where you are, you either have rep or dems in the US anyone else doesnt stand a chance same as here you have tories labour lib dem no one else stands a chance (nor do the lib dems anymore). Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are all on the brink of going bust, the US soverign debt will default if they dont allow an increase to US credit limits. I do think that it is unfair to blame Obama because to be honest no one could sort this mess out. This is why you cannot just look at these issues on a national scale it always has to be looked at globally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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