why did the wtc's collapse? conclusive proof

[lord_casek]

The guy goes "this is probably 1500 degrees", which I doubt because his face wasn't melting off. You've never said "oh man those spicey bean burritos made me shit for 9 hours" when it was closer to 45 minutes? All that clip really shows is that not surprisingly fire persisted closed off under the rubble for a long time after the buildings collapsed.

 

Casek, how does a statement that basically says they want a more in depth investigation prove they believe the US government was behind it? It seems more think the "government had foreknowledge" than the men in black set up c4 everywhere or trained the hi jackers, atleast according to that site. 40 is an extremely low number considering nearly 3,000 people were killed and they all had atleast a dozen family members.

 

 

explain the me the white/yellow hot metal pouring out winodws. you come up with a rational explanation other than thermate/thermite. c4 makes a big boom. thermate melts metal like a hot knife through cold butter. even the metals color and white smoke indicates thermate. i've made thermite, i know what the smoke and hot metal look like. didn't have any sulfur handy, so i couldn't make thermate. it just burns hotter than thermite. no difference in smoke.

 

why was that guys face not melting off? he wasn't close enough to the hot metal. did you see that shit? red fucking hot. months after. red hot metal.

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cRtVnenOkYg

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Yea, the reason why it isn't burning that hot is because his face hasn't melt off?

 

Im sure his statement wasn't 100% accurate, but im sure it was alot closer to 1500 degress then let's say 825 degrees, and this is MONTHS after, im pretty sure the temperature has cooled down alot since 9/11(that is the pools of molten steel themselves).

 

Again, I ask anyone to find me a article or any evidence brought up by people that aren't working for or are directly affilated with the goverment.

 

I can find sources that are unbiased, and support my side of the arguement, can you?

 

Also the arguement that we aren't experts is just fishing for a reason not to believe to me, these people that are coming forward are scholors in their fields, these are also people that have worked for previous administrations and in some cases this administration.

 

I can not believe how this is even still being debated, look at Katrina do you think this goverment is for the people? Why is it so inconcieveable to actually say that the goverment actually did this?

 

These guys are a bunch of Neo-Con's with Nazi goverment ties in their history, all of this is undisclosed information that you can look up for yourself.

[lord_casek]

hell, look at spp.gov or pnac.gov

this isn't the country that it once was.

[Stereotype V.0002]

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

This addresses the thermite issue, but I’m sure it won’t be read because the author’s grandma's uncle is the sith ringleader of the Bush administration. Thermite is basically a joke IMO, I remember playing with it in high school physics class..you can even by it on ebay. There would be much more effective and uncommon ways to melt steel or take down a building at the government's disposal.

 

If that was 1500 degrees which can burn steal, why wasn’t the backhoe or material around it being melted? Yes, that supervisor was standing about 6 feet away, he might have been a tad uncomfortable had it actually been that hot. And since the popular mechanics article is discredited because he is supposedly related to Michael Chertoff, anything a college professor who literally believes Jesus Christ visited America and doesn’t have any engineering credentials isn’t going to be taken seriously by me. Anyway, if that material is thermite, why does it appear to be dripping? The videos of thermite reactions you posted all show the material shooting rapidly up and more brightly, why would it only fall downwards much slower from the world trade center? And just a crazy theory on what that substance is, but if you look up a few feet you can see the impact from the planes and jet fuel burning at times with the same intensity.

 

”red fucking hot. months after. red hot metal.”

Since you’ve made thermite you must know that the reaction is relatively short, and if anything this would hurt your case.

 

”Again, I ask anyone to find me a article or any evidence brought up by people that aren't working for or are directly affilated with the goverment.”

Since you haven’t looked into the opposing viewpoint you should find out for yourself and read some, there are hundreds of papers from academics/engineers with real credentials who prove these theories wrong with facts and not speculation. Speaking of unbiased sources, are you kidding? You think Alex Jones and whoever else is objective?

 

With all of the “evil nazi zombie neocon” arguments aside, let’s assume everything you said makes sense and adds up. The government placed “thermite” bombs on the world trade center to take it down, the hi jacked planes were really remote controlled, dick cheney pushed the big red button, whatever you want. Wouldn’t some of the nearly 30,000 people who evacuated the trade centers have noticed the G men planting hundreds of pounds of explosives? Were they all in on it? And if jet fuel can’t burn steel (which it can), do you think the government would be so incompetent to just overlook that? If the government would not have any qualms about killing 3,000 citizens, why wouldn’t they have silenced any talk about their top secret mission once it started? They can’t even keep surveillance programs where only a few dozen people know secret.. how would an operation this large remain secret with no anonymous sources? I'm not going to be able to respond for a bit so take your time responding.

[Obvious]

well, mr. ryan cites the NIST's own reports, a CRC handbook, and a metal forging organization.

 

 

i can't prove it off hand. if you email mr. chertoff (pop mechanics) and ask him, i'm sure he'll tell you. no harm in it. i would do it, but you wouldn't believe me if i posted an email.

 

 

and yes, it's a damn good reason to discount that whole article in popular mechanics.

 

it's a dumb reason... but, you were planning on discounting it regardless of who wrote it.

[lord_casek]

the cutting devices that are used when using thermate are cylinders with a hole in one end. the thermate (read THERMATE, not thermite. there's a difference.) shoots out the end and cuts the desired target. that is what the govt has on hand.

 

the govt has kept alot fo things secret for a very long time. for example

the gulf of tonink, knowing the japanese were going to attack pearl harbor, the sr-71 balckbird, the stealth fighter, there are so many secrets that our govt has kept for a very long time.

 

as for people coming out now: there are tons of officials, former officials, intelligence agents (british and american), pentagon employees, etc etc etc.

 

 

the wtc's were evacuated and closed several times over the weeks and days prior to september 11th. there is testimony from employees of the wtc's that stae there were strange men coming in and out prior to. neil bush owns the security company who was contracted out to the wtc's. his contract ended on september 11 '01. larry silverstein..what was his insurance policy worth? billions...yep.

 

 

why would the govt overlook that jet fuel burning in the time it did not being able to melt through steel? because they have dumbed us down as a society. people were so inflamed by that event. the shock was even moreso. not many would have thought, "hey! none of this makes sense!"

at that time.

[lord_casek]

it's a dumb reason... but, you were planning on discounting it regardless of who wrote it.

 

 

no, it's not a dumb reason. would you read a book titled "why taking a bath in ivory soap bubble bath mix makes you look younger" if it were written by the grandson of the ivory soap president?

 

 

would you think he is completely unbiased?

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

No, if you can find me someone who doesn't work for the goverment or isn't related to someone who does then yes I will read it and consider it, and if by the end of the article I am satisfied with all of the information, I will stop thinking what I think now.

 

However that article hasn't been written yet, and that evidence to counter the evidence that has been piling up for the past few years hasn't come out.

 

The reason why I say that is simple. I think the goverment was in on it, not the entire administration, but a small group of people inside of it. Which makes basically everything written by the goverment about 9/11 tainted evidence.

 

Sort of like if the Rolling Stones put out a new CD, and the review of it that everyone was going by was written by Mick Jagger's neice.

 

I am also not saying that everything Alex Jones may say or do is fact. I know he has a agenda just like pretty much everyone else, but he puts out the facts that the goverment has been hiding from us, and hiding information to me makes it seem like there is more to be hidden. Perhaps thats just the way I think though.

[Church]

you fucking nerds stop talking about deepshit like this. your gonna get us all juiced.

[lord_casek]

are you afraif of a govt that you and i own?

[Stereotype V.0002]

As far as Thermate vs. Thermite, your original post and many of the conspiracy theories refer to both. Yes there is a difference with the addition of sulfur, but not one so dramatic to change any of what I said. You said yourself “didn't have any sulfur handy, so i couldn't make thermate. it just burns hotter than thermite. no difference in smoke.” It has generally the same short burn times as thermite although different temps, so I am still interested as to why you post a clip that you say is burning at 1500 degrees “months afterwards” when this would require something like 100,000 times more than what was required to take down the buildings.

 

That link covered the issue of Thermite/ate cutting anything…

 

”Thermite in general makes an ugly hole with molten metal drips/blobs. It doesn't make clean cuts. It's a powder that undergoes a violent chemical reaction as seen in the video below.

 

The thermite wouldn't have only needed to make a clean cut like the photo above, it would have also needed to cut sideways. Not an easy feat for thermite. You see, it's a powder which burns chaotically. Maybe with some device but no working device has been proven to me to work to cut a vertical column. You can direct it with a canister but that method wouldn't work to cut a column. The canister only makes a small hole. Nano-thermite has been talked about but it's uses fall far short of cutting these massive columns. It's in it's research stage. They include possible uses for welding molecular devices and possible use as a heat signature flare decoy. Then there is the a patent of a device which has been brought up but as of yet, there is no evidence the idea went any further. Does it even work? Even if did, they are "Ganged" together to make the cut. You would still need these boxes all over the columns. Once again the answer to this from the "scholars" is "rationalized technology". They need this technology to exist so it exist. There is some secret super thermite which can be placed in a canister which can survive 1,100 degree C so the primary charge doesn't go off.”

 

“that is what the govt has on hand.”

any proof of this? And which do they have on hand, technology that was invented by conspiracy theorists to make the thermate theory work, or the canisters you mentioned that would burn a hole instead of do what you say?

[Stereotype V.0002]

The US govt. has certainly never kept any secrets comparable to personally orchestrating 9-11, secret jets or even the Manhattan project don’t come close. People who are carefully screened and live on base without permission to leave and no outside contact isn’t exactly the same thing. The pearl harbor example is a conspiracy theory that has been proven wrong dozens of times, and even then isn’t the same as the government committing the act themselves. Give me an example of this magnitude where there is a proven conspiracy with nobody involved coming forward, and I will give you a delicious cookie. With frosting, and sprinkles.

 

The rest of your post doesn’t have anything close to proof, Im not sure it is even speculation. Where are these government officials who came forward with their parts in killing 3,000 people? Where are the widespread reports of strange activity? Links, real links with proof in them other than Dr. Jesus’SpringbreakInMiami’s insights? By your theory of using thermate or thermite or explosive Mexican food, the amount needed to be planted in the world trade center would be in the tons. Why haven’t the tens of thousands of employees who were there in the past days up till the planes hitting notice this? People being “dumbed down” doesn’t explain that, or why the government would go through with such an elaborate plot, meticulously planned, and they just happen to overlook it being physically impossible. It certainly doesn’t explain why a government that doesn’t mind killing thousands of people as motivation to invade countries it probably could have invaded anyway, or create domestic spying programs that existed before, wouldn’t kill a handful of nut jobs on the internet who caught on to their evil, evil plan.

 

ILOTSMYBRAIN - There are hundreds of websites, papers, and theories that argue against the 9-11 conspiracies from people who aren't associated with the government. Just a few examples...

http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm

 

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

 

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html (J.R. Barnett is a professor of fire protection engineering, and R.R. Biederman and R.D. Sisson, Jr. are professors of materials science and engineering, at Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, Massachusetts, 01609.) OMG MAD STREET CRED

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3143048862360929736&q=penn+and+teller+bullshit&hl=en

 

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000DA0E2-1E15-128A-9E1583414B7F0000

 

But the beauty of the conspiracy argument reminds me of the saying "you can't win an argument against an ignorant man", you can just say that all people who disagree with you are government agents and ignore all of their points. Even the popular mechanics article author hasn't been proven he is really Chertoff's nephew, the guy who owns prisonplanet just said "oh i called his mom" and everyone takes it as fact. That's the plus side of being an irrational nutjob I suppose.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

You're the one conforming to stereotypes not me.

 

As far as the information you posted, I'll look into it, and reply later.

[Issac Brock]

911 conspiracy theories are retarded. Sorry, read something from a source that gives you actual information, not charts that give you a tiny tidbit of information that is irrelevant alone.

[lord_casek]

As far as Thermate vs. Thermite, your original post and many of the conspiracy theories refer to both. Yes there is a difference with the addition of sulfur, but not one so dramatic to change any of what I said. You said yourself “didn't have any sulfur handy, so i couldn't make thermate. it just burns hotter than thermite. no difference in smoke.” It has generally the same short burn times as thermite although different temps, so I am still interested as to why you post a clip that you say is burning at 1500 degrees “months afterwards” when this would require something like 100,000 times more than what was required to take down the buildings.

 

That link covered the issue of Thermite/ate cutting anything…

 

”Thermite in general makes an ugly hole with molten metal drips/blobs. It doesn't make clean cuts. It's a powder that undergoes a violent chemical reaction as seen in the video below.

 

The thermite wouldn't have only needed to make a clean cut like the photo above, it would have also needed to cut sideways. Not an easy feat for thermite. You see, it's a powder which burns chaotically. Maybe with some device but no working device has been proven to me to work to cut a vertical column. You can direct it with a canister but that method wouldn't work to cut a column. The canister only makes a small hole. Nano-thermite has been talked about but it's uses fall far short of cutting these massive columns. It's in it's research stage. They include possible uses for welding molecular devices and possible use as a heat signature flare decoy. Then there is the a patent of a device which has been brought up but as of yet, there is no evidence the idea went any further. Does it even work? Even if did, they are "Ganged" together to make the cut. You would still need these boxes all over the columns. Once again the answer to this from the "scholars" is "rationalized technology". They need this technology to exist so it exist. There is some secret super thermite which can be placed in a canister which can survive 1,100 degree C so the primary charge doesn't go off.”

 

“that is what the govt has on hand.”

any proof of this? And which do they have on hand, technology that was invented by conspiracy theorists to make the thermate theory work, or the canisters you mentioned that would burn a hole instead of do what you say?

 

 

the gulf of tonkin incident has been disproven, eh?

WRONG!

it's been proven to be a false flag for war.

here's the proof.

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB132/tapes.htm

 

i expect an apology. i'll get to the rest later on.

[lord_casek]

911 conspiracy theories are retarded. Sorry, read something from a source that gives you actual information, not charts that give you a tiny tidbit of information that is irrelevant alone.

 

you ever read the full NIST report? you see that part about unexplained sulfur?

[Stereotype V.0002]

the gulf of tonkin incident has been disproven, eh?

WRONG!

it's been proven to be a false flag for war.

here's the proof.

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB132/tapes.htm

 

i expect an apology. i'll get to the rest later on.

 

What I wrote - "The pearl harbor example is a conspiracy theory that has been proven wrong dozens of times"

 

I also wrote "Give me an example of this magnitude where there is a proven conspiracy with nobody involved coming forward"

Throwing shells into the ocean is not the same thing as personally murdering 3,000 Americans. Not to mention the President himself basically admitted it was bullshit as you have pointed out, and the military have also, including the destroyer's commander. Wouldn't something on the scale of 9-11 have a few people admitting it? Think about it, unless you have concluded I am Cheney's illegitimate child by now.

[lord_casek]

What I wrote - "The pearl harbor example is a conspiracy theory that has been proven wrong dozens of times"

 

I also wrote "Give me an example of this magnitude where there is a proven conspiracy with nobody involved coming forward"

Throwing shells into the ocean is not the same thing as personally murdering 3,000 Americans. Not to mention the President himself basically admitted it was bullshit as you have pointed out, and the military have also, including the destroyer's commander. Wouldn't something on the scale of 9-11 have a few people admitting it? Think about it, unless you have concluded I am Cheney's illegitimate child by now.

 

 

ok, oak ridge facility. thousands of people working there, secluded for years. top secret. whole town was moved out and a new one was brought in.

 

 

and the sr-71. a space plane 50 years ago. don't you think techology has evolved in 50 years? don't you think that there are projects that have been under wraps since then? no one is stepping forward.

 

 

there are alot of things that are kept very secretive in govt's all over the world. this didn't have to be the whole of the govt. look at who is profiting. larry silverstein, dick cheney, poppy bush, the halliburton corp., the war time manufacturers.

 

look back to '99 and '00. dick cheney heading up PNAC. "america needs a new pearl harbour".

 

cheney taking control of the war dept. months before sept. 11th. the bunnker incident where he ordered the penatgons defenses to stand down.

 

the supposed terrorists being trained at our naval stations. their lack of ability as pilots, as testified to by their own instructors at private schools.

(private schools, which by the way do have ties with the CIA. do your own research on that one. i promise you'll find something)

 

it seems as though you're more hell bent on me coming up with the answers. and i do. i'm happy to. but i'd much rather you think for yourself instead of tryin to poke and prod at me like i'm supposed to give in one day. i won't. i've put enough of the puzzle together for myself. it's your turn to do your own research. go read the entire project ajax douments. our govt regyularly carried out terrorist activities. go read project northwoods.

go read some of the horrible things in the ENTIRE patriot act. things which the senate was forced to sign and not given any time to read. go read about SPP.gov and the systematic dismantling of our great nation.

stop trying to call me a tin foil hat wearing ufo chaser.

 

you guys like talking alot and citing these horrible references like popular science and its ilk. why don't you read real govt papers?

[lord_casek]

[Milk Grenades]

all this information is interseting.....yet, i'm old. after awhile it's like you can't do anything about it, so it's all just talking. that's all.

[Larry Pubes]

the secrecy argument is kinda bullshitish. you can't compare the secrecy surrounding stealth tech and programs, or the blackbird, or oakville, or the men in black that patrol the nsa city, or whatever else you want to highlight, with your assertion the US govt engineered 9/11 and is keeping it secret. there is a HUGE difference between, say, keeping a plane secret at the height of the cold war in which there is a believable threat to be deterred, and murdering 3000 of your countrymen to benefit a few top level scumbags that many people in govt/military can't stand anyways. and even if the secrecy is compartmentalized, there would still be a hefty amount of mid level players to worry about. i guess creepy threats to your life and family would be enough to shut anybody up, but...

[lord_casek]

but what? you cna't deny that there are people in our govt making massvice amounts of money off of this.

 

what about PNAC?

 

the PATRIOT ACT?

 

who is benefiting?

 

i think your argument is bogus.

[lord_casek]

all this information is interseting.....yet, i'm old. after awhile it's like you can't do anything about it, so it's all just talking. that's all.

 

 

you are a sheep. might as well roll over, learn to goose step now.

SIEG HEIL! really loud so bush can hear you. that way he knows your

allegiance is to HIM.

[Larry Pubes]

dude your auto-reflex when people disagree with your paranoid conclusions is pathetic.

seriously sweet tactic. there's this scumbag named don rumsfeld who's been using the same tactic lately, imagine that!

[lord_casek]

dude your auto-reflex when people disagree with your paranoid conclusions is pathetic.

seriously sweet tactic. there's this scumbag named don rumsfeld who's been using the same tactic lately, imagine that!

 

 

you sound like big news companies. the way you rattle off non-facts is amazing.

[Stereotype V.0002]

i think your argument is bogus.

 

[Larry Pubes]

hey casek, have you seen the penn&teller thing posted above? you should hit up that conspiracy club they featured and get your bitch on. i mean, even though there are hundreds of other real, provable problems associated with this admin that could be worked on a perhaps changed, you'll be doing your part stopping the onslaught of hitler 2 by preaching to a bunch of other lazy bullshitters. btw, what exactly are you doing to stop this terrible onslaught of police state fascism beyond bitching from your computer on 12oz? probably nothing eh? it's okay, i don't give a shit, so you don't need to write back trying to impress with your guerrilla credentials.

 

hmmm..i sound like 'big news'? so big news is rational and logical..okay then!

interesting how you use 'big news' to try and derogate me, yet much of your shambled together theory gleans info from...big news companies. woopsy!

as for 'non-facts'...you're the master of non-facts buddy whilst also being the master of speculation and conjecture. anyhow, i was hoping to see a reply to stereotype's post on thermate/ite.

[lord_casek]

what do i do? i make phone calls to senators. i try and educate people. i educate myself.

what do you do?

 

much of my shambled together theories? i present you with document after document after document. non-facts? have you ever read the patriot act? have you? PNAC? the NIST report?

the 0-11 commission report? the whole of operation NORTHWOODS? the project AJAX papers?

 

so you are rational and logical? that's a joke. i notice how you like to insult when you really don't have a clear answer to anything i pose. people like you pull the same tactics when posed with hard evidence.

 

that's fine.

[Larry Pubes]

why yes i have hotshot, i just don't take disparate bits of info and throw it at a wall and call it an inside job to benefit the nwo like you. and whoa, you read the WHOLE OP NORTHWOODS DOCUMENT??? holy cow, i'm impressed with your thoroughness of something that didn't actually ever happen. insults? you're insulted by the stuff i say to you? have i ever called you a fucking idiot? i seem to recall taking you up on bohemian and you lashing out at me with various names. and you've done it to plenty of other on here as well. sherock might not mind being called a 'sheep' and insinuating nazi/fascist support, but i'm sure just about everybody else on here would have a problem with that sort of garbage. your 'hard evidence' is a fucking sham, and quite a few people have been in here and called you on it. i personally have asked you numerous times for evidence, and you ALWAYS either don't respond(as you are doing with stereotypes comments on thermate/ite), or you post something totally peripheral or totally unrelated as 'evidence'.

i'm educated enough on this stuff to know your full of shit. i used to try and educate people, but i don't have the motivation to beat my head against a wall pursuing a 'theory' that nobody has yet to make a great case for, let alone yourself. i don't call senators like you though...that's pretty intense dude. plus i'm not an american, a 'true patriot' like yourself, fighting the evil doers of the govt with...phone calls to priviledged white guys that couldn't give a fuck. but hey, just for shits, what do you say to these senators? who have you personally called and talked to? how's that going for you? getting results are you?

[lord_casek]

i'm going to answer stereotypes question about the thermite device. i'm still looking for the company that manufactures them. why don't you guys do your own research?

 

what do the senators say? some listen. some are genuine with their answers.

sometimes their interns don't even answer the phones. it's frustrating. mostly, i call about the net neutrality bill (as of late). i'm trying to stop the

issues that i really care about. NAIS, etc. stuff that can fuck up the little people here for the benefit of the corporate agenda. stuff that counts. the real i.d act is the next big issue i'm going after, but there's still a chance with net neutrality.

 

and my evicence isn't hard enough for you? .mil and .gov links aren't hard evidence?

the names of the documents should be all i need to say, you guys should be looking this shit up yourselves.

 

operation northwoods never happened? of course not. kennedy got word of it and fired off those generals in his cabinet that came up with that plan. operation ajax, however, did happen. real american terrorism.

 

you keep on keeping on.