Ron Paul Revolution!!!!

[the.crooked]

and I don't mean higher ed.

[LIVERWURST*]

I pay almost double the taxes of my married-child having-home owning peers at work and our incomes are similar. The system is set up for people that create the nuclear family and if you've ever been to the projects, you'd know that the "welfare state" you're talking about isn't creating any paradise. You people live in a dream land that will never come to be and thus will always have a struggle to pat yourselves on the back for. The common ground for your idealism is the negative of what is, not a genuine ideal to strive towards. Just like Christian conservatives claiming to be prosecuted by some mysterious god hating "liberal" force, your ideas can't live without being martyrs.

 

My girlfriend lived in Zimbabwe where public schooling doesn't exist, only private schools. She said entire communities can't read and write and their intelligence reflects it. I'm not talking about the rural villages, I'm talking about the people in working class type of jobs (for over there). If you're against public schooling entirely, I doubt you've really thought out the impact it will have. If you're more or less for vouchers, I won't hate your idea because I'm by no means a fan of current schools, but those vouchers are still paid through taxes.

[shai]

Thank you!

 

This is another point I've tried to make, and was met with sunny smiles and blind optimism.

 

"Get rid of federal taxes, and you can kiss the Department of Trasportation and public education goodbye. What do you propose to replace these with?"- typical question I ask a Ron Paul supporter

 

"It will be taken care of. The free market will step in."- Ron Paul supporter

 

"So you're saying that you'd rather replace the DOT with Bechtel or Halliburton, and have to directly pay then to repair your local infrastructure at whatever the market will bear? Or, you'd replace public schools with parochial schools, and have your kids taught that the universe is about 7,000 years old and that abortion is a crime?"- Point

 

"Dude...that's not gonna happen. When the free market...free market...free market..."- Counterpoint

 

I start to zone out in a hypnotic trance after hearing the phrases "free market, "read Mise", "Austrian economics" and "gold standard" repeated over and over. Then, I start to wonder what the hell is going to happen in America in the next twenty years.

[lord_casek]

Thank you!

 

This is another point I've tried to make, and was met with sunny smiles and blind optimism.

 

"Get rid of federal taxes, and you can kiss the Department of Trasportation and public education goodbye. What do you propose to replace these with?"- typical question I ask a Ron Paul supporter

 

"It will be taken care of. The free market will step in."- Ron Paul supporter

 

"So you're saying that you'd rather replace the DOT with Bechtel or Halliburton, and have to directly pay then to repair your local infrastructure at whatever the market will bear? Or, you'd replace public schools with parochial schools, and have your kids taught that the universe is about 7,000 years old and that abortion is a crime?"- Point

 

"Dude...that's not gonna happen. When the free market...free market...free market..."- Counterpoint

 

I start to zone out in a hypnotic trance after hearing the phrases "free market, "read Mise", "Austrian economics" and "gold standard" repeated over and over. Then, I start to wonder what the hell is going to happen in America in the next twenty years.

 

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/index.html

 

http://www.devvy.com/notax.html

[shai]

Casek- You do realize I am not including you in that statement, right?

 

Well, consider yourself indemnified. Mostly it's directed towards some of the punk (looking) kids I see with Ron Paul buttons on. I initiate conversations with them to see whether they are really up to speed on his platform and not just going with that whole teenage "DOOD FUKKK THE CIA FBI AND IRS" line of reasoning.

 

You really believe in him. You know what I think. 'Nuff said.

[lord_casek]

Casek- You do realize I am not including you in that statement, right?

 

Well, consider yourself indemnified. Mostly it's directed towards some of the punk (looking) kids I see with Ron Paul buttons on. I initiate conversations with them to see whether they are really up to speed on his platform and not just going with that whole teenage "DOOD FUKKK THE CIA FBI AND IRS" line of reasoning.

 

You really believe in him. You know what I think. 'Nuff said.

 

 

i just read a neat article about "if marijuana were legalized" they could tax it like smokes

and reap in $38 billion a year.

 

and while i'm not a big tax advocate, i do agree that "sin taxes" could help a ton with our declining economy.

[shai]

And I know that is one tax that you would gladly pay (chuff, chuff). In Berkeley, I think the only taxes collected are the business and property taxes the clubs pay. Outside of that, it's still undeclared income.

 

I have no real disagreements with anyone who genuinely supports any candidate who has done the research and weighed the possibilities. It is, after all, a free country.

 

What I'm doing is more like a litmus test, I think.

[lord_casek]

it's good to explore your options.

[angelofdeath]

I pay almost double the taxes of my married-child having-home owning peers at work and our incomes are similar. The system is set up for people that create the nuclear family and if you've ever been to the projects, you'd know that the "welfare state" you're talking about isn't creating any paradise. You people live in a dream land that will never come to be and thus will always have a struggle to pat yourselves on the back for. The common ground for your idealism is the negative of what is, not a genuine ideal to strive towards. Just like Christian conservatives claiming to be prosecuted by some mysterious god hating "liberal" force, your ideas can't live without being martyrs.

 

My girlfriend lived in Zimbabwe where public schooling doesn't exist, only private schools. She said entire communities can't read and write and their intelligence reflects it. I'm not talking about the rural villages, I'm talking about the people in working class type of jobs (for over there). If you're against public schooling entirely, I doubt you've really thought out the impact it will have. If you're more or less for vouchers, I won't hate your idea because I'm by no means a fan of current schools, but those vouchers are still paid through taxes.

 

 

before the prussian public schools were brought to america, travelers said they encountered the most highly educated people they have met. the welfare creates poverty. they started a 'war on poverty' in the 1960's, they subsidized it, and the poverty rate has not reduced one damn bit. they actually got more of it.

 

i think the federal government should be out of schooling completely. that is what the constitution and common sense dictates. local public schools should be run as the local tax payers want them run. i would be much happier with just eliminating the dept of ed and then arguing about the merits of local public schooling at a later date.

[angelofdeath]

Thank you!

 

This is another point I've tried to make, and was met with sunny smiles and blind optimism.

 

"Get rid of federal taxes, and you can kiss the Department of Trasportation and public education goodbye. What do you propose to replace these with?"- typical question I ask a Ron Paul supporter

 

"It will be taken care of. The free market will step in."- Ron Paul supporter

 

"So you're saying that you'd rather replace the DOT with Bechtel or Halliburton, and have to directly pay then to repair your local infrastructure at whatever the market will bear? Or, you'd replace public schools with parochial schools, and have your kids taught that the universe is about 7,000 years old and that abortion is a crime?"- Point

 

"Dude...that's not gonna happen. When the free market...free market...free market..."- Counterpoint

 

I start to zone out in a hypnotic trance after hearing the phrases "free market, "read Mise", "Austrian economics" and "gold standard" repeated over and over. Then, I start to wonder what the hell is going to happen in America in the next twenty years.

 

i just think you have no faith in humans, shai. you seem to think that people cannot exist without big bro taking care of their business and the only reason for thinking this is simply because they have done it for so long. perhaps you think that art, energy, housing, water, science didnt exist before the federal government?

how do you think most long roads were operated during the 19th century? they were private roads. but all that aside, if the DOT was eliminated, localities would do what they do best, and monopolize the roads just like the feds do. i'd much rather have a state or county controlling roads than the feds, and for the most part they do. but if washington had it their way, they would control everything.

 

i think there are much bigger fish to fry right now than to worry about ron paul supporters being roads' socialists' or roads' capitalists' right now.

[thinksmall]

Crooked, John Holt and John Gatto teach pedagogy. lol. John Holt and John Gatto were both teachers. John Holt's books mostly consist of direct observations from the classroom. John Gatto does too, he just doesn't write 300 pages about it with the smallest but important details.

 

The "child who knows" quote has a lot of context behind it also. I'm sorry for quoting that without quoting one of his whole books. BTW, he also said that metaphorically. The "A child" doesn't necessarily mean a child who gets A's.

 

I've been to a school where they spank kids in the assembly hall with the entire school watching. But I would never have mentioned that to prove the point you tried to prove. Aren't you just contradicting me anyways? You didn't mention the other Holt quote that said what you just tried to prove. Are you selective?

 

Anyways, it's hard for some winners to understand what it feels like losing. That is one of the reasons why public education is wrong. The idea that if you can't walk down one road, you should fall of the sidewalk is terrible (given that there are many roads, but those are sealed off).

 

Competing schools with a correct economical context is the best thing there is when it comes to public schools. Obviously we don't know the 'super-curriculum' yet. Can't competition find it for us?

 

^I have my doubts about this. I also truly believe that a super-curriculum cannot exist unless it guides the child through his or her ENTIRE life: from conception to death. Which I cannot agree with. For a more solid version of prosperity, the best option available is choice. (note the word option and its relative, choice. lol.)

[shai]

i just think you have no faith in humans, shai. you seem to think that people cannot exist without big bro taking care of their business and the only reason for thinking this is simply because they have done it for so long. perhaps you think that art, energy, housing, water, science didnt exist before the federal government?

how do you think most long roads were operated during the 19th century? they were private roads. but all that aside, if the DOT was eliminated, localities would do what they do best, and monopolize the roads just like the feds do. i'd much rather have a state or county controlling roads than the feds, and for the most part they do. but if washington had it their way, they would control everything.

 

i think there are much bigger fish to fry right now than to worry about ron paul supporters being roads' socialists' or roads' capitalists' right now.

 

The point about my not having much faith in people directly stems from the socialist/welfare model that has been around since FDR and the New Deal. You ARE right on target as far as how I feel about that.

 

As far as local taxes taking care of roads, cool. Got no problems there. What about the Interstate and US highway systems, though?

 

What I envision is something like medieval England, where the troll demands a piece of silver, lest none shall pass.

 

/yesheavyirony

 

As far as the education issue, well...I see both sides of it. Rote teaching didn't work too well for me, but I'm no dummy. However, I had a lot of teachers who thought I was remedial, or that I was autistic, or that I needed drugs...in the end, I just was better off learning at my own pace. I think I learned a hell of a lot more AFTER school than I did from school. I mean that as in, when I was a student, I would go home and read...also, once my formal education ended, that didn't mean I didn't stop learning. In fact, I would say quite the opposite has proven to be the case.

 

I think they meant well, but they were well-meaning within a set of guidelines that are tantamount to holy scripture. What's funny is that teaching models are constantly being updated and the old ones are often considered archaic, if not barbaric.

 

I'd like to hear what some of the teachers of 12 oz. have to say about this.

[angelofdeath]

"What I envision is something like medieval England, where the troll demands a piece of silver, lest none shall pass."

 

i used to think that on alot of things before my opinions became more 'radical.'

then i started thinking that those arguments are the same arguments used for communism. the point being... on things like healthcare, roads, etc, some argue that 'no one will be able to travel' or that 'no one will be insured' etc etc. but in the end its also an argument for nationalizing food. why those capitalists wont allow people to eat unless they pay! but as it goes most people make out ok. and those that are indeed poor off (im not talking about wheel chair bound types) would rather spend their money on lottery tickets or alcohol than feeding their family for the week. (ex girlfriends family, no joke)

so once i started looking at the forest instead of the trees, alot of things made sense.

 

but im not trying to skirt the road socialism issue.

the 'internal improvements' argument goes back real far. back to the original granddaddy liberal (classical) thomas jefferson and grand daddy neo con/statist liberal, alexander hamilton and their debates on the issue. the interstate highway system was supposed to be a defense measure. that is how they got funding for it.

but it is in the states best interest to build decent routes to trade. the US is a great free trade zone. that is the one of the best things that the constitution did, create a free trade zone.

but atleast if they want to build roads that span the country, write an amendment giving the feds jurisdiction. as of right now, they dont.

[shai]

There was a great deal of irony in my statement. As a matter of fact, you could probably have picked up my statement with a magnet if you had wished to do so.

 

I don't really like arguing with you, AOD, because you really DO know what you're talking about, and I'd say that 80% of the time we're on the same page, ideologically speaking. I won't go as far as saying you're always right, but it's mostly a matter of perspective.

 

This country has come a long way since the "40 acres and a mule" days. I think the New Deal and set-asides have done less to help people, and more to appeal to their sense of entitlement because they feel "the system" has left them behind, and it owes them a fair one.

 

But, do we throw it all out and hope for a brighter, tax free tomorrow where everyone has enough because the market is capable of producing at the levels the market demands? Or do we try to find a third path?

 

That's why I'm trying to get conversation going here about the things that don't seem as cut and dried, in my mind. A lot of the Ron Paul folks tell me that "he listens to the people..." So, let me be the voice of dissent that makes you question him enough to say, "That's all well and good, but...what if (fill in the blank) happens, and causes (fill in the blank)? What's your contingency plan in that case?"

 

I'm not trying to poke holes in the guy, but I'm saying, "These are my concerns, what about me? How is this going to affect/benefit/screw me in the next four years?"

 

It would do some of you some good to look at him as just another politician. Yes. what he proposes is striking, and if you haven't heard it all before, very revolutionary. But, it's a little out of step with America in the year of our Lord 2008.

[the.crooked]

Crooked, John Holt and John Gatto teach pedagogy. lol. John Holt and John Gatto were both teachers. John Holt's books mostly consist of direct observations from the classroom. John Gatto does too, he just doesn't write 300 pages about it with the smallest but important details.

 

Fair enough.

 

 

My point was that there must be some base. Some sense of public curriculum.

 

I think Holt's point about the child who knows is more inline with what we are saying rather than in favor of eliminating public education as a whole.

 

I did fine in school, because, like shai, I did my own thing. I made sure teachers understood I didn't care about grades but actually about learning.

 

 

But the students, who need the help, can only be helped if there is something to help them with.

 

 

Another thing about so called vouchers and letting "competition" model curriculum, etc:

 

Public institutions can not refuse the service of education to a child based on skin color, religious background, etc. But a private institution such as a private school, can. They, as any business does, reserve the right to refuse service to any patron, without question.

 

I went to a catholic school for one semester. The reason I didn't continue to go there, was because I did not get any financial aid. Why did I not get financial aid? Was it because we had too much money? I should think not, a single mother and her child do not make enough money to support the costs of me going to that school. I didn't get it because they knew I was atheist. Circumstantial as that may sound, it was clearly evident during discussions with the administration of the school and other faculty and staff that monetary desicions were based with a certain ideological bias behind them.

 

 

There is no reason to assume this type of action will not happen in this utopic vision of free market education you guys are proposing.

 

AOD nailed much of my problem with the things you guys discuss when he said that Shai has no faith in people. Absolutely right. People do nothing to show me that they know on the whole what is best, or that they in their limited insight will think about the larger whole when making decisions. I have no faith in people to care about universal adequacy and access in private education when we can't even make it happen publicly.

 

Do you think any private institution that can make more money by keeping class sizes small and giving better educations to people who will pay the msot for it will help all those who are in need now? No, if anything it only furthers the potential gap between those whom education needs to be fixed to help and those who already have the help they need.

[the.crooked]

It would do some of you some good to look at him as just another politician. Yes. what he proposes is striking, and if you haven't heard it all before, very revolutionary. But, it's a little out of step with America in the year of our Lord 2008.

 

A winner is you.

[shai]

I really don't want to steal any of this guy's shine, for the record. I think any candidate who gets young people involved and wanting to vote and working for change is a good thing. I actually like Obama for the same reason.

 

If what I'm saying doesn't resonate with what you feel, then feel free to pass on it. I'm not an expert, just a skeptic.

 

The reason I think Ron Paul is a worthy phenomenon to examine is the fact that I live in Berkeley, and a lot of people are actually jumping ship to the Republican party to support his campaign. In the rest of the country, that wouldn't really interest me, but in Berkeley it's pretty significant.

[thinksmall]

I think Shai wins.

[shai]

thinksmall- It's not about winning or losing.

 

Oh, SNAP! It's a presidential election. Haha, silly me. My bad.

 

When certain people (read- lifelong radicals and progressives) start voting Republican in Berkeley, you better believe I'm gonna notice. Not only are they voting Republican, but they don't really seem to think it's all that big of a deal...or be paying attention to the entire slate this guy is pushing. THAT'S shocking. These are people who have been pushing for stuff like public health programs and social services for the homless and mentally ill for decades...it's a pretty big shift.

 

Or, maybe I'm not as conservative as I thought.

 

What I think is that he's charismatic by NOT being charismatic. His sincerity, plain talk, and congressional record are appealing to people who see politicians as commodities that can be bought or sold. I'm not so cynical as to feel one way or the other, it really depends on the situation. I basically think people will vote for the candidate who has values that resonate with their own.

 

So, finding out all these lefties and radicals I've known for a while are closet Libertarians who believe in the free market/gold standard is a revelation on the level of, say...finding out your dad is gay.

[thinksmall]

Yeah, I know whatchu talkin' bout Shai. The Grammaton Cleric syndrome. You don't know freedom, until you meet her.

 

Crooked, is it impossible to have a majority of schools take part in small classes?

 

The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election

http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/the-mouse-that-roared-why-ron-paul-won-the-election/

[russell jones]

What made me realize Ron Paul wasn't right for our country was looking at a calender and realizing it is 2008, not 1789.

[thinksmall]

^What made me realize Obama wasn't right for our country was looking at his face and saying, "Wait a minute. You're not Jimmy Carter." Just kidding. Maybe a pint of seriousness.

 

Wait. Shai, were you saying the same as russell? Or that 2008 is not ready for Ron paul. If you sayin' what russell is sayin', I want takebacks. No win for you.

[shai]

Not exactly. In light of the path the country took after the New Deal, it just wouldn't be feasible. Let's say, 1938. That's a little more reasonable.

[shai]

I missed something completely earlier, and it's pretty huge.

 

The odds are that Ron Paul is not going to win in November. But, I predict that he's going to do well enough that the pundits are going to notice.

 

Let's say he pulls 10% of the vote. (I'm being very, very generous, but it makes it easier to make my point.) 10% as a representative sample of the US population would be around 30 million people. That's a lot of people...and, you can be certain that some of them are going to be politicized enough to want to enter politics to try and change the system from within. A good example- casek mentioned that he was interested in possibly running for city council where he lives.

 

So, expect to see a ripple effect of more young people deciding to participate in government as a result of candidates like Ron Paul and Obama in the next decade or so. Taking the long view is something I like to do when I don't know what else to do...haha.

[LIVERWURST*]

Actually 10% of the Republican vote (being roughly half the country) would represent more like 5%, but you're wrong either way.

 

He's got 16 delegates in a field that thus far has tallied 1346, he represents about 1% of the Republican party and thus about 0.5% of the voting population. Also, Pat Buchanon got 18 delegates in 92 and besides random extreme headline grabbing quotes, the guy isn't taken seriously by anyone except the same 0.5% towards the extreme end of spectrum.

 

I like Paul too, but you guys need a reality check acting like ravenous irrational animals towards other candidates.

[shai]

I did throw in the "I'm being generous" qualifier, MRL.

 

As I say in elections, sports, and relationships, time will tell. You can't deny that his popularity has been an interesting phenomenon. It could have a longer lasting impact than you would expect.

[angelofdeath]

crazier things have happened. eastern europe was first communized, then decommunized. the american colonies were 'tyrannized' (what they dealt with is NOTHING like what we have to deal with today) and were ruled by a mercantilist government. if you look at the part of the population that actively supported secession from great britian, you would be surprised at the figures. it wasnt much different than the ron paul supporters.

 

granted changing america back to the constitution is highly unlikely, absent a full scale revolt, but it is possible. and history has showed us that crazier things have happenend.

 

there is estimates that float around the gun circles. there is something like 240 million guns in private hands. and if 1% of the gun owning population, just one percent, revolted against the federal government, told them to get the F out of their states, and sent the declaration of independence back to the halls of congress, that would be 750K pissed off 'rebels' fighting a guerrilla war on their own territory. and that isnt really even counting the deserters from the military who would not shoot their own people and would join the 'resistance.' the british empire cant even control the IRA and what are their numbers? how many insurgents are there in iraq? and they have the whole fighting US military pinned down in an unwinnable war

?

 

exactly.

that is why the feds could never win, absent nuking the whole country.

and they know that.

but im digressing big time.

[shai]

That's all well and good, but this loops right back to my original statement. People have grown accustomed to this style of government. If you propose an insurrection to "give them back their liberty", they're not going to understand you...they're just going to see it from perspective that they were raised to believe.

 

So we've read some books. We've seen the forest for the trees, and know what lies are being told and why they're told.

 

Would you give a four year old a hatchet and a bag of food, take him to the edge of the wilderness, and tell him that he was free to do whatever he pleased and really expect him to understand what that meant? No, he'd start crying for his mommy and his toys.

 

The US, in spite of the ideals it was founded on, right now is at a point in its history where the people are dependent on a central government to deal with all the big things. And, do you think that was by accident or by design? I suppose it depends on your level of enlightenment and how many history books you have read.

 

The only thing I could see working in this country in this era would be a massive civil disobedience movement based on a tax/voting strike. If no one votes for the candidates, then none of the candidates won. Will they be installed regardless? Then we clearly live in a totalitarian society. What would the Feds do if people said, "Hey, we didn't want these wars, and until we have a say in how are money is spent, we're not going to give you another thin dime." Start shooting people? That's called many things...coersion, terrorism, fascism...the fact is that I don't think enough Americans would understand a armed rebellion, because they have a defeatist attitude towards the government, and would probably support any fighting in the streets of the US getting squashed because that threatens THEIR comfort zone.

 

However, if the people (or a good percentage of them) CHOSE TO NOT PARTICIPATE and observed the results, then you'd probably see a lot more outrage and far more tangible results. Either it would force the Feds to play their hand, or it would put them in bargaining mode.

 

I'm just sort of brainstorming here. I think civil disobedience is a far more effective tool than violence. If the Palestinians decided to call a general strike and stopped working for the Israelis tomorrow, you better believe the Israelis would start listening to what the Palestinians had to say in jig time.

[10sicz.chick]

That's all well and good, but this loops right back to my original statement. People have grown accustomed to this style of government. If you propose an insurrection to "give them back their liberty", they're not going to understand you...they're just going to see it from perspective that they were raised to believe.

 

So we've read some books. We've seen the forest for the trees, and know what lies are being told and why they're told.

 

Would you give a four year old a hatchet and a bag of food, take him to the edge of the wilderness, and tell him that he was free to do whatever he pleased and really expect him to understand what that meant? No, he'd start crying for his mommy and his toys.

 

i think this is a bit of a mischaracterization since it would be the equivalent of a RP President making all of his promised changes overnight. He has never claimed that the changes would be rapid, however he would need to make enough changes in his first four years for people to see a difference and insure his reelection. Then in his final four he would need to create more and reinforce the changes from the previous four years so that voters were solid in understanding and seeing proof of the benefits of those changes so that at the end of those 8 year, the next president would be one that would continue on with Freedom Movement vision.

 

Gaining back our freedom would take at least a generation. We wouldn't be starting over....we would going back. Like riding a bike.

[10sicz.chick]

I did throw in the "I'm being generous" qualifier, MRL.

 

As I say in elections, sports, and relationships, time will tell. You can't deny that his popularity has been an interesting phenomenon. It could have a longer lasting impact than you would expect.

 

why is freedom and people wanting freedom such a phenomena?

 

it statements like yours that make me truly see how little freedom we have and how numb the population is. the population is so use to living in a narrow bandwidth of freedom that on the surface seems to be wider than anyone else's so they think thats all the life has to offer when it comes to freedom. In addition our loss of freedom has been incremental with changes spanning over a generation at a minimum and often over several...that it isn't readily apparent. Therefore...to minimize the pain and sense of abandonment of the latchers from the breast, gaining back our freedom is going to take at least a generation i would imagine.