seeking Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 hey shok, totally unrelated to any of the other discussion, but you still talking to george and the guys at big daddy? i used to write for them back when it first came out, but after losing all motivation in trying to be funny, i havent been in contact in about a year or so. if you see em, tell em 'cold crush rus' sends his regards... (oh, and as always, much respect on your work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 Will do chap- nice one. we're just finishing issue 9. I'm working on the cover as we speak ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mud_buddha Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 Re: Re: Organic Battle Weapons Originally posted by locationtwelve Quite possibly. It's only in recent years that the mainstream strips like 2000AD have become full colour and this must have played a significant part in the development of comic book art. But my knowledge on the subject is also very limited. This is true. Full process color (as opposed to the four color process, which was much more limited in terms of what it could print) has only been in the comics industry for 15-20 years. Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns was one of the earliest major examples with it's watercolored "colors" (by Lynn Varley.) Since then, people like Bisley, Bill Sienkiewicz (my hero,) Alex Ross and Dave McKean, who in earlier times would have been relegated to pen and ink, have been able to do fully painted books. This has had two effects, one it has inspired more comic book artists (wannabes and pros alike) to move into painting and second, and most importantly, it's kept people like Bisley in the industry. Previously, with people like Mike Kaluta, Jeff Jones, Bernie Wrightson and Frazetta, the desire to paint has meant leaving comics behind (at least partially.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 thanks B- great information. it surprises me there isn't more dialogue about the relationship between comics and Writing. one thing that i find particularly inspirational about bisley is his flexibility in style and technique. anyone that's seen his 2000AD work on ABC warriors will know that he can annihilate most comers in black ink alone. he's also not scared to switch techniques on the fly if it suits his purpose and also he freely mixes styles in a frame - you often see him dropping cartoony characters with the real-ish muscle bound stuff. i think he's an example to us all in terms of styles. To paraphrase Poe One from Style Elementz: "If you go up against someone who has it all, style and power, you're going to lose no question." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 Oh, and Mr Dek: "So is this a style/technique you feel is moving boundaries, or are you still looking further down the line at something else? " I'm ALWAYS looking further down the line! One of the reasons i've rarely given flicks to the media until recently is because when i got asked and it came to choosing i realised that none of them satisfied me in comparison to what i had in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mud_buddha Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 Originally posted by Shok1-SINSTARS England thanks B- great information. it surprises me there isn't more dialogue about the relationship between comics and Writing. one thing that i find particularly inspirational about bisley is his flexibility in style and technique. anyone that's seen his 2000AD work on ABC warriors will know that he can annihilate most comers in black ink alone. he's also not scared to switch techniques on the fly if it suits his purpose and also he freely mixes styles in a frame - you often see him dropping cartoony characters with the real-ish muscle bound stuff. i think he's an example to us all in terms of styles. To paraphrase Poe One from Style Elementz: "If you go up against someone who has it all, style and power, you're going to lose no question." If you like Bisley's ability to switch up techniques styles at the drop of a hat you should really check out work by Bill Sienkiewicz. He was one of the earliest comic artists to move from pen and ink work into full mixed-media mayhem. I posted some of his work in the "what inspires you?" thread. As for Bisley, the greatest example of what you're talking about with himi is a full page from Judgement on Gotham, a book he did for DC in 1992. It's a Judge Dredd/ Batman crossover and in it, because of the Scarecrow, Dredd faces his greatest fear- a bunch of cute little bunnies and teddy bears, etc. A classic image (and a good joke if you're familiar with the Dredd character.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 If you like Bisley's ability to switch up techniques styles at the drop of a hat you should really check out work by Bill Sienkiewicz i'm a big fan of him also- my favourite was probably Elektra Assassin. I didn't really like Stray Toasters, it was too weird, but i did like the mad mixed media stuff with bits of machines and stuff. he's really strong on expressions i think, and also he tends to shift into that boxy square style often which reminds me of old UK graff. he has some really weird devices for movement too. As for Bisley, the greatest example of what you're talking about with himi is a full page from Judgement on Gotham i have it- amazing book. and that one frame is really special. i really like the page where anderson looks into batman's mind ("weird!"). bisley has the ability to rehash old imagery and ideas and twist them into something even better. did he ever do wolverine? that would be mindblowing... also have to mention frank miller, especially his work on Sin City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chester copperpot Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 are shok and skore the same person? - isnt that last piece skore ? . been a fan of his work for years. shok seems like maybe the epitome (sp?) of how that type of graffiti should look... and big ups to sighting influences... and big ups to rick griffen and that flying eyeball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 bloody hell! no! we were siamese twins but we got seperated (lol) that wall seems to be confusing people so- skore (red piece on left), Shok by Wow123 (he had an outline he wanted to do) SIN ES by Wow, characters and background by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 oh and mr Dek... hahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
six Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 Shock is the man! i remember that "props the hard way" peice, in a skills magazine; way back in the day.:king: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hushwon Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 :D tat shits hard as fuck...diggin that female...nicely done:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anger inside Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 man this guy is completely sick. dope stuff. if i ever visit the UK i'd like to paint with this dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locationtwelve Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 Originally posted by Shok1-SINSTARS England oh and mr Dek... hahahaha! Don't forget mr Dek!!! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 Dok.. Dak? Dook? Dek...! I remember you m'boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.LonelyHeart Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 http://www.yourphotos.com/users/4499/props.jpg'> this is ill...keep up the dopeness....ya dirty limey mr.mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Ya dirty limey Hahahaha! English people are very clean... its our attitude that stinks ;) This is a pretty old piece now (it was... 92? 93?) but i'm thinking of doing a part 2 to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZEK Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Comical Yeah how can anyone forget dek? Yeah shok's stuff is nice, maybe a bit too nice...saying that in a good way tho:crazy: On the subject of comics relating to graff, I love the way TOYS crew in Denmark use classic characters like Donald Duck a lot. Especially because, as I grew up there, I know most Danish kids grow up on Donald Duck comics, so it means a lot more to them...does to me anyway. http://www.toyscrew.dk/toysbill/graffbill/productionjpg/produc_08.jpg'> http://www.toyscrew.dk/toysbill/graffbill/productionjpg/produc_15.jpg'> http://www.toyscrew.dk/toysbill/graffbill/productionjpg/produc_12.jpg'> http://www.toyscrew.dk/toysbill/graffbill/productionjpg/produc_07.jpg'> All stolen from www.toyscrew.dk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Okay Mr. Shok... I have a question for you. (Ah... the table has turned!) Do you mean to say influence or do you really mean inspire? I ask because to be influenced by another artist basically means you're copying what they've worked hard to conjure up. Whereas to be inspired by that artist you've taken the images in your head and re-worked them to your own pieces. Neither is a bad thing, but I think both words mean something very different. And I don't believe you were really influenced by Bisley or Seinkowicz, but more inspired. Also, you mentioned that you can't really claim one style because it just doesn't fit you. (Not your exact words of course, but what I got out of it) I find this very interesting because I too find it difficult to stick with one way of doing things. I think it's a matter of boredom myself. Though I also believe that it keeps the mind fresh and open. Like you said, paying the originators of this culture some respect by carrying on the tradition of innovation. If only a small portion of the writers out there felt the same way. Even 20%. I think looking through the pages of a graffiti magazine would be something quite different. And yes, you Brits are very clean painters but your attitude does stink. Well, at least on Only Fools and Horses it seems that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.LonelyHeart Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Re: Ya dirty limey Originally posted by Shok1-SINSTARS England Hahahaha! English people are very clean... its our attitude that stinks ;) This is a pretty old piece now (it was... 92? 93?) but i'm thinking of doing a part 2 to it... hehe..it's like.."LIVE internet chat with SHOK one"... yeah I've seen a couple issues of big daddy as well...and I gotta say..fresh you brits are alright I guess... what's with the bad teeth though? in fact... here's what I'm talking about- :D hahaa.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fr8oholic Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Originally posted by beardo ha, i was just going to say that you had been on this site a while back, and there you are. the 'props the hard way' piece was hugely inspirational to me when i was coming up, and definately got adapted as my personal motto. beardo beat me to it... i recall seeing that in a graff mag and tearing it out immediatly to hang it up. purely bangin stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 "Okay Mr. Shok... I have a question for you. (Ah... the table has turned!) " uh oh! the big payback! "Do you mean to say influence or do you really mean inspire?" well this is where simple words won't do the job. we run into problems with usage of word like bite, influence, copy... the truth is that the way that the human mind creates is immeasurably complex and is full of grey areas and issues of degree. In the sense that you are using the words, i suppose inspire is more appropriate. Me and my friend Dref used to annoy people because we used to run a little logo- it was an apple with a bite out, crossed out. meaning "Don't Bite". Some people got a little offended by it. now i have a pretty specific definition of biting myself. part of it is to do with taking and not giving credit... The meaning of the logo for me was not that though, it was really more a comment about how ignorant most of us (myself included) really are about the chains of connection and influence within our culture and how it all cross connects to the rest of art. For example, I guess we could have a conversation about who first used drop shadows in graff. But i'm not altogether sure how relevant that really is overall because they were already there in graphic and comic book art. and Writing did not invent the letterform overall, it only took the ball and ran with it. What interests me in graff is the thought that we have created things that are not present anywhere else in human creativity... the idea that some kid somewhere in some place in the world might have an idea that nobody in the history of mankind has ever had. is this possible? it seems to me that it is... because our context is unique. but the problem is also that we sit with a huge weight and temptation of previous work behind us. even if you openly refuse to look at other art in the quest for some kind of purity within our culture, it is impossible to avoid the hundreds of images pumped into our minds every day by media and advertising -and of course, all of this has its influences as well so it gets to you one way or another. like i said before, there is a school of thought that suggests that there is no such thing as true creativity at all, but it is all a rearrangement of things you have already seen. i'd like to believe that we are true renegades of art and we have the potential to move forward the boundaries of possibility in a unique way. i believe hiphop overall can embody this idea of trancending possibility, i have speculated for years about this- it seems to me that there is a measure of eastern philosophy here, perhaps instilled into hiphop via kung fu films in the 70's? look at bboying. although the formal world of movement presumably rejects it, it seems to me that these young guys have completely smashed through the barrier of possibility with moves like air flares. i'm sure gymnasts would have said it was an impossibility... the disregard for rules, the need to excel... thats where this comes from. like when scientists calculated that it was impossible for the human body to run a mile in under a minute. it must start in the mind, that is the root of all possibility, and i have high hopes for us all. the culture is still very young and i constantly daydream about what it is going to become both stylistically and socialogically. graffiti is growing up! and no one can stop it. traditionalism will always be there, i have no doubt and fear about that. we need both traditionalism and innovation to continue our growth. swo we all have our parts to play. we are like an army, our goal is to invade all realms of location and possibility. but i agree with you. while i see graff that turns me inside out (i was just looking at the revok thread and i thought a lot of it was amazing), the truth is that i have to agree with you re- mags. i just find a lot of graff disappointing at the moment. its not that i don't think its good or that i can't appreciate the dedication or effort. its just that i've seen so much of it before. i enjoy seeing something new to me, a new train of thought. there was more originality a while back for me. look at some of slick's old stuff or even further back to the original NY work. how can it be that so much of that stuff is still better than modern pieces? i also do think though that this may well be a pretty constant phenomenon in creativity in general. studies have indicated that 10% dominant characters are usual in animal populations. to really break the mould you have to be ready to go out on a limb and stand alone and have the balls to push it through. i saw a clip of Quik on TV early 90's. he commented that he was glad when graffiti really ceased to proliferate on the NY subway in 89 because he felt it had become stale and formulaic compared to the genesis years. i think maybe the problem is because its so hard to get an "education" in graff. we construct these barriers around our culture. i'm the last one to suggest we give it out offhand- we already have some illustrators in the UK that as far as i can see have capitalised on some general image of graff without actually being involved or paying any dues. or maybe its due to this idea of STYLE. that the ultimate goal is to have a recognisable style that is known as yours. i think that most of us have the potential to achieve that, if you do enough and persevere, but i see so many writers who are still basically doing the same piece they were doing 5 years ago. power to them if thats what makes them happy but it just wouldnt be enough for me. its not really boredom with me. its just that all day long my head is full of ideas. sometimes its so bad i feel i'm going mad! often i cant sleep at night because of it. seak said something to me that stuck: "You have many ideas. You have so many ideas i doubt you will do even a small amount of them in your lifetime". that was dark. i thought a lot about that. it scared me. so i realised that i had to change my thinking a bit- i still have a large part of me that believes its meaningless unless its been painted on a wall or transit or whatever. whereas, of course, in an artistic sense a drawing is also valuable. i'm writing long posts here, which might seem pointless to some, but i also consider now that writing is as important as Writing, in that the dialogue surrounding our culture can be a useful vehicle for ideas. i'm trying to find ways to close the gap between these two things i do. when my site goes online you'll see what i mean... i also came to the conclusion that this idea of huge paintings is not always good. skores attitude is mostly, "Why paint one big wall when i could do 5 other pieces in the same timescale?". although he has since done some biggies, i saw his point. the point is, does size and complexity necessarily equate to quality? of course not. it would be bizarre for someone to walk into an art gallery and say the best painting was the biggest one. i really enjoy minimalist stuff too. art can be as much about what you don't do as what you do... your interesting use of space is a good case in point ;) so if i can get the idea over with a small painting then i will do that. i'm not ruling out big things though... check the new www.banksy.co.uk for a good example of minimal visual communication. as far as i am aware over here in the UK there isn't a great deal of mentoring going on. i guess this is the answer? And yes, you Brits are very clean painters but your attitude does stink. Well, at least on Only Fools and Horses it seems that way. i meant clean and sweet smelling! and we're not all Del Boys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 "hehe..it's like.."LIVE internet chat with SHOK one"... lol! "So, tell me about your childhood..." all us lower class Brits have no teeth. its because they don't feed us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 "props the hard way" its funny the way that certain pieces seem to strike a chord with people. that piece is one that people really always mention to me :) but its strange that it doesn't always coincide with what you yourself like... i did other things around that time that i like better personally. what was it about that one that people liked? *gets notebook out for improvements to style* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peyotecactus Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 yes very good,i havent seen a shok1 peice in a while.hes doin some dope shit.the ones with seak,mmmmmmmmmm good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Originally posted by Shok1-SINSTARS England What interests me in graff is the thought that we have created things that are not present anywhere else in human creativity... the idea that some kid somewhere in some place in the world might have an idea that nobody in the history of mankind has ever had. is this possible? it seems to me that it is... because our context is unique. but the problem is also that we sit with a huge weight and temptation of previous work behind us. I think part of the problem also is that peer pressure is a bitch. I've met kids who had incredible ideas in their blackbooks but still continued to paint acceptable pieces. Because they weren't sure how their original thoughts would be seen by the local writing public. I think that it's a matter of acceptance and the willingness to make that jump. Believe me, it's a jump. Standing on your own for years with no one to paint with is lonely. Even painting with friends who have a more traditional style can be lonely. You don't fit and no effort is going to make your work... work. But staying true to your ideas pays off. It's paid off for several writers. Biggest example ---> Twist. i'd like to believe that we are true renegades of art and we have the potential to move forward the boundaries of possibility in a unique way. Renegades, yes! This is something Phase2 and I used to talk about all the time. Style Renegades. If you think about it... it makes a lot of sense. the point is, does size and complexity necessarily equate to quality? of course not. No. Rough sent me some photos of some work he and another writer had done. His name escapes me at the moment (I think it started with a T) but he did somereally cool shapes and images that seemed altogether void of anything to do with writing. But in context with what Remi had done it worked relly well. And these walls that were painted were very small. as far as i am aware over here in the UK there isn't a great deal of mentoring going on. i guess this is the answer? I'll be the first to say that yes, mentoring is the answer. Though I'll also be the first to pass the job up. (I think if I took on a student five or six years ago it would have been different) The problem seems to be that kids are learning from magazines and the web. Looking at photos and getting their ideas there. Instead of taking the time to teach themselves their own lines. their own show of movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkaline Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 "i'm writing long posts here, which might seem pointless to some, but i also consider now that writing is as important as Writing, in that the dialogue surrounding our culture can be a useful vehicle for ideas." Thank you, Shok. In this thread you have put into words what a lot of writers can’t (or won’t). I commend you on your thought out and well-spoken posts. It is very nice to see intelligent dialogue between writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Alk: thanks. i think that there is already a lot of intelligent comment on 12oz already compared to what i see in many places. i feel like if i have a clearer idea of what i'm trying to do then i will paint more effectively but i don't pretend i have all the answers so i actively seek the conversation. to me the time spent is an investment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Also i'm sick of seeing outsiders talking out of their arses about what we do and projecting it all wrong. a while back an extreme sports mag ran a load of my pics they got from someone without telling me. they got this complete idiot to write an opinion piece which was about as far opposite to my point of view as it could get- a load of sensational crap about how there is a war going on between bombers and piecers and how we want to kill each other. whereas, at least in my circles, even people that are only doing legals have a background in bombing anyway. i hate this stupid divide. its all about pushing on all fronts, "reaching all areas by any means necessary" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shok1-SINSTARS England Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Jokes: "I think part of the problem also is that peer pressure is a bitch." of course. but thats the test - do you have enough belief in what you want to do to push through that? i feel like people are waking up to that though. there are so many people writing now - what can you doing to stand out? natural selection... as i understand it though there has always been multiple routes to success: volume or quality. i enjoyed that thread elsewhere on here about the "fire extinguisher" hits... that people can still innovate within bombing techniques is refreshing to me. volume is obviously important but now i prefer an alternative route to the brute force volume tactics of my youth. i mean, i'm 31 now, i got other agendas apart from anything else! "Style Renegades" yes! rebel against everything! rebel against the rebellion! stand alone! of course its probably going to be question of degree... unless you grew up on another planet and live on a mountain drawing with your own shit or something. theres always connections. but its good to feel that your confronting something, breaking something down... "The problem seems to be that kids are learning from magazines and the web." yes. but i don't think that there's anything intrinsically wrong with that. its just that its all surface. it seems to me that there was an existing graff mag format set years ago and now most follow it. whats odd to me is that the original IGT was full of wild comment and background but it was rarely duplicated. but then phase is an individual, there's no doubt. so who's to blame that so many of the next gen just adopt format? they see what works but not why. and you need the why to form your own gameplan i think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.