Fist 666 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 you're right--there are more profitable targets than iraq i think we thought it'd be far easier to manipulate than it has proven to be. iraq's oil is (i think) 6th most plentiful. thats enough for us for now. in time (100 years, 1000 years, 10,000 years... fuck) iraq will be a hell of a staging ground for future operations. i don't think democracy has a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Listen man, I am an atheist myself. The majority of stuff that you've said here I agree with, but I just don't see how religion and culture has nothing to do with this at all, when it has for hundreds of years. thats one point i was trying to make: the wars certainly appear to be religion driven. clashes between muslims/jews/christians have been going on since they'e existed together. the wars aren't launched by the small people. they never have been. peasants don't draw arms against their neighbors of different faith because they are of a different faith. they draw arms because their church--their brothers--told them to. sure, they're turned into religious pursuits but the heart of the war is profit and gain--resources, ports, key cities, etc. there are cultural clashes in the middle east, derived from power struggle--the kinship between people of the same religion is incredibly strong--and this is used to their governments advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 As athiest there is something you must all understand. Our concept of belief is only superficially different from any other faith based epistemology. We believe in tiny little particles that nothing can see, but act in this or that way. I am not defending religion, merely trying to make sure we speak clearly about our own beliefs. but if you are a realist about science, I feel as bad for you as I do about as I do for any strongly religious person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 what i said may not be particularly relevant, but reading through the last few posts while drunk made me think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 yeah. our faith in the mighty quark. science is a creation of man just as god. i like science because it is to a degree tangible, measurable, and identifiable. man will always fall short and never know everything--we aren't a perfect being. but we can dig deeper and deeper and try. i'm atheist for reasons as much philosophical as scientific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 oh yeah, thats why I still appreciate science as well. just makin sure we all on the same page, claiming the we are atheists and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 yeah. i know people who have replaced religion with science. and are as vehement and even preachy about it. i relate more to them, but i don't like it. i don't think atheism in itself means freedom or release from the chains of dogma. i think it should... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 thats the thing though, there is no escape from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 aaaaaaaaaaahahaha. hold on, aaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahaha. fuck you dude. you defend your language so heartily as the base of your faith, then throw jihad into this complete bullshit. you can't selectively recognize the true meanings of words. this is the god thread, not a war thread, but if you've somehow translated our rape of the middle east into "a jihad" on islam or the people you're way the fuck more off kilter than i ever dreamed. we're there for assets, resources, ultimately monetary interests are being watched. the war machine would have to recognize the fact that the people we're stepping on exist for you to say that this is against them. this atrocious was has nothing to do with religion. well maybe the only true religion. money. Ok, so you don't consider soldiers killing muslims/ burning qurans/ mocking islam, blowing up mosques, houses/ imprisoning whoever they want/occupation of muslim lands/forcing democracy and western values and so many more crimes that I could pull up if I did a google search a jihad against Islam and it's people? OK, sure they're there for assets, resources, ultimately monetary interests but at the expense of what? The blood safety, security, property of the muslim people in every country America is involved in right now. Do you support this war? If you don't then, sit down and shut up, If you do, then you already shut yourself up because nobody is hearing you. Let me repeat what I said...WHAT AMERICA IS DOING IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS A WAR AGAINST ISLAM. Whether it's directly, indirectly, covert or on accident doesn't matter. When you take somebody's right away from them it doesn't matter whether you meant it or not (which I believe they INTEND to destroy Islam so they can protect their greedy interests). I'm not naive enough to believe that they (the us govt.) wants to wipe out Islam totally, but they want to change the beliefs of the muslims to accommodate their agenda which, sadly, they've succeeded at to a degree, that's why half of the muslim world is asleep. Some are fighting back, but not all of the ones fighting are achieving any good because for one the muslim armies are weak against the "superpower" Even though Allah is the real superpower. And not to mention a lot of the muslims are not fighting properly according to Islam's rules of engagement (like taking innocent hostages and killing them, blowing up civilians etc.) And the muslims (overseas) in general are following the lead of the immoral nations because it's a defeat complex. And Allah won't give victory to people who commit sins and don't strive purely for his sake. A lot of the people fighting aren't fighting purely for the sake of Allah, they're fighting for money (paid mercenaries) fighting for land, fighting for politics, power. I can't expect the muslims to be successful if their intention isn't pure.Fist 666 You can't deny that the west is waging war against Islam, man...Democracy is an ideology... Islam is an ideology...they're over there spreading DEMOCRACY, why? yeah, to protect their billion dollar war investment, but also to wipe out Islam with their ideology because their ideology (and hence agenda) can't flourish in a true Islamic state, but the victory will be with Islam for sure, Allah promised that because while the west's motivation is "freedom" and "democracy" which actually translates into destruction and greed, Our motivation is something much better than that. And while both civilizations can co-exist peacefully, It can never happen while the rights, lives, property and honor is being stripped away from one of them because we'll fight those who fight us until there is nobody left or until our enemies retreat......... Time will tell. oh, and next time have more respect when addressing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 g "lets throw rocks at this lady who uncovered her head until she dies because thats what the great spirit would want us to do" crowd. . nowhere in the quran or in the authentic sayings of the prophet Muhammad does it ever say to stone a woman to death for uncovering her head, don't exaggerate/invent things so your posts are more interesting and exciting. First off, let's get it straight...stoning is for the adulterer (male or female) who is married, not for a lady who uncovers her hair. It can only be established when there is 4 witnesses (like that would ever happen) It's in the bible and the torah to stone adulterers, so let's not just bring this down on muslims because the current "let's bust a nut in anybody and everybody, and not support our kids so they grow up to be carjacking crackheads" crowd thinks stoning an adulter is barbaric. If you want to think the current popular mentality/ideology in American society is where it's at, then more power to you. I'm not giving a veto to the corruption that goes on in muslim countries because they're plenty of it, but read history and see what good the Islamic empire brought to the world while europe was still in the dark ages. http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=27549 (watch that video to see the scientific discoveries and the things that Muslims invented to make your life better)[url=http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=27549][/url] I'm Idealistic and hopeful that people can do the right thing. Again, stoning an adulterer is not something that should be done daily. If society were the way it should be it would never happen or very rarely. During the time of the prophet Muhammad it happened very rarely but the overwhelming benefit this punishment had on the psyche of the people was tremendous. Coupled with faith, a punishment like that protects people from becoming promiscuous and destroying society. I have a daughter, man...and I see they way you people treat women (just look in crossfire) And you have the nerve to say we're unfair to women. Women are like jewels to us....preserved pearls that should be treated kindly and justly, just because you see women under the veil, don't think they're oppressed. http://www.jannah.org/sisters/hijbene.html (hear it from the muslim women instead of cnn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 you're right--there are more profitable targets than iraq i think we thought it'd be far easier to manipulate than it has proven to be. iraq's oil is (i think) 6th most plentiful. thats enough for us for now. in time (100 years, 1000 years, 10,000 years... fuck) iraq will be a hell of a staging ground for future operations. i don't think democracy has a chance. whatever happened to WMD's/ Freedom/ taking out a barbaric tyrant as the reason for going into Iraq? HAHA...people are just talking openly now about it being for oil.......damn, dude... A few years back whoever said we were going to Iraq for oil was a conspiracy theorist.....it's funny how something starts as a conspiracy then becomes like common on the tongues of people as if the govt. was never denying it. Now it's just open, we're killing the sand niggers for they're oil, bro...no big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 stoning anyone is not something that should be done ever. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 sorry dawood. i do need to work on my civility--it just pissed me off that on the previous page you were arguing the essential sovereignty of arabic, and then this page you're throwing jihad around as freely as the US government throws around "democracy." i've got to head to class now, i've got a lot to say. should we start another war thread? the role of religion in wars? or just maintain here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Fixed. I don't know, not stoning women to death at all......thats a pretty radical concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Women are like jewels to us....preserved pearls that should be treated kindly and justly Yes, delicate jewels that must be completely covered in the ninja outfit at all times, walk 15 feet behind you whenever out on the town, not leave the house without a male family member, not be allowed to drive read or write, and be beaten or murdered if they break any of these rules. Ok, so you don't consider soldiers killing muslims/ burning qurans/ mocking islam, blowing up mosques, houses/ imprisoning whoever they want/occupation of muslim lands/forcing democracy and western values and so many more crimes that I could pull up if I did a google search a jihad against Islam and it's people? I know you guys get a hard on talking about the infidel occupiers, but seriously the ONLY people in iraq doing all of the things you listed above are other muslims. You can say all of these stories (like the mentally handicap suicide bombers) are lies and part of some sort of conspiracy to smear islam, or its really americans behind it all.... but I understand why you need to believe it/block out all logical reasoning that points in a different direction, and I'm not going to change your mind so feel free to stick with whatever turns you on. And the CNN story about women being murdered for wearing makeup or not wearing a head scarf IS NOT a lie or exaggerations at all, feel free to take a trip to basra and find out yourself. A more successful argument you could have made would be the people murdering women for no fucking reason aren't true muslims, and that the many islamic countries that follow the same practices are also not really following the koran or whatever. But I guess blindly denying everything works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 It's in the bible and the torah to stone adulterers, so let's not just bring this down on muslims because the current "let's bust a nut in anybody and everybody, and not support our kids so they grow up to be carjacking crackheads" crowd thinks stoning an adulter is barbaric. If you want to think the current popular mentality/ideology in American society is where it's at, then more power to you. I'm not giving a veto to the corruption that goes on in muslim countries because they're plenty of it, but read history and see what good the Islamic empire brought to the world while europe was still in the dark ages. Well in all fairness the bible has a ton of crazy shit in it...pretty much the whole old testament is "kill every man women and child in the city that angered me", and the whole new testament is hocus pocus magical bullshit. But like I have said before, we refer to that period of history as "the dark ages" for a good reason and we don't base current western society off the parts of the bible that tell us to brutally kill people for frivolous reasons. You have a good point about the various advances in medicine, science, math that the islamic world came up with while the europeans were all living in dirt huts. But what ended this period wasn't foreign interference, it was a rigid interpretation of sharia that took hold and is still there today. hey're over there spreading DEMOCRACY, why? yeah, to protect their billion dollar war investment, but also to wipe out Islam with their ideology because their ideology (and hence agenda) can't flourish in a true Islamic state Its pretty sad but I agree with you on that, democracy just isnt for everyone. Some people seem to be better off under oppressive dictators, and in the case of iraq they probably should have stayed under Saddam. That is how most islamic countries function, under an oppressive dictatorship...syria, saudi arabia, iran, pakistan, etc. Look, we agree on something!!!! BEST FRIENDS 4 LYFE!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 Yes, delicate jewels that must be completely covered in the ninja outfit at all times, walk 15 feet behind you whenever out on the town, not leave the house without a male family member, not be allowed to drive read or write, and be beaten or murdered if they break any of these rules. Every last thing you mentioned here is not true. Ask me how I know, because I'm a muslim. I live it. Women don't have to cover themselves at all times, only when around non relative men (for modesty purposes). Walk 15 feet behind??? I swear you live in a trailer park somewhere. My wife just got back from doing the shopping for the house by herself, SHE MUST ME STONED WITH CANS OF RAVIOLI!!! And of course I made her walk to the grocery store because she can't drive either...(that's a saudi thing, nothing to do with Islam) And yeah, since we've become muslim I made her unlearn how to read and write, because every muslim wants an ignoramus raising his kids. Why don't you go experience life outside of your tiny bubbles and realize that not everything you see on TV is true or can be attributed to Islam. With that line of logic, Every time some kid opens fire in a school or college, It should be blamed on christianity. And prostitution, yep, it's christian. It happens in America and america is a christian country , right? I know you guys get a hard on talking about the infidel occupiers, but seriously the ONLY people in iraq doing all of the things you listed above are other muslims. You can say all of these stories (like the mentally handicap suicide bombers) are lies and part of some sort of conspiracy to smear islam, or its really americans behind it all.... but I understand why you need to believe it/block out all logical reasoning that points in a different direction, and I'm not going to change your mind so feel free to stick with whatever turns you on. And the CNN story about women being murdered for wearing makeup or not wearing a head scarf IS NOT a lie or exaggerations at all, feel free to take a trip to basra and find out yourself. A more successful argument you could have made would be the people murdering women for no fucking reason aren't true muslims, and that the many islamic countries that follow the same practices are also not really following the koran or whatever. But I guess blindly denying everything works for you. When did I blindly deny that muslims do wrong? Anyone who actually reads my posts and who possesses a grain of intelligence to process what I say knows that I don't just deny things blindly. If there's proof of what you say I have no problem accepting the truth. I believe in sticking to the truth even if it is against my own self because nobody is perfect and nobody on the face of the earth has ever been right every time. What I've said continuously is that the west is on a smear campaign to attribute EVERY thing that happens to the religion of Islam. That's why people think islam is such an evil religion now, because (A. stupid muslims do dumb shit all the time because they are provoked and (B. opportunist Jewish/us govt. agenda media outlets use every opportunity to shine a negative light on Islam. I'm not denying that muslims do ridiculous things regularly, that's like a catholic denying some of the priests are pedophiles but don't act like Islam is the root of the problem because you wont find these things in my religion. If you claim that something is a part of my religion, i.e. murdering a woman for not wearing a head scarf, walking 15 ft. behind the man, not being allowed to read or write... then bring me proofs from the authentic sources of Islam, not a cnn article or a youtube video, I don't accept that as a proof for my religion. Sure, muslims do things that are reprehensible, but so do non muslims, so do we now blame everything anyone living in america does on Christianity or Democracy even? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist 666 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 you know because you're a muslim and i know because i grew up in pakistan... most of what stereo said was out of line. extreme exaggerations. but all of those stereotypes are based on something. i'll get back to the rest of my post later tonight maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereotype V.0002 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 big fucking post (that's a saudi thing, nothing to do with Islam) This is exactly my point, those things and others similar to it are either social norms or a law in some countries, and THEY say it is based off of the koran or hadith. The same thing goes for muslims getting their jihad on against the americans via blowing up iraqis, they will try to justify it using their religion. You say they are doing things that aren’t found in your religion and its not my place to challenge you there. My point is that there are more people, who identify themselves as being muslim, that live in a backwards society. If you think I am trying to insult you or islam by calling it “backwards” you are wrong, I think you would agree some of the rules are all sorts of fucked up in the house of saud or iran (unless you consider them heretics) or afghanistan. I prefer the type of Islam you listed above when refuting things I said because it seems much more liberal than what they have in a lot of the middle east. With that line of logic, Every time some kid opens fire in a school or college, It should be blamed on christianity. And prostitution, yep, it's christian. It happens in America and america is a christian country , right? I am not saying these things are strictly related to islam, plenty of non muslim countries have capital punishment in some form, and the video of yazidi kurds stoning a girl in the town square for converting to islam that was all over the media is another example. its the society of honor killings and that type of shit that I find disgusting and backwards, not the religion or ethnicity or any of that. If you want to blame prostitution or shootings on democracy be my guess, a liberal society that gives people the freedom to make choices in their lives sort of enables these things to an extent. I don’t care what you attribute to christianity so be my guest. If you claim that something is a part of my religion, i.e. murdering a woman for not wearing a head scarf, walking 15 ft. behind the man, not being allowed to read or write... then bring me proofs from the authentic sources of Islam, not a cnn article or a youtube video, Its your religion as you said, so if you say it isn’t part of it then I will take your word for it, but the people who do the above things are using islam as their excuse. In the case of the women being murdered in basra, I think they are sadists hiding behind religion/trying to establish their dominance to get some of the oil money down there(i thought you were originally denying it was happening at all, not denying they are following Islamic law) Some “fundamentalists” aren’t strict followers when it doesn’t suit them, like khaled sheik mohammad being a fixture at a few strip clubs in the philippines. When did I blindly deny that muslims do wrong? This was about your quote - “Ok, so you don't consider soldiers killing muslims/ burning qurans/ mocking islam, blowing up mosques, houses/ imprisoning whoever they want/occupation of muslim lands/forcing democracy and western values and so many more crimes that I could pull up if I did a google search a jihad against Islam and it's people?” I said it in reference to blindly denying that groups like al qaeda are behind much of the violence in iraq, and not Americans. I know you are blindly denying it because you must be confronted with massive amounts of evidence proving what you wrote to be false. Trying to portray the US military in iraq like the russians tearing through berlin is ridiculous. Murders, suicide bombings, torturing (putting power drills through your elbows, not dumping water on your head), and attacks in general against iraqi civilians are being committed by al qaeda or various shiite factions. Especially right now, the US military is working with Iraqis (many who were in the sunni insurgency a year ago) against al qaeda and the militias that are still active. Anything I say to counter this notion that the amirikis are running around burning qurans raping women killing babies and arbitrarily shooting people, you will likely reject. I don’t know what “proof” you want me to give you, since anonymously over the internet about all I have to go with are media articles or videos from youtube, which apparently you think are part of a jew/American smear campaign or something. I don’t have any impact on what you think, so in turn I don’t really give a fuck, is what I'm driving at here. Why don't you go experience life outside of your tiny bubbles and realize that not everything you see on TV is true or can be attributed to Islam I am going to get right on that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 Of course groups like al qaeda are behind a lot of the violence in Iraq, but Al qaeda wouldn't be there if American troops weren't in Iraq. Not that I support Al qaeda because I don't agree with their methodology, and only Allah knows their condition for sure. I'm not blaming everything on America, I'm against injustice wherever it comes from whether from muslims or non muslims, but you have to agree that America has the most blood on their hands in this ordeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZello Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle... What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZello Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 I wasn't ignoring your first question Alex, sorry. I kept telling myself I was going to come back and google Obadiah Shoher. I wasn't familiar with him until now. Since you posted the link I have no more excuses , huh? I read a few articles but I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. He seems to have a lot of views that oppose zionism, but still he seems to support the state of Isreal. In honesty, this thread isn't really for this discussion. It's for talking about God for the most part. We veer off from time to time, but that's the general focus of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 oh yeah, thats why I still appreciate science as well. just makin sure we all on the same page, claiming the we are atheists and all. Is this an atheist roll call? Count me in. Although I seem to remember chalmers told me I wasn't really an atheist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 The only thing I believe in, is not believing in anything. I'm not a nihilist though (how's that for dubla negativo), I just don't hold on to anything so tightly that I believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYKUNT Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 the only way for man to truly experience their creator is by becoming the creator the only way for the creator to truly experience man is by becoming man...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 ^^ I knew it. You do suck. UGH. read people. it ain't that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 The only thing I believe in, is not believing in anything. I'm not a nihilist though (how's that for dubla negativo), I just don't hold on to anything so tightly that I believe it. Relativism and Nihilism are hard to seperate. Personally I think one may be a consequent of the other. Or in their order, the former is a product of the latter. To deny the validity of everything is to appreciate the truth of anything. Note, however, that relativity can be expressed in these two flavors, in the negative and in the positive. Either all things hold truth, or no things hold truth. It is when you can regularly see the constant presupposition of the one to the other that you have gotten anywhere with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 I think there may be more than two flavors. An additional flavor is, some things are truthful at one particular moment in time, while not later. Time is only one essential element that introduces ambiguity into the binary opposition that you have set up. Other elements could be truth that reveals itself only through context, or perhaps a belief that could not be fixated at any one time without altering that truth. Quantum truth! Not holding onto a belief tightly does not necessarily put one in a positive or negative camp, rather, simply a fluid and mutable camp. Rigidity could fit into this paradigm though, so try not to create a dichotomy between it and flexibility as my opposition. There is a koan that I remember that goes something like this: The abbot of a monastery is speaking to his students. He asks them, "Is form emptiness?" One of his students answers "Yes, thus the world is an illusion." The abbot promptly raps him with his cane on the nose , breaking his nose and sending a stream of blood squirting out of his face. "Was that an illusion?" the abbot asks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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