discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[Dawood]

 

Dawood- your a cool dude, but absolutely ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

ha, ha, why am I rediculous?

[r3ader]

Dawood, good looking out with the noble Quran link, but it's not pulling up on my side. Is that for sure the correct link? If i can get a free online viewable Quran i'll start reading it now.

 

About Judaism and conversion - what you say is true, but up until modern times, conversion to Judaism for Gentiles (all of us who weren't born Jews) was quite simple: you had to be/get circumsized, you had to keep the holidays and keep the Law, observe the sabbath and you had to give your tithings to the Temple. After WW I I and the persecution Jews suffered (possibly before this time, but from here on for sure for sure) to "tighten the ranks" and keep out people who weren't really serious, conversion was not frowned upon but not encouraged either because living as a Jew, as MAR had said earlier, much like living as an observant Muslim, is not easy. I'm taking the long road to conversion because I'm not very good about following the Law and am trying to get better about it before trying to convince a rabbi to help me convert. Anyway, you may not be accepted as a Jew by some orthodox people, but most people will appreciate it even if they don't accept it, and the important part is that your children will be accepted. That's the key part to me - that my kids be accepted by the community as Jews. I could care less what people think of me personally, to be quite honest.

[Dawood]

http://www.thenoblequran.com should come right up , it's working for me, anyway, google it.

[r3ader]

Word, it's working for me now. will check it out, thanks!

[DoneTWS]

Dawood are you a converted muslim, or were you born muslim? Just curious.

[DoneTWS]

God doesn't exist. When you die, it will feel the same way it felt before you were born. Close thread.

 

This is the most logical conclusion, but try getting others to realize that. It would be almost as hard as convincing you or me that there is a God. I say almost as hard because I believe that deep down humans are logical creatures, and most people deep down know that their religion is bullshit, or at least suspect it might be. I think some people need religion to convince themselves they are special and that they are going somewhere after death, and they are part of some master plan or some shit.

[Module X]

I believe that deep down humans are logical creatures, and most people deep down know that their religion is bullshit, or at least suspect it might be.

 

That's funny, because most profoundly religious people feel "deep down" that their religion has a very solid basis. Religion is something that transcends logic, you have to realize that. I'm not going to reiterate my views again, but I would argue that even very strict logical argument leads ultimately to religion, in a loose sense of the word. This was the irony of Plato, he rejected all the Greek gods in favor of logic, but ended up inventing his own sort of 'god' (I'm referring here to his idea of "truth" or "the good"). It's not a very complicated idea. All you have to do is throw away your bias against religion and understand it for what it is.

[r3ader]

So what is it, Mr. Chalmers?

and give me something more creative than "a way to control the masses".

 

I love the way you two (Done and SNC) are soooo confident! I'm always open, I don't know everything and I wouldn't claim i'm always right - I could be totally wrong with my beliefs! But it's almost like atheism requires some beyond egotistical confidence in one's own mental superiority.

[Module X]

 

Chill. I think I've pretty much explained my views in the past few pages on here, and I'm not going to reiterate them to someone who decided to disagree with me before joining the discussion. When did I ever say I'm an atheist? I actually said a few pages back that I don't really call myself an atheist. What is your definition of an atheist anyway? How can you call me overconfident when I've repeated over and over the idea that logic inevitably reaches a point of failure, meaning that I can't explain everything? Please, if you feel like going on another tirade, go back and read what I've been writing first! There's not that much, and it only goes back 4 or 5 pages. There is no specific knowledge I claim to be privy to that somehow makes me wiser than anyone else.

 

In the case of Done, I was actually defending religion. In fact, if you were paying attention, you would have noticed that what I was saying by understanding religion for "what it is" implies that it's something much more meaningful than "a way to control the masses." I was and have been saying that there are valuable things to be learned from religion, and NOT just in a purely sociological or historical sense.

 

I said it before, stop trying to argue with me until you read what I've been writing.

 

I don't even know why I post in here.

[Dawood]

Dawood are you a converted muslim, or were you born muslim? Just curious.

 

I refer to myself as a "revert" not a convert because when Allah created the heavens and earth, he also created every soul that was to ever exist and made it bear witness in front of him that none has the right to be worshipped but him. This is called the "fitrah" or the natural inclination toward your creator that all humans have , but some suppress due to various reasons. When I accepted Islam it was as if everything I beleived was confirmed all over again and brought together in one perfect package, It was so simple and obvious, I was amazed that I went 20 some odd years in my life without Islam.

 

And the nature of certainty is that there is no doubt or suspicioun, doubts and suspicions come from the whisperings of shaitan (the devil). The more your heart remembers God, the whisperings and doubts that the devil throws at you are repelled. It's like armor, the fortress of the beleiver is remembering God.

[the.crooked]

 

Chill. I think I've pretty much explained my views in the past few pages on here, and I'm not going to reiterate them to someone who decided to disagree with me before joining the discussion. When did I ever say I'm an atheist? I actually said a few pages back that I don't really call myself an atheist. What is your definition of an atheist anyway? How can you call me overconfident when I've repeated over and over the idea that logic inevitably reaches a point of failure, meaning that I can't explain everything? Please, if you feel like going on another tirade, go back and read what I've been writing first! There's not that much, and it only goes back 4 or 5 pages. There is no specific knowledge I claim to be privy to that somehow makes me wiser than anyone else.

 

In the case of Done, I was actually defending religion. In fact, if you were paying attention, you would have noticed that what I was saying by understanding religion for "what it is" implies that it's something much more meaningful than "a way to control the masses." I was and have been saying that there are valuable things to be learned from religion, and NOT just in a purely sociological or historical sense.

 

I said it before, stop trying to argue with me until you read what I've been writing.

 

I don't even know why I post in here.

 

 

 

you post, because even in light of our own inability to find objective truth, at least we can try to construct it by agreeing about the very point of its ineffability.

 

thus, no matter what, we will always do that which we have. put our thoughts out for others to view.

[DoneTWS]

I refer to myself as a "revert" not a convert because when Allah created the heavens and earth, he also created every soul that was to ever exist and made it bear witness in front of him that none has the right to be worshipped but him. This is called the "fitrah" or the natural inclination toward your creator that all humans have , but some suppress due to various reasons. When I accepted Islam it was as if everything I beleived was confirmed all over again and brought together in one perfect package, It was so simple and obvious, I was amazed that I went 20 some odd years in my life without Islam.

 

And the nature of certainty is that there is no doubt or suspicioun, doubts and suspicions come from the whisperings of shaitan (the devil). The more your heart remembers God, the whisperings and doubts that the devil throws at you are repelled. It's like armor, the fortress of the beleiver is remembering God.

 

I see. Are you of middle eastern decent? Do you find any animosity from those muslims who have been attending to the religion their whole lives? Or do they pretty much treat you like one of their own? I feel that if some white person were to convert and go to an arab dominated mosque they would be left out.

[Dawood]

Ha, Ha, I am some white person. (Italian actually) And I was living in the middle east in 100% arab dominated mosques and people made me feel like I was the most important human in the room. It kind of made me feel uncomfortable, but i understood why they were acting the way they did. They were just extremely happy to see americans and westerners in general becoming muslim since all they see is that America is sending bombs and missles at them so when they see an American muslim it makes them extremely happy and the reaction was like this almost with everyone there.

 

As far as in America, theres not really a muslim revert/born in a muslim family divide, there's more of an economic divide that seperates people. Everyone from all walks of life and nationalities pray at the mosques in America, but money is a divisive thing and it gets between even the best of nations. As far as muslims treating as one of their own when you accept Islam, that's rarely a problem, Muslims are some of the most hospitible people on the planet.

[Module X]

you post, because even in light of our own inability to find objective truth, at least we can try to construct it by agreeing about the very point of its ineffability.

 

thus, no matter what, we will always do that which we have. put our thoughts out for others to view.

 

Yeah, I guess it's just frustrating when someone jumps in and starts arguing their views with some preconceived bias about what we're trying to talk about, without understanding it in the first place. Also, I was considering what you were saying about capitalizing the word "god" and I think I agree. I've been capitalizing it without really thinking about it, just because that's how I found it written in prayer books as a kid. But it does seem to refer too much to the Judeo-Christian God rather than the more general concept of god that we seem to share. I think I'll drop the capital G.

 

On another note, I'm curious to know what people in here think about psychedelics as a religious/spiritual tool. I have to admit that my first experience with ego loss was very formative. I think ego loss provides a valuable perspective in considering fundamental philosophical questions, for the obvious reason that it removes the inhibiting structure of "self." A lot of religious dogma seems to be formed around the idea of becoming "closer" to god, and I think a dose of psychedelic drugs in the right setting and the right frame of mind can provide a similar sort of experience to, say, asceticism or deep meditation.

[the.crooked]

go druggles.

 

i don't support the use of them alone as a means to introspective revelation. I think they can be helpful but only in so much as they will ellucidate what you are already predisposed to confront.

 

if i eat shrooms i have a very intense time discerning mind body interaction cus its something i think about usually. more so questioning the actual interpretation of sensation as neutral, pain, or pleasure. the three become blurry and at times they indescriminatory nature of them is annoying.

 

but i think they are very informative in general. if you can get yourself through a trip, there is a lot else that you can deal with in life. few things are harder to go into and come back out of then a complete loss of reality.

[Dawood]

you don't really trip with shrooms. Shrooms were always mellow and enjoyahle while acid was intense and had the ability to take you off the deep end. I still to this day had a few trips that i'm not sure were bad or not. I don't know what determines a bad trip. Anyway, drugs don't bring you closer to god, they just bring you away from reality and cook your brain stem

[Module X]

The main aspect of mushrooms that I think is relevant is the ego loss experienced with high doses. By this I mean the total loss of any sense of self. It seems like the focus of a lot of prayer and meditation is to clear the mind of egotistical concerns; things like eating and drinking, sex, money, what you're going to do tomorrow, pretty much anything your conscious mind concerns itself with regarding normal day-to-day survival. In certain cases I think hallucinogens eliminate this. You are no longer "I," you become "that" in the same sense you might refer to a tree, a car, a bird, or the sky. You completely lose any conception of yourself as an entity separate from anything else. You hear people talk about the profound "oneness" they experience on psychedelics and, while I don't necessarily buy into a lot of the stuff that surrounds psychedelic culture, I think it's a profound idea that comes from a profoundly religious experience. I think if one approaches this experience properly, one can learn a lot from it. The first time I ate mushrooms I was 14 and I took more than I should have, but I experienced this without any expectation of it at all. I thought I was going to get really high and see crazy stuff that wasn't there, but the experience ended up being surprisingly profound. I have since found many parallels to it in religion and literature.

 

Dawood, in saying that you are taken away from "reality" I think you are unintentionally imposing some kind of arbitrary restriction on the term "reality." What if I were to suggest that the psychedelic high brings you closer to god in that it allows you to experience a new aspect of reality, giving you an expanded perspective on god's creation.

[Dawood]

If you said that the psychedelic high brings you closer to god in that it allows you to experience a new aspect of reality, giving you an expanded perspective on god's creation.

I would say that even though you may perceive this perspective as being an expanded one simply because it's a new dimension to ponder that gives you a wider outlook on the human experience. But, with that I would still say that it doesn't bring one closer to god only because what brings us closer to god is a simple system of worship, good deeds and abstinence from bad deeds that any human, be they male, female, old or young can embark upon. The many prophets of God (Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc etc) throughout the generations have clearly outlined what brings us closer to God and hallucenagens are not part of the program.

But, i've done shrooms before so, I see where you get the idea from, it's just that when it comes to worshipping God, there is a way to worship God that was revealed and taught, unlike some people who think they can worship God by drinking rattlesnake blood and falling out unconscious on the floor.

[Dawood]

I'd also like to add that to me worship is not some super mystified trance like event that sends a person into a blissful whirling rapture becoming at one with the creator.

 

No, actually, to me worship can be something as simple as smiling at someone or eating, taking a shower or brushing my teeth. It all depends on the intention behind this action that determines whether it's worship or not. If I do something nice for my wife because I want some sex later, then I did that action for booty and that's that, if I do something nice for my wife because I remembered that God said that you should be kind to your wife and i thought God would be happy with that, then it now becomes worship and that is how you worship God in you day to day, now I know that's not the type of worship you were eluding to I.E. (prayer) but I was just saying...

[Module X]

what brings us closer to god is a simple system of worship, good deeds and abstinence from bad deeds

 

What are good deeds? What are bad deeds?

[Dawood]

good deeds are anything that Allah and his messenger say is good and bad deeds are anything that Allah and his messenger say are bad. I'm sure you'd agree.

[Dawood]

 

a talk from a 5 year old to athiests.

[ohnoone]

wow if that translation is accurate thats quite an articulate five year old.

 

hallucinagens are a part of religious experience in many ancient cultures, i realize that perhaps not in islam. but its quite accurate to equate the two in many parts of the world throughout history. and my college years. wakka wakka.

[Dawood]

it is accurate. Kids are amazing and can accomplish amazing things with the right guidance and enviroment.

[DoneTWS]

 

a talk from a 5 year old to athiests.

 

That kids friggn annoying and creepy at the same time.

[Dawood]

Done, You come off as a very closed minded person to me. You seem to know nothing about other cultures other than your own and you rarely have anything positive to say. You should go experience life outside of your tiny bubble first , then come back and post in religious/political forums. As a matter of fact, if you don't like religion, then why do you hang around religious discussions? Go to channel zero and find a few bobbleheads to hang out with , there, your comments are not appreciated.

[BESK101]

I'm not religous. But it's hard not to find religion fascinating simply for the impact it has had on our world throughout history. As for the subject of God, I think the Bahá'í are right on the money:

 

"The Bahá'í Concept of God-

 

The Bahá'í belief in one God means that the universe and all creatures and forces within it have been created by a single supernatural Being. This Being, Whom we call God, has absolute control over His creation (omnipotence) as well as perfect and complete knowledge of it (omniscience). Although we may have different concepts of God's nature, although we may pray to Him in different languages and call Him by different names--Allah or Yahweh, God or Brahma--nevertheless, we are speaking about the same unique Being.

 

According to Bahá'í teachings, God is so far beyond His creation that, throughout all eternity, human beings will never be able to formulate any clear image of Him or attain to anything but the most remote appreciation of His superior nature. Even if we say that God is the All-Powerful, the All-Loving, the Infinitely Just, such terms are derived from a very limited human experience of power, love, or justice. Indeed, our knowledge of anything is limited to our knowledge of those attributes or qualities perceptible to us."

http://info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-2.html

 

Or basically: We are Germs. World is Petri-dish. God is Scientist. Germs may develop ability to explore and understand Petri-dish. Not Scientist.

 

But the Bahá'í forbid drinking and premarital-sex so I passed...

[Issac Brock]

"Sit and think for a while and you'll realize that you still die.

If you're not thinking at all I'm not sure why you're alive."

[Module X]

Not much to say in here.

[the.crooked]

yup...