discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[Dawood]

ok, well, here's some more on Allaah, I don't know if you would consider this part of an ontological argument or not, but it's my latest addition to the thread nonetheless.

 

Ibnul – Qayyim said in ‘Madaarijus – saalikeen’ (1/41-):

The name ‘Allaah’ indicates all of the perfect names and lofty Attributes in the three ways of indication, since it indicates His Divinity which includes affirmation of all the characteristics of Divinity for Him, along with negation of their opposites for Him.

So the attributes of Divinity are the attributes of perfection, being free of any likeness with the creation, and free of any deficiency or imperfection…

 

From the Excellent Virtues of this name: (Allaah)

Ibn al-Qayyim ÑÍãå Çááå said:

‘….As for the particular virtues of the meaning (of this name), then the most knowledgeable of the creation Õáì Çááå Úáíå æ Óáã said: ‘I could not praise you enough (as you deserve), You are as you have praised yourself.’ (Muslim from the hadeeth of Aa’isha ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåÇ) So how could we enumerate the special virtues of the name of One who comprises every perfection, unrestrictedly, and every praise and commendation, and every laudation and exaltation, and all splendour and all perfection, and all glory and all beauty, and all good and eminence; and all generosity, excellence and goodness is for Him and from Him.

So this name is not mentioned upon a small amount except that it causes it to increase, nor in a state of fear except that it removes it, nor upon any misfortune except that it relieves it, nor in any state of anxiety and distress except that it brings relief, nor upon any state of difficulty except that it eases it. None who is weak resorts to it except that it brings strength to Him, nor anyone in a state of humiliation except that it brings honour to him, nor anyone in poverty except that he is enriched, nor anyone who feels estranged and uneasy except that it causes him to feel at ease; nor is it mentioned by one who has been overcome except that it brings aid and victory for him, nor by one in straightened circumstances except that that his difficulty is removed, nor by a fugitive except that he finds refuge. So it is the name through which distress is removed, through which the descent of blessings is sought, and through which supplications are answered. Through it slips are corrected, sins are warded away, and good deeds are brought closer.

It is the name with which the earth and the heavens were established, and with which the revealed books were sent down, and with which the messengers were sent. With it legislated laws were prescribed, through it the prescribed punishments were established, and with it Jihaad was prescribed. Through this name the creation became divided into the fortunate and the wretched. With it the true and tremendous Day is established, and with it the scales of justice are set up, the bridge laid down, and the Paradise and the Fire established. With it the Lord of all creation is worshipped and praised. For its right the messengers were sent, and it will be asked about in the grave, and for it there will be a resurrection. Dispute is regarding it, and judgement is to it, and alliance and enmity are for it. Through it those who know it and establish its rights will be the fortunate ones, and through it those who are ignorant of it and leave its right will be wretched ones. So it is the reason for creation and command, and through it they are established and confirmed, and to it they arrive at a conclusion. So the creation comes about through it, returns to it and exists because of it. So there is nothing in creation and no command, nor reward and no punishment except that it starts from it and ends with it. That is what brings it about and its reason:

(Translated meaning: O our Lord you have not created all of this without purpose. Free and far removed are you from that, so save us from the punishment of the Fire) (surah Aali-Imraan (3):191)

(Tayseerul-Azeezil-Hameed)

Compiled by Dawud abu Talha

[r3ader]

russel - read the Gospel of Thomas, it has a lot of interesting stuff like that through hidden sayings. But get a Gnostic Bible don't read a Christianized translation of the Gospel of Thomas.

 

the way i look at it is like this: so there's evolution, right? i agree with that. but emerging science shows the world truly was created in a very short time period, possibly 6 days, maybe 6 seconds.

 

one group of scientists won a nobel prize for their research recently:

http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=23699

 

another article:

http://newswire.ascribe.org/cgi-bin/behold.pl?ascribeid=20070314.095326&time=11%2029%20PDT&year=2007&public=0

 

so people assume that people are the end of evolution, the "smartest beings in existence". to me that's impossible: if that's true, why are things so screwed up? why can't i resist looking at porn on the odd occasion? because i'm not the perfect being/species.

 

now, you say "are we talking about aliens or G-d?" well to me they're one in the same: i don't think G-d looks like some white dude with long flowing hair and a sick hippy beard like some Christian painters believe, i believe He has an appearance but it's nothing we could imagine, or even comprehend if we saw it.

 

Now, if you believe in evolution, it's only natural to assume there's going to be further developments of life after us, or that may already exist. and it's natural to think that life existed before man, we can prove this with dinosaurs. so was there life before Earth? i'd have to think so, as a rational person who accepts evolution. Was there life before the solar system existed? I'd have to think so. and I think it eventually comes back to some solitary being (or beings, the concept of G-d having a wife is not unacceptable to me, although not G-d's equal, or multiple dieties, that i cannot believe) that set in motion these events.

 

i could be crazy but that's how i see it.

[r3ader]

Beautiful addition there Dawood. I particularly like the first part, about G-d's name (Allah in Arabic), truly magnificent. I love the concept of prayer, particularly prayer in regards to G-d's name, bringing peace and healing to those in need. Many Catholics follow a similar creed regarding the name "Jesus".

[Dawood]

the concept of G-d having a wife is not unacceptable to me, .

 

quote]

 

 

how could God have a wife? think about it rationally, How could the everliving omnipresent omnipitent being who will never die have a wife? What would he do with his wife? Would God have picnics in the park with his wife and kids? i mean, How could that be? Allah has no counterpart. Even if that concept of God having a wife were something possible, which , to me it is not befitting of God's majesty and highness. But, where does this concept come from? Where did God ever say that he had a wife in his scriptures?

Look at it this way R3ader, God is the creator, and everything else is his creation, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said "i believe He has an appearance but it's nothing we could imagine, or even comprehend if we saw it."

 

that seems like a more appropriate thing to say when we mention God because I beleive in not saying anything about Allah that he himself doesn't affirm for himself or that his prophets and messengers haven't affirmed. It's much safer that way, so we don't go around making all types of incorrect claims on the most high.

[r3ader]

haha, picnic with the One... that's an afternoon.

 

I concur with you regarding the wife issue; that was just my back-door if someone said "well if there's only one creator and you follow the concept of evolution then how did G-d have kids?"

 

again i'm not saying i believe G-d has a wife or denoting his omnipotence whatsoever, forgive me if i implied that.

[Dawood]

I don't follow, who said God had kids?

[russell jones]

ok, well, here's some more on Allaah, I don't know if you would consider this part of an ontological argument or not, but it's my latest addition to the thread nonetheless.

 

Ibnul – Qayyim said in ‘Madaarijus – saalikeen’ (1/41-):

The name ‘Allaah’ indicates all of the perfect names and lofty Attributes in the three ways of indication, since it indicates His Divinity which includes affirmation of all the characteristics of Divinity for Him, along with negation of their opposites for Him.

So the attributes of Divinity are the attributes of perfection, being free of any likeness with the creation, and free of any deficiency or imperfection…

 

From the Excellent Virtues of this name: (Allaah)

Ibn al-Qayyim ÑÍãå Çááå said:

‘….As for the particular virtues of the meaning (of this name), then the most knowledgeable of the creation Õáì Çááå Úáíå æ Óáã said: ‘I could not praise you enough (as you deserve), You are as you have praised yourself.’ (Muslim from the hadeeth of Aa’isha ÑÖí Çááå ÚäåÇ) So how could we enumerate the special virtues of the name of One who comprises every perfection, unrestrictedly, and every praise and commendation, and every laudation and exaltation, and all splendour and all perfection, and all glory and all beauty, and all good and eminence; and all generosity, excellence and goodness is for Him and from Him.

So this name is not mentioned upon a small amount except that it causes it to increase, nor in a state of fear except that it removes it, nor upon any misfortune except that it relieves it, nor in any state of anxiety and distress except that it brings relief, nor upon any state of difficulty except that it eases it. None who is weak resorts to it except that it brings strength to Him, nor anyone in a state of humiliation except that it brings honour to him, nor anyone in poverty except that he is enriched, nor anyone who feels estranged and uneasy except that it causes him to feel at ease; nor is it mentioned by one who has been overcome except that it brings aid and victory for him, nor by one in straightened circumstances except that that his difficulty is removed, nor by a fugitive except that he finds refuge. So it is the name through which distress is removed, through which the descent of blessings is sought, and through which supplications are answered. Through it slips are corrected, sins are warded away, and good deeds are brought closer.

It is the name with which the earth and the heavens were established, and with which the revealed books were sent down, and with which the messengers were sent. With it legislated laws were prescribed, through it the prescribed punishments were established, and with it Jihaad was prescribed. Through this name the creation became divided into the fortunate and the wretched. With it the true and tremendous Day is established, and with it the scales of justice are set up, the bridge laid down, and the Paradise and the Fire established. With it the Lord of all creation is worshipped and praised. For its right the messengers were sent, and it will be asked about in the grave, and for it there will be a resurrection. Dispute is regarding it, and judgement is to it, and alliance and enmity are for it. Through it those who know it and establish its rights will be the fortunate ones, and through it those who are ignorant of it and leave its right will be wretched ones. So it is the reason for creation and command, and through it they are established and confirmed, and to it they arrive at a conclusion. So the creation comes about through it, returns to it and exists because of it. So there is nothing in creation and no command, nor reward and no punishment except that it starts from it and ends with it. That is what brings it about and its reason:

(Translated meaning: O our Lord you have not created all of this without purpose. Free and far removed are you from that, so save us from the punishment of the Fire) (surah Aali-Imraan (3):191)

(Tayseerul-Azeezil-Hameed)

Compiled by Dawud abu Talha

 

 

Islam seems to have an almost scientific view of God compared to Christianity, which relies more on mystery and dare I say, superstition. Don't read into what I'm saying to much though...

[r3ader]

Dawood, forget i said any of that stuff; i'm not saying anyone says G-d had kids, just stating an argument that's pro-G-d and pro-evolution; just forget it, i'll try to refine my thoughts and re-state at a different time.

 

Russel, that's true, but you also have to remember the time periods in which the documents founding these religions were written. The Hebrew texts, such as the Torah, were written in a time period with very little scientific evidence but still had a lot of very scientific-ish rationales for various things. Same with Christianity; but people in large were much more "enlightened" in regards to science and chemistry at the time period of the writing of the Quran and related texts than they were in previous generations (that wrote the Jewish and Christian texts).

[Module X]

In light of some concepts that Super Nintendo Chalmers introduced, I have an idea for a new direction for this thread. I believe that the main reason why I am an "earnest" atheist, is the lack of use for the concept of God, or supernatural beings in general, in my life. In other words, God contributes nothing to my life.

 

My position is that God as a "supernatural being" is a misinterpretation of religion, although I'm not entirely positive how we're defining "supernatural being." I realize that's a big statement to make, but I think it's supported.

 

As an atheist you must have your own ideas about the nature of existence, therefore you must have a personal concept of God on your own terms. Your presence in this thread suggests God contributes a good deal to your life, whether or not you choose to call it God.

[russell jones]

My position is that God as a "supernatural being" is a misinterpretation of religion, although I'm not entirely positive how we're defining "supernatural being." I realize that's a big statement to make, but I think it's supported.

 

As an atheist you must have your own ideas about the nature of existence, therefore you must have a personal concept of God on your own terms. Your presence in this thread suggests God contributes a good deal to your life, whether or not you choose to call it God.

 

 

Define God.

 

My presence in this thread does not imply that God contributes to my life, other than through other people's concepts of God, which I study. What you said is like saying if I study Greek myths, then I must have a use for Zeus in my life.

[Dawood]

Define God.

 

.

 

 

Allah

Standard Arabic word for God, used by Arab Christians as well as by Muslims. According to the Qur'an, Allah is the creator and judge of humankind, omnipotent, compassionate, and merciful. The Muslim profession of faith affirms that there is no deity worthy of worship but God and emphasizes that he is inherently unique in his oneness: "nothing is like unto him." Everything that happens occurs by his commandment; submission to God is the basis of Islam. The Qur'an and the Hadith contain the 99 "most beautiful names" of God, including the One and Only, the Living One, the Real Truth, the Hearer, the Seer, the Benefactor, and the Constant Forgiver.

[tabloid-]

I'm confused by the idea that evolution discredits god. If all living things were in fact the product of god, and technically the most important job living organisms have is to survive, then wouldn't adapting to survive be the ultimate " honor thy' father' scenario.

[Dawood]

I guess that would work theoretically except Islam, Christianity and Judaism do not beleive that man evolved from nothing. (at least I think) So from now on I'll talk about Islam's beleif. We beleive that man was created and not mutated. To say that man evolved from nothing and created himself would contradict what revelation came with, that man was created by God, so actually, we really can't have out cake and eat it too with this one.

[Module X]

Define God.

 

I guess I'd say God is what's behind religion. Whatever IT is, the atavistic egg of reality (yeah I like that word) as well as reality itself. It's not necessarily valid to say God is a creator. Maybe you could equate God to energy. You and I are God. The one that is many, to put it in more Eastern terms. I find the idea that you cannot draw any fundamental separation between anything in the universe both intuitively and intellectually satisfying. Even as an atheist, you have beliefs that in some way explain reality on terms that are personally meaningful. I don't think the concept of God is as superficial as the concept of Zeus, although I believe both monotheistic and polytheistic traditions have a common origin in this essential inscrutability of what lies at the very fundament of our existence. Obviously there is a huge amount of nonsense surrounding any religious tradition, but my definition of God is a common core that I think renders all of them essentially equivelent. In any case I still suspect any disagreement between us is probably semantic.

[russell jones]

I guess I'd say God is what's behind religion. Whatever IT is, the atavistic egg of reality (yeah I like that word) as well as reality itself. It's not necessarily valid to say God is a creator. Maybe you could equate God to energy. You and I are God. The one that is many, to put it in more Eastern terms. I find the idea that you cannot draw any fundamental separation between anything in the universe both intuitively and intellectually satisfying. Even as an atheist, you have beliefs that in some way explain reality on terms that are personally meaningful. I don't think the concept of God is as superficial as the concept of Zeus, although I believe both monotheistic and polytheistic traditions have a common origin in this essential inscrutability of what lies at the very fundament of our existence. Obviously there is a huge amount of nonsense surrounding any religious tradition, but my definition of God is a common core that I think renders all of them essentially equivelent. In any case I still suspect any disagreement between us is probably semantic.

 

 

Maybe... I have to think about this one.

[the.crooked]

In response to the quote above:

 

To me, the term god refers to reality. As you are saying, it is the base, of all religions, blah blah blah. But basically the quality about god that is attempted to be captured through metaphor in dogma, is it's ineffability. Ironically, one of the main tenets of christian dogma rings true even in late analytic philosophy and other veins: that we are limited and thus incapable of fully grasping that which it is that is the essential basics of our existence.

 

God, as an object, remains stuck in our particle vantage point of person, thing, extended form, etc. But really, 'god' is just the totality of all things existing. Spinoza spoke of god in this respect, and it carried over into Bergson, and others.

 

Also, like you are saying, it is pulled through in many eastern philosophies. Taoism is particularly keen to the notion. Though it is more focused on the ethics implied by such beliefs.

 

I would talk more, but I'm on spring break. So im gonna go get drunk.

[Module X]

I completely agree with you crooked, and it sounds like you agree with what I've been trying to say. It's interesting how it's such a simple idea, yet its expression is so easily interpreted in vastly different ways. In this instance, it's just a small matter of words. In a greater context, entire, seemingly disparate religious traditions have developed around it.

[r3ader]

Don't listen to that lady on what the bleep so much. You and I are not G-d: no offense, but i believe G-d created a wall of fire to help lead the Israelites out of Egypt: you, kind sir, cannot do that. If you want to dispute my version of history, that's fine, but I'll never think I'm equal to G-d and i think that's an unfair statement.

 

Even if you're saying energy - because you're made of matter does not make you equal to the concept of energy. Can you truly explain energy, like on a nano-science level? I highly doubt it.

 

And I don't believe in the concept of G-d being many. That's unfathomable to me.

 

And if you are G-d i would highly appreciate you explaining to me what "the very fundament of our existence" is. Fundamental idea or foundation is what i think you meant to say. Nonetheless, you tell me how our "existence" came to be, in a manner in which you can prove, and i'll begin to consider your proposition.

 

because i don't claim to have all the answers, but i believe He (G-d) does have them. And no, i don't doubt Him because He doesn't just give me the answers. He's who I believe to be above me, not my peer who should help me cheat on the complicated stuff.

[russell jones]

In response to the quote above:

 

To me, the term god refers to reality. As you are saying, it is the base, of all religions, blah blah blah. But basically the quality about god that is attempted to be captured through metaphor in dogma, is it's ineffability. Ironically, one of the main tenets of christian dogma rings true even in late analytic philosophy and other veins: that we are limited and thus incapable of fully grasping that which it is that is the essential basics of our existence.

 

God, as an object, remains stuck in our particle vantage point of person, thing, extended form, etc. But really, 'god' is just the totality of all things existing. Spinoza spoke of god in this respect, and it carried over into Bergson, and others.

 

Also, like you are saying, it is pulled through in many eastern philosophies. Taoism is particularly keen to the notion. Though it is more focused on the ethics implied by such beliefs.

 

I would talk more, but I'm on spring break. So im gonna go get drunk.

 

But why call it God? What's the point?

[Module X]

Don't listen to that lady on what the bleep so much. You and I are not G-d: no offense, but i believe G-d created a wall of fire to help lead the Israelites out of Egypt: you, kind sir, cannot do that. If you want to dispute my version of history, that's fine, but I'll never think I'm equal to G-d and i think that's an unfair statement.

 

Hold on there guy, I've never seen what the bleep, I don't plan on seeing it, and two pages back I was talking about how it's bullshit. I'm glad you're down with Jewish tradition, I was raised Jewish as well but I'm an intellectually headstrong person and I have never blindly accepted anything I read or hear about without considering it on my own. I think you're looking into my statement "you and I are God" way too much. Of course I can't create a wall of fire or lead anybody out of Egypt. If you read what I've been saying, my definition of God is NOT an external deity who can be said to somehow exist outside of our world and have a supernatural hand in our affairs. As I've been trying to explain, I think your view is a misinterpration of religion in the first place.

 

Even if you're saying energy - because you're made of matter does not make you equal to the concept of energy. Can you truly explain energy, like on a nano-science level? I highly doubt it.

 

Here's a physics lesson. E=mc^2. Ever seen that equation? Let me explain what it means: energy is equal to mass multiplied by the speed of light (a constant) squared. Doesn't get more direct than that, and general relativity is one of the best supported scientific theories of all time. Please drop the attack on my scientific credibility, because I'm fairly positive I know a lot more about it than you do. No offense. I can see what you're getting at about "truly" explaining the stuff that makes us up, and if you read what I've been writing I think you'll see that I agree with you to some extent.

 

And I don't believe in the concept of G-d being many. That's unfathomable to me.

 

Then think about it some more.

 

And if you are G-d i would highly appreciate you explaining to me what "the very fundament of our existence" is. Fundamental idea or foundation is what i think you meant to say. Nonetheless, you tell me how our "existence" came to be, in a manner in which you can prove, and i'll begin to consider your proposition.

 

Again you're looking into my statement too much. And don't tell me what I was trying to say, fundament is synonymous with foundation and I intentionally chose the word because it also means ass (hey! I have a sense of humor!) I generally don't throw around words I don't understand, so don't try to call me out. And again, you need to actually read what I've been writing before going off on a tirade, because I've basically been saying that there is this ineffable aspect of reality that is beyond our comprehension. I never claimed to be YOUR God, and I never claimed to fully understand the basis of reality.

[r3ader]

I'm glad you think what the bleep is ridiculous, but a lot of what you said is similar to it's message, so forgive my discrepancy.

 

I think it's great you think for yourself and make your own decisions, i do too, that's the only way to live life.

 

You probably do know more about science and physics more than i do, i was always into english and history. So that's great. I've been reading what you've been writing but maybe not well enough, so I'll try to review your past statements.

 

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you in a general sense, the concept that we're all matter and energy and that that's what life's essence is, and that in a sense that's what G-d could be. Sure, that makes sense to me. My point was just that none of us have all the answers: therefore, I'm not going to say you're wrong because you could be right, and I question when people speak with authority regarding such infinite issues.

 

I've thought about the concept of G-d being multiple things for years on end. Judaism was the closest thing to sanity with religion I could find. Am I a chest-thumping ultra-Orthodox Jew? No way. Will I ever be? Probably not.

 

I'm not trying to call you out, i just didn't understand your statement. I didn't say you were wrong or stupid, etc. I don't think i'm ranting but it's possible. I completely concur with the concept of things being beond our comprehension.

 

Sorry i got you so riled up, that was never my intention. Good day!

[Dawood]

r3ader, what made you turn to Judaism as opposed to Islam? Both are monotheistic and both love and respect Moses as a true prophet of God. One fundamental difference is that Islam gives God his true rights and does not fall short in that since it is the last revelation to mankind. Judaism, in my opinion is the oudated version of Islam, like if God were running computer programs, Judaism could be God's guidance.002 and Islam would be God's guidance.003.x.updated and completed.

 

It seems to me like the rest of the Jews left should just convert to Islam, get it over with and stop being so stubborn about it.

 

but that's just me.

[the.crooked]

Chalmers- Yup.

 

Russel- It is a simple term. It is foolish to think we are the first to grasp the relatedness of the word to the ineffability of experience and existence. There were people who figured this shit out way back. And they are the ones who gave us the convention. It was a tool for them to harness and direct an ethics that fit the time they lived in. What is christian dogma but a basis for the morality it prescribes?

 

 

Dawood- your a cool dude, but absolutely ridiculous.

 

 

I think it is a very interesting discussion of when to capitalize the word god. I feel like there is so much of a personal choice in metaphysical beliefs that are contained even in that simple act. I do not believe in such so I never capitalize lest it be speaking of a specific context. As in speaking of the christian God, comparative to god as just the concept.

 

 

Anywho, I have just been thinkin about the relationship between epiphenomenal linguistic acts and how they translate into actual metaphysical statements.

[r3ader]

Dawood - mostly the fact that Jesus was a Jew and i felt it necessary to follow the path he walked as closely as possible.

 

As i mentioned to another Muslim on this service I haven't read into Islam enough to say it's right for me, but I'm surely not against it and plan to read the Quran within due time.

 

the thing is,

be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, Pagans,

people should only convert because they want to,

and i like the fact that Judaism is not interested in "converting the masses".

i recognize that Islam follows a similar strain and will give it appropriate attention when i get to a stage in my life where i can devote sufficient time to study of it.

[Issac Brock]

God doesn't exist. When you die, it will feel the same way it felt before you were born. Close thread.

[r3ader]

i feel like i had lots of experiences prior to birth on this plane. sorry to hear that your lacking in such regards.

[Issac Brock]

Nah I'm actually fine with everyone's personal beliefs. I just felt like saying that. That is my feeling about it all. There is pretty much nothing that could convince me that there is a god. I am just thinking about it logically. I feel like people just aren't satisfied with not knowing everything about the universe, so they make up answers. I am satisfied with accepting that I do not know.

[russell jones]

I am satisfied with accepting that I do not know.

 

Exactly. This one line explains why I am an atheist. I don't choose to call the ultimate source of our reality "god," but rather something that I just don't know. My life and death is much more important than ultimate reality.

[Issac Brock]

This one line explains why I am an atheist.

 

Me too. That is why I call myself an atheist.

[Dawood]

Dawood - mostly the fact that Jesus was a Jew and i felt it necessary to follow the path he walked as closely as possible.

 

As i mentioned to another Muslim on this service I haven't read into Islam enough to say it's right for me, but I'm surely not against it and plan to read the Quran within due time.

 

the thing is,

be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, Pagans,

people should only convert because they want to,

and i like the fact that Judaism is not interested in "converting the masses".

i recognize that Islam follows a similar strain and will give it appropriate attention when i get to a stage in my life where i can devote sufficient time to study of it.

 

Jesus was a jew in the sense that he was born to the tribe of bani Isreal but his religion was Islam since he was of those who "submitted to God".

 

that's excellent that you want to read the quran. you can get the best translation at

http://www.dar-us-salam.com/ or just read it at www.thenoblequran.com

Youre absolutely right that people should only convert if they want to, that's why the quran says

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût (false Gods) and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

I've always tended to think that jews don't encourage conversion because in truth Judaism says that you only be a jew by lineage through your mother anyway, now I understand why that would change due to political corectness and modern thinking, but tradition is traditioan and I'm sure there are plenty of Jews who look upon converts as being unauthentic. But that's just my thinking, i may be wrong.