Guest TEARZ Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 our buddy kissinger was all up in the cyprus mix. that fucking filthy pathetic excuse for a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanity Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by Smart What do the Israelis offer? i thought our whole justification was that they gave us a military stronghold in the region. he does bring up a good point though... if you aren't proposing solutions, it's just intellectual masturbation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanity Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Re: Re: Re: smart? Originally posted by !@#$% and you make no mention of my point that ireland has not attacked say, norway. fucking norway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Never have? WWII? Israel, and the entire middle east was divided from land 'owned' by whom? Norway hasn't been supporting and tacitly sanctioning British terror camps, so far as I know... Are you saying Syria is some innocent 3rd party to the intefada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by Smart Are you saying Syria is some innocent 3rd party to the intefada? No man, The big question is Are you saying that Israel doesnt fit under the term terrorist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by Smart Never have? WWII? Israel, and the entire middle east was divided from land 'owned' by whom? Norway hasn't been supporting and tacitly sanctioning British terror camps, so far as I know... Are you saying Syria is some innocent 3rd party to the intefada? israel needs to give up their claims to the region it's all based on some bogus entitlement based on thousands of years ago.. the distribution of the ottoman empire post ww1 was the start of some huge fiascos in the region. not post ww2 look back further, to when the middle east was ruled by arabs and turks in the arabian and ottoman empires. iraq didn't even exist before ww1 france was still trying to colonize syria in the 1920s. and i cannot say for certain what the syrian governement has or has not been supporting.. hell, even on the front page of my local newspaper it says that israel hit "ALLEGED terror camps" the u.s. has opened up the 'pre-emptive strike with no evidence' pandora's box. i'm not saying syria is innocent, but what country is?! certainly not the u.s. so by your argument, it's ok for say, nicaragua to hit us with military retaliation based on some terrorist shit our government did there?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 and i would still like to know where you got that the u.s. funds britain with Billions of dollars in aid. and couldn't that then be considering a cooperative terrorism force in training between the u.s. and britain (based on our current 'covert' operations in iraq, pakistan, afghanistan, and a few months ago, Syria?!) we are terrorists too, by these semantics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by Tesseract No man, The big question is Are you saying that Israel doesnt fit under the term terrorist? yeah, No... what I said, and continue to say is that nobody's definitions matter when the fighting is in the street. You can all decry either sides acts of inhumanity all day and night but you can't exert one IOTA of influence in/over the conflict. Define away, put it into terms we can all understand, balance the religious tensions in your statement, solve it all from 1000 miles away but don't be suprised when things continue as before. Neither side is willing to concede anything... both sides want the other wiped from the planet. Here you stand arguing who is the more admirable of the race hating and religiously intolerant governments. Imho, that is a big waste of time... argue about how to educate the youth of both countries, how to push the old hardliners out of office, how to promote tolerance and understanding... That idea alone is a brutal conflict waiting to happen internally on both sides, similar to the desegregation of the US in the early 60's... there is a long hard road in front of that region but arguing about the day to day, for those of us not in the middle of it, is arrogant and ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 i don't believe that everyone should just shut up because they don't understand. i still think that jewish settlers don't have a claim to the region. i hope that doesn't make me anti-semitic, but it is obvious that there is no solution to satisfy everyone.. but it continues to get worse. i also don't believe that must happen. i am a firm believer in the interconnectedness of all things. i am not going to ignore this because i don't live in the midst of it. i am not admiring one side over another i am taking a side: the u.s. must stop funding israeli military action, stop the wall building, and encourage jews to settle elsewhere. of course i am not surprised by the perpetuation of violence. does that mean i should cease to be outraged? i won't become cynical and apathetic because i'm too far away to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by !@#$% and i would still like to know where you got that the u.s. funds britain with Billions of dollars in aid. Yeah, thanks for the history lesson... I was actually referring to WWII. Who do you think financed that effort? The Brits were on shaky financial standing due to WWI AND the several years spent in Burma fighting the Japanese and in Europe fighting Hitler before we entered, AND bankrolled the whole show. And, following the war, due to Britan's continuing financial struggles, overtook the position of patron to Israel. Why do you all keep trying to portray me as 'wrapped in the flag' and 'anti-terrorist'? EVERYONE, EVERY GOVERNMENT EVER has committed terrorist acts. EVERY ONE! It happens, deal with it... or offer a valid solution... I'm guessing you guys are prepared to deal (and bitch)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 so we shouldn't have learned from that right? and who are we currently bankrolling to further our own political interests? so, yeah, i was correct. we are NOT CURRENTLY financing britain. we are cooperating with them to take over a middle eastern country, while the u.s. simultaneously funds israeli conflict against another middle eastern country. my original point: we are too fucking involved with the bankrolling of that country's military. and thanks to the additional ww2 examples, we can see that the u.s. has been bankrolling subversive military campaigns for decades. thanks for the sarcasm lesson. i forgot, everyone is fucked, all governments are shit, let's throw up our hands and not bother to talk about it. we can all sit back and enjoy a money shot of kettie's crotch instead of some intense discussion about international issues. yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by Smart Imho, that is a big waste of time... argue about how to educate the youth of both countries, how to push the old hardliners out of office, how to promote tolerance and understanding... That idea alone is a brutal conflict waiting to happen internally on both sides, similar to the desegregation of the US in the early 60's... there is a long hard road in front of that region but arguing about the day to day, for those of us not in the middle of it, is arrogant and ignorant. Dude, c'mon now...you know i always respect (not in a PO kinda way) your points and thoughts. However i feel you're on some devil advocating kinda shit right now. We're not debating so we can get it solved, we're debating as 'outsiders' (that a whole new convo there) in a struggle to find the truth. Its a moral issue of wanting to know, and an issue of educating people so you could theoritically avoid that kind of shit in the future, even in the present. Form 'common knowledge'. I dont pretend to be some sort of master on the subject but i'm always down on discussing things that interest me. We are living in very corrupted times, and its everyones duty to protect himself from ingorance that leads to laid back ignorance, thats the price westerns pay for having a secure lifestyle, being able to not give a fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by Smart Why do you all keep trying to portray me as 'wrapped in the flag' and 'anti-terrorist'? EVERYONE, EVERY GOVERNMENT EVER has committed terrorist acts. EVERY ONE! It happens, deal with it... or offer a valid solution... I'm guessing you guys are prepared to deal (and bitch)... The sum of all that is that the 'war against terrorism' is just another crusade...that has been my point since day1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 since i can not take place in these discussions due to an overload of work in the world of accounting, i designate !@#$ as speaking on my behalf on this matter, as well as any other middle eastern conflict. so whatever !@#$ says, now counts as double. thank you. seeks/oh, did i say fuck you? i meant double fuck you forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Well, again I'm afraid I've mortally offended !@#$% though perhaps she seperates spirited debate from personal politics but, so few do... and, you know I respect you Tesser... still... This isn't a discussion aimed at truth... that's why I, the 'moderate' who has taken a decidedly middle of the road approach catches so much hate. !@#$% is practiacally married to her beliefs and so are most of the others posting in here. If we were truly focused on truth we would accept that both sides are wrong, both sides inhumane. THEN, and this is the part that always gets skipped aound here, we would give PROPS to the 'right thinkers' (I mean correct, not conservative) on both sides. We would echo and amplify their beliefs and strategies. The sad fact is that both sides still want war. It's like watching a 12 round boxing match in super slo-mo and giving every punch attempt a break down based on it's aggressiveness and effectiveness... all this while pretending that the 2 guys in the ring are just hanging out and minding their own business... and the 2 guys are NOT Israelis and Palestininans, it is Israelis versus most Arabs... maybe I should have made a Wrasslin' analogy as well... anyway... round 5 is just about over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Dazzle Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 I'll start rationing the cheese puffs and canned corn...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 I dont think anyone can propose a working solution without really understanding the problem. So if we were to boil it down to a 't-shirt sized slogan'... the problem is territory. so what's a solution? Let's say that Saudi Arabia offers to transplant every person in Palestine and integrate them into their own economy. The Palestinians wouldn't leave their homeland and you can bet the USA wouldn't allow any nation to take such big steps without Uncle Sam overseing the whole thing. On the other side... If you were to offer..say.. New Jersey to the Jewish people, you can bet none of them would be willing to leave 'their homeland' either. It really saddens me to say it, but there will be no solution that doesn't involved the dehumanization of one of these groups (in the long term) and I'd bet it wont be the Israelis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 I dont disagree at all...however, for me, and truths sake, Israelis are the ones who initially had fault. Misjustice happened under an international umbrella and eventhough i agree with you that both sides are wrong at this point, the only solution i see is Israelis giving back the land they stole, and palestinians forming an official goverment. I think !@#$%'s words underline mostly the historical road that lead there...she's a cat with claws but we all love that kind dont we? i personally do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 here I need to swap sides (in regards to tesseracts point) A huge chunk of the land Israel 'stole' happened after Arab forces attacked them in the 70's. They were invaded and then forced back the attackers and kept land that was previously beyond their borders. Is that theft? well I suppose yes, but it's like stealing the wallet frm the mugger you beat up. Morally wrong but what cop is going to charge you with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Tesseract, well, see, there you're married to an idea as well... so, seeking truth or not, you're still seeking it from a predjudiced position, that doesn't mean that you're wrong... maybe just a bit less right... And I can't think of a way to capitalize on your !@#$% analogy without vaugely insulting her so I'll just agree... but I would like to point out that, in the face of what some haters believe, the 'original' jewish homeland was gonna be in Argentina. And, yeah, I'm a big supporter of the Israeli right of conquest defined by the war in the 60's but, the continued forays and settlement into and around the boundaries outlined after that conflict seriously jeprodize their moral position regarding resident opposition in those areas... Underlying all of this is the very concept of imposing rigidly defined borders upon people who are basically nomadic by nature... I mean, I don't care what city it is, when I got my crew together we basically own our spot and 200 feet around us, and we got beef if you disagree. This is based stricly on self preservation, if you're cool then mingle, if not... ejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Love to the 12oz Fam!! Come on, you all keep me interested. married to my beliefs? i'd like to think that i am passionate about them but totally willing to admit defeat and i am ok with being wrong sometimes. i love a lively discussion. and its cool that we can all talk about it. of course i have learned a great deal form all this discussion, some about opinions, some from links to historical info, some new knowledge about positions and ideals i never considered. i never get angry about this shit, my aggression is sprayed all over metal. it doesn't play out here. and we could all use another intelligent woman in our lives, right? ...make your points i won't be offended. i'm smart enough not to take it personally yes, i knew about argentina too. and i can absolutely agree that after reading quite a bit about it, both sides are mostly interested in defeating the other side, not so much in making peace, or even what is in their own best interest. sadly, the whole conflict has boiled down to a vendetta. the sorriest part about that is that the vendetta was basically created form nothing. in ancient times jews and arabs coexisted in peace. it wasn't until years of war in the west that the middle east started getting diviied up, and the quagmire was thus created. solutions? ..like i said, i still believe israel needs to calm down, a lot. the outer settlements need to be dismantled, by force if necessary. the aggressive israeli nationalist settlers need to be hemmed in..they are on the front lines, and great examples of israelis who are more interested in conflict than peace. the wall building needs to cease the billions of $$ in military aids needs to be reduced hamas and islamic jihad need to respond to the above concessions. maybe if israel exchanged some low level inmated for a big leader, or if their was an actual ceasefire for a time there could be the release of a figurehead.. someone needs to start trusting first. ...so yeah, i may be married to my beliefs, but i am well aware of the existance and value of a million other opinions. it's all good, baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TEARZ Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 smart, i gotta say that i think that the line you've taken in this whole thing is bullshit. first you make the dramatic entrance, making the all-too-familiar "we can never know what really goes on so why bother to talk about it" argument, then go on to reduce all conversation in this thread, of which there was some very good stuff (esp !@#$%) to extranumerary "bitching," followed up by the haughty claim that ireland's conflict has more political relevance to the us than does the us-palestine conflict (again, the superciliousness returns- the kids table talks about x when the "real shit" is y) and furthermore you never back this shit up. ever (par usual i must say). then when it's all done you wanna play the moderate under attack card. we're in here discussing shit- the fact that we take the time to type shit out means that what we are discussing matters to us on some level. if your argument is gonna be that it doesn't matter, then don't respond. or if you're gonna pull the haughty shit and say that we're in here microanalyzing the conflict, i just disagree. if you see sharon's attempt to remove arafat for example, as just round 4 of 12, pardon me while i fucking watch that shit in slo-mo with chips, discussing every twitch in muscle fiber of each boxer with the rest of the kids table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanity Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 i don't think you can expect isreal to give anything up.. it does say in the bible that's it's the jewish promise land and what not, and when you're fighting with the belief that God is on your side, that'll give you quite a bit of confidence. ISRAEL AND SYRIA - OLD FOES Went to war in 1948, 1967 and 1973 Israeli attacks on Syrian forces in Lebanon go back to 1982, with new strikes in 2001 Israeli warplanes buzzed a presidential palace in Syria in August in what was seen as a warning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TEARZ Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 whoops, i ruined the love fest. haha, but it's nothing personal/permanent, just the way i feel, dunnies. btw, !@#$% is my motherfuckin girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Re: Love to the 12oz Fam!! Originally posted by !@#$% Come on, you all keep me interested. married to my beliefs? and we could all use another intelligent woman in our lives, right? Its the first time in my life i wish i was not a man, but a belief.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by TEARZ whoops, i ruined the love fest. haha, but it's nothing personal/permanent, just the way i feel, dunnies. btw, !@#$% is my motherfuckin girl. .. we are a family. we can spread love. and bickering, arguing, petty conflicts, and on point criticism. expect nothing less! :D g yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TEARZ Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Re: Re: Love to the 12oz Fam!! Originally posted by Tesseract Its the first time in my life i wish i was not a man, but a belief.... hahahaha, funny shit, tess i beg you to remember that you said this... tuck it away for posterity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanity Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 i dont see why kids are getting upset w/ smart... if it werent for him, this thread woulda been like 10 posts, and ya'll couldn't jerk eachother off ;) vanatee whale... still dolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Love to the 12oz Fam!! Originally posted by TEARZ hahahaha, funny shit, tess i beg you to remember that you said this... tuck it away for posterity. :dazed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Originally posted by TEARZ smart, i gotta say that i think that the line you've taken in this whole thing is bullshit. first you make the dramatic entrance, making the all-too-familiar "we can never know what really goes on so why bother to talk about it" argument, then go on to reduce all conversation in this thread, of which there was some very good stuff (esp !@#$%) to extranumerary "bitching," followed up by the haughty claim that ireland's conflict has more political relevance to the us than does the us-palestine conflict (again, the superciliousness returns- the kids table talks about x when the "real shit" is y) and furthermore you never back this shit up. ever (par usual i must say). then when it's all done you wanna play the moderate under attack card. we're in here discussing shit- the fact that we take the time to type shit out means that what we are discussing matters to us on some level. if your argument is gonna be that it doesn't matter, then don't respond. or if you're gonna pull the haughty shit and say that we're in here microanalyzing the conflict, i just disagree. if you see sharon's attempt to remove arafat for example, as just round 4 of 12, pardon me while i fucking watch that shit in slo-mo with chips, discussing every twitch in muscle fiber of each boxer with the rest of the kids table. Dramatic entrance... wow, unexpected bonus! The only fact I've been trying to find is the one about US support for Britan... the only thing I've dug up so far is $50 billion, but I think that is the total package, but it was in a report about Angola, a British colony/protectorate/whatever they call it... *Oh I just saw where you wanted me to elucidate the intricacies of the UK, RoI, US political relationship... well that's gonna be another thread at least. I don't think that, just because I discarded !#$%'s argument that I belittled her personally in any way (or I kinda did feel that from it but didn't mean to get personal, hence the later reference toward 'offwending her'). Quite the contrary, I took the time to engage her, and you all, simply because I care about, and value what she, and you all, think/thinks... Now, I disagreed with it so I didn't give her whopping creds on her conclusions but I wouldn't have replied if it wasn't well presented. I have played the moderate card from day one... all the way back to when Seeking told me I couldn't quit an argument (That was the one where he insisted that the US truck bombed to Pentagon to heighten the outrage on 9/11)... Further, my argument isn't that the issue doesn't matter, it's that you (collectively) are AGAIN arguing about the scab and cause of the wound instead of treating the infection as it currently exists. You can stick to your finger pointing politics and johnny-come-fashionably-lately derived positions but until you offer solutions or insight I'm gonna classify it as the babbling about socio-inequality from some middle class white punk (fat) chick at the mall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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