Harvey Wallbanger

Haha, good point LUGR. COS, I'm not going to get into a post by post analysis explaining why you sound like an idiot. But I think everyone can agree that: 1) people who know their history on a given topic (because they have devoted countless hours to studying it) have more credibility than those who don't, and 2) one artist teaching another style and technique would fall under the definition of "influence". Also, 3) if the parties involved in point #2 are generally considered some of the top practitioners of their medium in the world, then that aforementioned influence probably warrants discussion by people who are fans of that particular medium. (See point #1)

Weird; we finally had an interesting thread with somewhat intelligent debate, people with actual knowledge were sharing it with people who had a genuine interest in hearing it... and then COS forgot his meds, rolled in talking complete nonsense, and the thread devolved into another random image depository. I haven't seen that happen since... oh, about the last time Channel 0 was good.

Haha, they tried...

I definitely feel you on the "punk isn't punk anymore" thing, 1000%. I was going to mention that along with the fact that the wall isn't trying to be "subversive" or anything else that people were calling this stuff a decade ago. But I don't think this is irony for irony's sake either. They did this same thing in San Diego as part of a commission by the Museum of Contemporary Art, and the community was so outraged that it got buffed within a few days. My guess is that's the best reaction these dudes could hope for, rather than something that makes the average Joe say "hey, maybe graffiti isn't so bad." And I know the timeline, Barry started showing in galleries in '91 and was doing major installations by the mid 90's. Other "fine" artists were definitely biting his style by the mid 90's as well. I referred to 1990 because that was the last time that that style would have been nearly impossible to find in that sort of venue. Yes, there had been paintings with drips in them, but I think it's pretty clear that he was using them in a way that was new to your average art collector. And obviously Barry (and Ralph Steadman) came from a long line of character artists, but again, I think everyone can probably agree that he started doing them in a way that no one had ever really seen before, and that we've all seen copied a whole lot since.

I fully agree with most of that post. I'm also an art fan and collector, both inside and outside of the graffiti world. And the part about Dream is dead on, no doubt. F'real though, I'm not jocking. I honestly think that wall is fresh as fuck, but those guys have also done some shit that I thought was only so-so. I just think that it's cool to go to a spot where the general populace is looking for some family friendly, new New York style mural, and give them a wall full of tags. The people who passed the twins' mural or the Shepard installation and thought, "isn't that nice?" are going to hate this, which I find awesome. It's not "subversive", it's not Kaws dressing up a Disney character, or Espo with some cleverly sappy wordplay* -- it offers nothing at all for the average, non-writer to relate to. That's what I think is great about it. I do hope that once this has it's run, the twin's mural sees the light of day again, and I know a lot of the neighborhood feels the same way. *For the record, Espo is awesome, and I would love to see him take a crack at this wall sometime too.

I doubt he would, but I guess neither of us really knows. When I typed out my opinion about the wall, and you replied that it was bullshit and I knew it, that I was just a yes-man cheerleader, I took that as saying my opinion wasn't true. Where did I misread that? It sounds like you restated it in the same paragraph where you denied it, only this time tried to make it more of a straight up diss to me. What happened to expecting more? All I'm saying is that I still stand by my first post, despite your claims that I 1)don't actually feel that way, and 2)for some reason feel like I need to be championing someone who is clearly doing alright on their own. I don't get on 12 ounce to make sure nobody says anything mean that might hurt Barry's feelings, I get on here to say what I feel. I don't know where the irony comes in, but yeah, the Josh 5/ Joz 5 thing was unfortunate. What are you gonna do? Someone said "put up a Joz 5 RIP", it sounds a lot like "Put up a Josh 5 RIP". It's an old wall, it probably doesn't have a spell check on it. I don't even know what the game is, or why you're taking this so personally; I have nothing against you, I'm just offering a different opinion. I don't expect to change your mind or anyone else's, and I certainly don't think anyone is "winning" anything in Channel 0, ever. I had some shit to say about the wall, I said it while I waited for this work shit to print out, and now I'm going to go do some other stuff. We could just as easily be debating in the Smash or Trash thread. My only point is there are two sides to this debate, and there are a lot of people on both. And ultimately, none of their opinions are going to affect that wall, unless someone goes and paints over it themselves.

I'm not taking anything personal-- I'm sipping on my iced coffee and having a laugh. My jump to "Go diss it" was a leapfrog off of your "what you said is horse shit". Just keeping things on whatever level they get dragged down to, and it seems like all the criticism I've heard about that wall basically boils down to people being mad that it wasn't New Yorkers painting it. That doesn't bother me; I paint when I travel to other people's cities, and I like that others do the same when they come to mine. I think everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is why I stated mine (along with the reasons I feel that way) in my first post on this page. I still stand by that 100%, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing yours, or I wouldn't be bothering with this. The only thing I'm not open to is being told that my opinions aren't actually my opinions. Again, I'm not catching any feelings-- I'm glad that for the first time in months, there's a conversation that seems worth having in here.

Not one bit of graffiti? Sorry, that's ludicrous. I don't know how old you are, but it sounds like you don't have any memory of the art world prior to Twist's entry into it. That wall is drips, buff marks, spray paint, graffiti characters... literally NONE of that stuff was showing up in museums in 1990. People take those techniques and stylistic elements for granted now in a post Juxtapoz magazine, Saber-has-a-blog world, but Twist was the first to bring that aesthetic to the "art" world. Agreed, not graffiti. Is this what you were hoping for on the wall? The whole point of this stuff was to experiment with abstraction, and be visually jarring, confusing, or overwhelming to the viewer. It contributes to the sensory overload that Barry's always tried to create with his shows. But it's been done enough that it wouldn't have had that same impact on the Bowery wall. I'm glad he didn't just do another one of these. So because cluless bloggers all called this a Barry Mcgee wall, rather than a Twist wall, those tags aren't graffiti? Having a different opinion is not the same thing as "not being able to admit" that your opinion is right. I think this wall is one of the freshest ideas I've seen in a while. Fine, you think those dudes half-stepped. Make sure to let them know next time you see them, I'm sure they'll lose sleep over it. Better yet, go diss the wall if you don't respect it. That's what a REAL NEW YORKER would do, right?

Hate to tell you, nigga, but when you're coming on a website to discuss and criticize art...

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The wall is cool because it's in everyone's face. Os Gemeos are fucking rad, but they've been rocking a style for years that the public finds entirely non threatening, and doesn't really associate with graffiti. Shepard Fairey falls under a similar umbrella-- fifteen years ago, people were genuinely puzzled and even made uncomfortable by the huge faces he was putting up, but that's obviously changed in the past decade. That most recent mural seemed like it was there so Herbert and Elaine Outoftowner could drive by and say "hey, the Obama guy!" Twist, on the other hand, has been doing shit heavily based in graffiti all along, but has always done so with enough universal appeal that he's managed to create a fanbase in the art world. Now they offered him this wall, (which a lot of New Yorkers very much consider theirs, and a place they expect to see beautiful murals) and instead of trying to expand his fan base by doing the faces that everyone wants to see, he basically said "okay, this is what you get: pure, raw graffiti." Something that most people are still going to find somewhat threatening. Something people aren't going to be able to explain, or understand, or know what to do with. And it's right in their fucking faces, and that's awesome. /coolartanalysisbro

Ha, you got the mini-bat and everything.

Spread some rep before giving it to The Gooch...

I don't know if that's really wedding appropriate attire though.

Fuck, like it wasn't going to be bad enough that I had to be in Florida this weekend...

I worked at a couple of nerd conventions this year, and let me tell you, the booth babes are no joke. They're one of the top reasons these poindexters even get up the nerve to shoehorn themselves out of the basement and into a major urban center for a weekend.

If you want to talk irony, how about the fact that a white SUV hit a box truck and flipped over about a half a block up Houston while they were painting?

Really? I said that?

I went to college, but my heart was never really in it. I learned some cool shit, I heard a lot of boring shit that I didn't retain at all, and left one class short of graduating. Now I'm kicking ass in the real world. There are definite benefits to a college degree, but it's not the only way to succeed in this day and age.

Either one. Syke!

Props for not hitting 5K in a week like these 90's babies.

I'll bet it's mostly made up of Vanilla Ice cassettes.

1) It's beer 2) He has two hands