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Discussion in 'News' started by Salafi_Zahrah, Jul 24, 2005.

  1. Salafi_Zahrah

    Salafi_Zahrah Junior Member

    Joined: May 28, 2005 Messages: 100 Likes Received: 0
    'Rendition' Realities

    By David Ignatius
    Wednesday, March 9, 2005; Page A21

    Torture is immoral and illegal, and the refusal to allow cruel interrogation techniques is one measure of a civilized society. But this ironclad moral argument doesn't necessarily apply to the practice known as "extraordinary rendition."

    Rendition is the CIA's antiseptic term for its practice of sending captured terrorist suspects to other countries for interrogation. Because some of those countries torture prisoners -- and because some of the suspected terrorists "rendered" by the CIA say they were in fact tortured -- the debate has tended to lump rendition and torture together. The implication is that the CIA is sending people to Egypt, Jordan or other Middle Eastern countries because they can be tortured there and coerced into providing information they wouldn't give up otherwise.

    The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the CIA believes that torture works. But in 30 years of writing about intelligence, I've never encountered a spook who didn't realize that torture is usually counterproductive. Professional intelligence officers know that prisoners will confess to anything under intense pain. Information obtained through torture thus tends to be unreliable, in addition to being immoral.
    To read the rest

    60 Minutes video
  2. KaBar2

    KaBar2 Senior Member

    Joined: Jun 27, 2003 Messages: 2,130 Likes Received: 66
    I think that any method that is RELIABLE and EFFECTIVE is acceptable. The problem with interrogation techniques that involve permenant physical damage ("torture") is that they are not reliable, just as the article says. With modern drugs and psychological techniques, physical brutality should not be necessary, but one way or another, those detainees are going to tell us what they know.

    The sooner they do so, the sooner they will be on their way back to their home and family. The higher-ranking the detainee, the greater the pressure to be brought to bear. They will talk. Everybody talks. The only question is "When?"
  3. SF1

    SF1 Elite Member

    Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Messages: 4,866 Likes Received: 5
    I saw something on 60 minutes or something about some dude that was a Canadian citizen that was "rendered" by the US to Egypt to be tortured and it turned out he was a completly inoscent stand up kind of guy and only got hemmed up in the first place cause he looked like a camel jockey.
    Canada's realy pissed cause we violated international law by sending one of their citizens to Egypt to be tortured.
  4. !@#$%

    [email protected]#$% Moderator Crew

    Joined: Oct 1, 2002 Messages: 18,517 Likes Received: 623
    hmm, it couldn't only be the u.s. that condones the use of torture
    certainly no muslim countries would condone such brutality?

    let's look at amnesty international torture reports!

    25/07/2005 Iraq: In cold blood: abuses by armed groups (REPORTS)
    MDE 14/009/2005
    20/07/2005 UK: Jordan assurances not worth the paper they are written on (NEWS)
    EUR 45/025/2005
    17/07/2005 Uganda: Violence against women in Northern Uganda (REPORTS)
    AFR 59/001/2005
    14/07/2005 Syria: Further information on: Prisoners of conscience/incommunicado detention/fear of torture and ill-treatment (URGENT ACTIONS)
    MDE 24/049/2005
    14/07/2005 Iran: Further information on: Medical concern/Fear for safety/incommunicado detention, Akbar Ganji (URGENT ACTIONS)
    MDE 13/034/2005
    12/07/2005 Iran: Further information on: Fear for safety/medical concern, Nasser Zarafshan (URGENT ACTIONS)
    MDE 13/033/2005
    12/07/2005 Ecuador: Further information on: Fear for safety (URGENT ACTIONS)
    AMR 28/016/2005
    11/07/2005 Guatemala: Fear for safety/Death threats: Mario Antonio Godínez López (m), aged 37, human rights defender (URGENT ACTIONS)
    AMR 34/034/2005
    05/07/2005 Democratic Republic of Congo: arming the east (REPORTS)
    AFR 62/006/2005
    01/07/2005 USA: Who are the Guantánamo detainees? Case sheet 10: Chadian national: Mohamed C (REPORTS)
    AMR 51/110/2005
    30/06/2005 Israel/Occupied Territories: Israel - Briefing to the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (REPORTS)
    MDE 15/037/2005
    30/06/2005 Mexico: Fear for safety/ill-treatment/torture/threats, Bryan Torres (URGENT ACTIONS)
    AMR 41/022/2005
    30/06/2005 Turkmenistan: Appeal cases. Mukhametkuli Aymuradov and Gurbandurdy Durdykuliev: calling for prompt release (REPORTS)
    EUR 61/006/2005
    28/06/2005 Kyrgyzstan: Refugees in need of a safe haven (REPORTS)
    EUR 58/008/2005
    28/06/2005 China: People's Republic of China - Abolishing "Re-education through Labour". Appeal cases (REPORTS)
    ASA 17/014/2005
    27/06/2005 Burundi: Refugee Rights at Risk : Human Rights Abuses in Returns to and from Burundi (REPORTS)
    AFR 16/006/2005
    24/06/2005 Amnesty International launches campaign against torture in the 'war on terror' (NEWS)
    ACT 40/006/2005
    23/06/2005 Guatemala: Fear for safety/death threats, José Ernesto Menchú Tojib (URGENT ACTIONS)
    AMR 34/033/2005
    23/06/2005 Mongolia: Further information on: Medical/ Legal Concerns/ Prisoner of Conscience, Lodoisambuu Sanjaasuren (URGENT ACTIONS)
    ASA 30/002/2005
    23/06/2005 Yemen: Fear for safety/ Incommunicado detention/ Medical concern, Ibrahim al-Saiani (URGENT ACTIONS)
    MDE 31/010/2005
    22/06/2005 Morocco/Western Sahara: Justice must begin with torture inquiries (NEWS)
    MDE 29/003/2005
    22/06/2005 Nepal: Further information on: Possible "Disappearance"/Fear for safety/Fear of torture or ill-treatment (URGENT ACTIONS)
    ASA 31/055/2005
    21/06/2005 Guatemala: Further information on: Fear for safety/death threats, Armando Sánchez (URGENT ACTIONS)
    AMR 34/032/2005
    21/06/2005 Venezuela: Further information on: Fear for safety/Death threats (URGENT ACTIONS)
    AMR 53/004/2005
    21/06/2005 A twelve point action plan to stamp out torture in Brazil (REPORTS)
    AMR 19/025/2004
    20/06/2005 Italy: Temporary stay - Permanent rights: The treatment of foreign nationals detained in 'temporary stay and assistance centres' (CPTAs) (REPORTS)
    EUR 30/004/2005
    20/06/2005 Spain: The Southern Border. The State turns its back on the human rights of refugees and migrants (REPORTS)
    EUR 41/008/2005
    17/06/2005 Nepal: Possible "Disappearance"/Fear for safety/Fear of torture or ill-treatment (URGENT ACTIONS)
    ASA 31/053/2005
    16/06/2005 Myanmar: Myanmar's Political Prisoners: A Growing Legacy of Injustice (REPORTS)
    ASA 16/019/2005
    15/06/2005 Iran: Further information on:Fear for safety/medical concern, Nasser Zarafshan (URGENT ACTIONS)

    the CIA is really getting shat on these days.
    let's not forget there are plenty of people to get angry with

  5. Salafi_Zahrah

    Salafi_Zahrah Junior Member

    Joined: May 28, 2005 Messages: 100 Likes Received: 0
    The article speaks of CIA members taking terrorist suspects to other countries for interrogation that allow torture. Some of the countries are on the list you just posted.
  6. !@#$%

    [email protected]#$% Moderator Crew

    Joined: Oct 1, 2002 Messages: 18,517 Likes Received: 623
    governments are in this together for the most part.

    if torture wasn't condoned in those places, then it wouldn't be so easy for the CIA
    would it?
    many americans know torture is counter-productive, not to mention inhumane

    KING BLING Guest

    I don't get it...I operate under the assumption that these countries which torture suspects are bad. You seem to as well.

    So, this entire post is clearly about how messed up the practice is, and how it does nothing to contribute to info gathering...yet you argue against the people <seemingly on reflex> involved here to deflect from the agreement of our government with there actions. Of course this doesnt reflect Kabars ideas who seems to relish in human misery as long as it fits into the plot of a Steven Segal film....but I think we all were on the same page

    What was your point? The practice is bad? That these countries are not helpless pawns? The countries we use to gain the info are not as concerned with human rights? Yes it was implied, and the vast majority of the world is governed by criminsl minded politicians that we love. Well we and the British supported and support the not so elected governments there in the mid-east. So go Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan and Iraq up until the 90's and Afghanistan. I wonder why even the mods here seem so intent on argument yet so little on content...why doesn't popp man bob contribute here any more?

    These countries are ridiculous yet the CIA shaped them and the government of today counts them on our Ally list...

    We torture people and I shit on the CIA...
  8. !@#$%

    [email protected]#$% Moderator Crew

    Joined: Oct 1, 2002 Messages: 18,517 Likes Received: 623
    helpless pawns?
    no, i don't think that is the case.

    how the fuck is the kingodm of saudi arabia helpless pawns?
    did we not LEAVE saudi arabia?
    without changing it?
    like i said, these fucks are in this together
    pakistan has nukes and won't capture bin laden..yeah, they are really our pawns in all this

    my post isn't about how messed up torture is
    it's about how rampant the fucking practice is WORLDWIDE

    look at the amnesty international report.
    the united states is not controlling all those governments
    not all of them are our allies

    half the time i think conspiracy theorists are just naive.
    my point is that there is plenty of blame to go around.

    yes, we are all generally on the same page
    i don't condone the CIA or the government
    but many people on this board shit on the u.s. government constantly
    [like salafi, even though she probably lives in the u.s., is able to practice her religion freely, and is for the most part treated as equal, with many an oppurtunity available to her]

    POIESIS Member

    Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Messages: 879 Likes Received: 0
    the topic is the US practice of kidnapping and outsourcing torture.
    i know you've got no love for the govt symbols, but
    rendition is some pretty fucking serious shit and the US govt's behaviour in this
    case, or any other domestic or international case, should never be treated
    with kid gloves. i'm ignorant to the whole salafi/dawood versus others soap opera,
    so maybe you're just irked with the onslaught of their arguments.
    regardless, practically every subject in crossfire revolves heavily around
    US global behaviour..so maybe if the mind numbing hypocrisy subsided, this(hatin' the US govt) would change.
  10. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 147
  11. KaBar2

    KaBar2 Senior Member

    Joined: Jun 27, 2003 Messages: 2,130 Likes Received: 66
    Rendition is easy as shit to avoid. All one need do is refrain from involving oneself in terrorist activity. But, if you involve yourself in terrorist activity, best expect to get captured and sent to the ends of the earth to be interrogated by people who basically don't give a shit whether you live another ten minutes or not, unless you are telling them everything you know about whatever you were involved in.

    Human misery doesn't come into it at all. I don't wish anyone to be in misery. All people need to do to avoid being interrogated by Cyborgs is not break the law. But on the other hand, if people feel entitled to go around talking shit and trying to kill or injure American troops, or coalition troops, or Iraqi troops, they can just expect to be arrested and chained up like a dog to the cargo deck of a C-130 and shipped off to Eygpt or Cuba or somewhere to be squeezed for information by men who see you as absolutely nothing but an object.

    Detainees will talk. They will give up information, or they will be subjected to greater and greater pressure until they do so. They can try to be clever, and give up just little snippets of information, but ultimately, they will talk.

    I do not believe that terrorists have any right to resist interrogation or to not talk. As long as our soldiers are at risk, and the "insurgents" do not conduct warfare by the accepted civilized rules of war, they forfeit most consideration that the captured enemy combatants in uniform would be accorded. Depriving them of sleep is fair. Subjecting them to sensory deprivation, or sensory overload, is fair. Using drugs that reduce inhibition to talk, is fair. Using psychological techniques to induce embarrassment, shame, revulsion, etc. is fair. These people are trying to kill our soldiers, and short of interrogation techniques that actually result in death or permenant physical damage, pretty much anything is fair. I read that an Iraqi general was captured and died under interrogation that involved him being beaten while zipped up completely inside of a sleeping bag. That is not only not fair, but it wasn't effective either, because the sonofabitch died without telling our interrogators what we wanted to know. The U.S. interrogators that stupidly let a Baathist fascist general officer escape into death should be severely punished. His carelessness may have cost American soldiers their lives, because that dead general contained intelligence information that we wanted, but did not obtain. Had the general simply told us what we wanted to know, he would still be alive, and we would have the information that we wanted him to tell us. Essentially, he killed himself, and our interrogator should NOT have allowed him to do so, at least, not until he told us what we wanted to know.

    Prisoners scheduled for interrogation must understand that there is no alternative. They will be held indefinately, unless they cooperate, for years, if necessary, or even for the rest of their lives. They do not get the option to not talk, unless they wish to be subjected to ever-greater, relentless pressure for as long as is required to obtain their compliance. Detainess that try to kill themselves to escape would be prevented from doing so. Hunger strikers would be restrained and force fed with a tube. There is no avoiding it--either you talk, or the interrogation continues, presumably forever.

    Or, one could simply choose to live a normal, law-abiding life, and not participate in any terrorist activity, which is certainly the choice most sane, intelligent people would choose, and indeed, the path the vast majority of Iraqi citizens choose. Only the terrorists choose to engage in murderous, traitorous, "insurgent" behavior.
  12. SF1

    SF1 Elite Member

    Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Messages: 4,866 Likes Received: 5
  13. SF1

    SF1 Elite Member

    Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Messages: 4,866 Likes Received: 5
    Yo Kabar, maybe you missed this the first time around...

  14. KaBar2

    KaBar2 Senior Member

    Joined: Jun 27, 2003 Messages: 2,130 Likes Received: 66
    I didn't miss it. This guy was wandering around in Iraq, in the middle of a combat zone. He appeared to be a "foreign volunteer." That was a pretty big mistake on his part. He got scooped up and sent to be interrogated. The Egyptians have plenty of problems with Islamist jihadists themselves, and they are in no mood to fuck around with people they think are terrorists. They speak the language. Islam is their religion, too. They live in the Middle East. They intend to root out terrorism, root and branch. Our Iraqi-Canadian is damned lucky to have survived at all.

    Suggestion #1--Stay the fuck out of Iraq unless you have permission to be there.

    Suggestion#2--Do not associate with Muslim extremists. Do not contribute any money to their cause. Do not read their literature, or keep their propaganda at your home or business. In short, avoid any behavior that could be misinterpreted as support for the enemies of the United States or it's allies, including the government of Iraq.

    Suggestion#3--If you get arrested and interrogated, tell them the complete truth about everything immediately. DO NOT LIE. They will find out, and they will continue to interrogate you relentlessly until you tell them the truth. (Sometimes they already know a lot, but they don't tell the person being interrogated, just to see if he is lying to them or not.) Your chances of being released are greatly improved if the interrogators know you are being cooperative. If they think you are fucking around, you wind up getting sent to Egypt.
  15. SF1

    SF1 Elite Member

    Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Messages: 4,866 Likes Received: 5
    That's funny, we must be talking about 2 different people. The guy I was talking about got "scooped" at an American airport. :rolleyes:
    And it took being TORTURED in EGYPT to confirm that he actually WAS telling the truth the whole time!