Gaza and Gandhi.

[MayorMeanBeans]

So i just watched The Gaza Strip, a documentary about Gaza which is the frontlines of the war. Googlevideo it, its pretty interesting.

 

However, i started thinking some thoughts while watching it, and would appreciate some feedback:

 

1. The movie largely centered around the rockthrowers. In my opinion (of course i can't enter a child's head who lives in such anarchy), its sort of stupid to throw a rock at a tank. I wouldn't punch a UFC champion. When the kids get hurt (IMO, unjustifiably), they blame "the stinking jews". Alot of the kdis speak about their pops' beating the shit out of them when these kids get caught. All of them have friends who died doing it. Where does common sense take over and allow them to realize, that throwing rocks at tanks, while symbolic (these kids don't even know what that word means), is useless in terms of practicality?

 

2. Why haven't the Palestinians adopted a Gandhi-ist sort of plan? If it weren't for the rioting, the suiciders and rampant infighting between Hamas and Fatah, I think that it's pretty hard to argue that the occupation is morally justifiable. Imagine the walk on the salt mines that Gandhi led. If all the Gazans were to do the same thing on the road between West Bank and Gaza, NOT FIGHT BACK, wouldn't the world be like hold up, this is fucked? When they shoot rockets at families (no one cares that their families were rocketed first), they lose moral authority. Just drop it.

 

3. Going a little further with the peace campaign, Palestine enjoys media coverage unprecedentedly. One kid dies in Gaza, 800 die in the Congo- which gets the front page? It seems to me that the conditions are ripe for such a campaign. When they seize Israeli troops, the West can say, well look at this, ISrael gets the go-ahead. But when a mother only wants to visit her child in E. Jerusalem, and her skull gets stomped, how is Condi gonna play that one?

[russell jones]

To respond to 2., I always wondered that myself. Ghandi's plan was genius because it created inevitable sympathy for his cause around the world. I would venture to say that Ghandi's cult of personality made his plan possible to implement. With the right leader, the Palestinians could do it. But my question is, is their a cultural well of non-violent thinking in Palestine to draw from? Would people buy it? What would be the touch stone?

[Larry Pubes]

#2 would never work because the israeli establishment, backed by uncle sam, would never let it happen. somewhere along the way the mossad or whatever would figure it out, disrupt it or provoke some bullshit and there you have it. the reality is that it would never be allowed to happen. besides, the prospect of hundreds or thousands of regular ass palestinian moms, dads, uncles, bro's, sisters etc having to sacrifice even more just for the slim possibility it would work would be a hard sell. most of the planet supports an independent palestine anyhow, however here we are 30yrs into an illegal brutal occupation. there's definitely a cultural well of progressive, non-violent thinking, but when you live in squalor and get humiliated day in and day out i think frustration and rage sort of takes over ya know?

as for coverage, i don't see too many well written pieces on the plight of palestinians coming through the post or times. compared with the congo, sure, but..

[Juan Fuentes]

there are a lot of tools taking place in the expansion of israel,not only violence.

it will be smart to put some men on the enemy side that gives your enemy bad advices? its bad,but not for the cowards,and they have 1001 to hurt the palestinians,or anyone,now the easy fish is the palestinians but all non jews are gentiles,and have u read what they say about gentiles?

 

its not like infidels to muslims,because injustice to them is forbidden in the quran.

[Dawood]

it's worth mentioning here, is that the Palestinian issue is an Islaamic issue from the beginning (right through) to the end. However, the enemies of Islaam have strived immensely to distance it (this issue) from the Islaamic path and convey to the non-Arab Muslims that this is an Arab issue, and that it does not concern the non-Arabs. It appears they have succeeded in this to a certain extent. This is why I feel it is not possible to reach a solution regarding this issue unless it is deemed an Islaamic issue, and the Muslims support one another in salvation, and make jihaad against the Jews in an Islaamic manner, until such time the land (of the Palestinians) is returned to its (rightful Palestinian) owners. (In addition to) the trespassing Jews returning to their (own) lands where they came from, thereby leaving the true Jews to remain in their lands under the rule of Islaam, and not communism and nor secularism. Thereby, truth shall prevail and falsehood will be abandoned, and all rightful owners shall return to their lands under Islaamic rule, and not under any other (rule).

 

 

And Allaah is the Expounder of Success.

 

Shaykh Ibn Baaz

Majmoo' Fataawa wa Maqaalaat Mutanawwi'ah - Volume 1, Page 277

[russell jones]

Sooo Dawood. You're saying that Israel has no right to exist.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Well since this should apparently be an “Islaamic” issue instead of an Arab issue, Israel as a Jewish nation existed thousands of years before Islam was created. King David established Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel in 1000BC. Since then, the Jews have been exiled from Israel, expelled, or attempted to be exterminated by conquering Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, and eventually Romans who renamed the land 'Syria Palastina' to destroy their identity. Also 20 to 25% of Israel’s citizens today are Arabs. I’m not going to try to defend the (recent) forced displacement of Palestinians, but the situation is more complicated than “jews bad, palestinians good.”

 

Based on the media coverage I see of the Palestinian’s cause I would absolutely say they are media darlings, especially when compared to other fucked up situations around the world. A few months ago a house that was going to be bombed by the IDF was flooded with local women who acted as a human shield and prevented the bombing, this happened a few other times during the same period. The media had a field day with it so I think some similar type of non violent resistance would work and I don’t see any way the Israelis could disrupt or preempt it. But, the Palestinians can’t even unite, and the comments dawood made reflect how radicalized the Palestinians are today. A 2 state solution is the only hope for any stability, but they want to drive the Israelis into the sea and will not accept anything less. Now Hamas is saying they are going to resume suicide bombings on top of the rockets being poured into Israel, the Israelis will go into Gaza again, it never ends.

[MayorMeanBeans]

Dawood I see what you're saying regarding the distinction between an Islamic (is that a mispelling?) and a pan-Arabic struggle. Although I am not one of these people, alot of people say that what you're saying has been realized with the election of Hamas.

 

I think, however that it is instead a reaction to the corruption of Fatah compared to the social programs of Hamas, and not the public's support of an all-out Jihad to push the Jews back into the ocean (weird how both sides blame the other for "pushing us into the water").

 

I'm no scholar of religion, but I am pretty positive that Jihad is not necessarily violent, it is literally translated as struggle. Then, theoretically with Islam as a political mobilizer, it would be possible to have a Gandhian Jihad, no?

 

Gandhi message is genius IMO in the sense that it is always religious in the sense that it appeals to every religion's deepest moral convictions (Gandhi was supported by the Indian ulema, MLK used Christian notions of Gandhi, Nelson Mandela did it secularly, etc). Dawood if you want to call it Jihad that's fine with me. But why hasn't the realization of a non-violent Jihad that appeals to the world's morality taken place?

 

- I think the low-intensity jihad waged by unorganized sleeper cells has been ineffective, and consolidated international support for the "zionist regime" (the fact that that term is hollow to many who would otherwise be supporters of the palestinians implies a possibility of compromise).

[Dawood]

You're right, Mayor Menino, In my "american muslim" opinion, I think there should be a more organised effort to appeal to the international community on the part of the palestinians, but in all honesty, we're not them and we don't live in their conditions so it's very difficult for us, living outside of their everyday "struggle" to really say what they should do. We can give our shortsighted opinions on it , but our opinions are just that, shortsighted and lack the experience needed to make these determinations.

My last comments were actually the words of a well known Islamic scholar, not mine and what he said was that the trespassing Jews (newcomers i assume) who displaced the palestinians should go back to where they came from and the Jews who lived there previously should be allowed to stay, while living under the Islamic law . I know that's not going to be the official 12oz. popular opinion, but in my humble opinion justice and peace will never prevail in that area under the leadership of the Jews.

[Juan Fuentes]

Hamas uncovers PA, CIA intel trove

[MayorMeanBeans]

^ http://conflictsforum.org/2007/document-details-us-plan-to-sink-hamas/ check out this fuentes.

 

its along a similar line. and the document is actually available. unfortunately, the link you provided says something to the tune of "we have this document, and man would you be shocked if you saw it". considering the domestic struggle going on, i think it makes sense that hamas would say that to discredit fatah.

 

I dont think its a secret that the us/eu/israel is doing everything it can in order to deal with abbas other than hamas. im not sure if this is a good idea, i think an agreement is more likely with abbas, but im not sure if abbas holds the broad support of the people, who i believe view abbas as a puppet.

 

then again, the vast majority of palestinians want peace, are willing to accept a two state solution (a realistic concession); something that hamas has yet to accept. if hamas keeps struggling for an ideal that its people dont necessarily insist on, is that wrong? if palestinian civilians die, id say so.

 

one thing is for sure, whats going on there right now is fucking stupid. some people call it the mogadishu syndrome or whatever, the fact of the matter is that they are daily throwing their claims for justice into disrepute.

[MAR]

Gold Meir the PM of Israel once said," There will be peace once the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us"

 

Until that happens you can forget it.

 

Edit: but right now thats a non-issue.

[MayorMeanBeans]

fuentes you should be careful with that website. i looked at a couple other stories, and they're fairly inaccurate. for example:

 

http://infowars.net/articles/june2007/150607complicit.htm

 

US occupiers complicit in Sammara blast

Press TV

Friday June 15, 2007

Related: Iraqis Accuse U.S. Of Bombing Shrine

Related: U.S. official: Samarra attack may have been inside job

The Leader of the Islamic Revolution has said the bombing of the holy Shia shrines in Samarra is aimed at provoking sectarian violence.

In a message on the recent bombing of the shrines of the two revered Shia Imams in the Iraqi town of Samarra, Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei blamed the intelligence services of the Zionist regime and the occupation forces in Iraq for the bombing, saying such terrorist acts are meant to intensify sectarian violence in the Muslim world.

The Leader urged the Muslims particularly the Iraqi people to remain vigilant in the face of the plots hatched to create sectarian strife between Shias and Sunnis.

He noted the holy shrines of the two revered Shia Imams in the Sunni town of Samarra, had been respected throughout history, whereas the recent event marks the second desecration of these holy sites since the invasion of Iraq by foreign troops.

 

So that's his article. I regularly frequent the blog of Juan Cole, who is widely respected as one of the preeminent scholars on Iraq. These were his reactions:

 

An Iranian embassy official in Baghdad admitted that the Samarra attack was probably the work of the Iraqi Baath Party. Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad had blamed the US, while the US fingered "al-Qaeda." The Baathists are the best candidate. Samarra is a Sunni Arab city with a strong Baath cell, and the Baathists are secularists who have a history of being willing to shell religious edifices for political reasons (e.g. attacks on Najaf in spring 1991). My readers who like conspiracy theorists should pay attention to this story; an Iranian observer in Baghdad would likely have some intelligence on this matter. In the first Sawt al-Iraq story cited above, Iraqi Sunni vice president Tariq al-Hashimi also implicitly blamed the Baathists ( http://www.juancole.com/ ).

 

Iran's Supreme Jurisprudent,Ali Khamenei, managed to blame the Iraqi Baath Party, the Wahhabi sect of Islam, the Salafi Jihadi radicals among Sunnis, and the United States, jointly for the blowing up of the minarets at the al-Askariya Shrine in Samarra. The shrine is among the holiest sites for the Shiite branch of Islam. Iran is the largest Shiite country, with 90% or so of its 70 million people adhering to it. Khamenei is both the head of the Iranian state and the head of Iranian Shiism, and is recognized as authoritative by some Shiites outside Iran, especially the Hizbullah Party of south Lebanon. Most non-Iranian Shiites follow instead Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani of Najaf, who has called for calm. But Khamenei has a big megaphone among Shiites. His laying of responsibility for the bombing at the feet of the US will increase anti-American hatred in the Shiite world. Khamenei's heated and irrational rhetoric, positing a vast conspiracy among various groups that hate one another, is typical of the hardliners in Iran, but it is my impression that in recent months he has tended to leave the wilder talk to his rival Ayatollah Misbah Yazdi and his protege, Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad. I don't think Khamenei's remarks on this matter are a good sign."

 

It's not so simple as to entitle their article "US complicit in attack."

 

Mayor "Better journalism oner" Menino.

[banana fish]

#1

 

I dont think its relization that throwing rocks while symbolic is impractical. I think its so far gone that its just become mundane. There they have cartoon shows about it, and old mc donald kinda songs for it as well its become now apart of growing up for these children. It in all means to me is wrong. To teach kids so much hate on something i am sure they cannot fully understand just corrupts the way they will think about it when they are adults and could come to a better understanding of the situation and a better solution to the problem other than having kids throw rocks at the tanks. I dunno to me only hate can drive from hate and i dont see any light at the end of this situation until someone who lives there and has actually experienced it can influence people otherwise. Its sad to see though kids singing songs like twinkle twinkle little star but it being about killing someone and them sacraficing their lives for something someone else told them was a greater good.

[emook]

[MayorMeanBeans]

banana^ i agree with you, the socialization process is crazy. but i recommend seeing this movie. often enough, these kids are less than 100% products of their environment. They know what they're getting themselves into. It isn't like they celebrate when their 12 y o friend gets capped.

 

In terms of needing someone from within to change the situation, i also totally agree. As an American, I will never know that sense of desperation or hopelessness, where you're leaders won't hesitate to completely act against your own interests, to have children who are willing to kill themselves so that their parents get the suicide bomber subsidy from saddam (saddam gave 10,000 dollars to every family who's son/daughter had gone the heaven route, and this was what started the israeli retaliation of bulldozing houses).

 

Look at the situation right now. Abbas just dissolved Hamas' role in the govt. Hamas CONTROLS Gaza. So who is really in control? Only guns and time and death will tell. Remember the hope when Arafat first passed away?

 

All this is so sad.

[stunt double]

#1

 

I dont think its relization that throwing rocks while symbolic is impractical. I think its so far gone that its just become mundane. There they have cartoon shows about it, and old mc donald kinda songs for it as well its become now apart of growing up for these children. It in all means to me is wrong. To teach kids so much hate on something i am sure they cannot fully understand just corrupts the way they will think about it when they are adults and could come to a better understanding of the situation and a better solution to the problem other than having kids throw rocks at the tanks. I dunno to me only hate can drive from hate and i dont see any light at the end of this situation until someone who lives there and has actually experienced it can influence people otherwise. Its sad to see though kids singing songs like twinkle twinkle little star but it being about killing someone and them sacraficing their lives for something someone else told them was a greater good.

 

i see what you are saying, but until you grow up in a refugee camp in a warzone under the control of a hostile occupying force you wont really understand where the mindset of a palestinian youth comes from. if i had grown up seeing such fucked up shit, that has happened for generations, then i would really have a hard time applying some mentality of "love and peace" to my worldview.

 

i am not really coherent in what i am trying to say... read some stuff by edward said, he says it betterhttp://www.edwardsaid.org/

[banana fish]

i see what you are saying, but until you grow up in a refugee camp in a warzone under the control of a hostile occupying force you wont really understand where the mindset of a palestinian youth comes from. if i had grown up seeing such fucked up shit, that has happened for generations, then i would really have a hard time applying some mentality of "love and peace" to my worldview.

 

i am not really coherent in what i am trying to say... read some stuff by edward said, he says it betterhttp://www.edwardsaid.org/

 

I totally agree with you. I could never understand what those kids go through. But I just cant imagine raising kids to hate something so much and any progress ever be made. Its just really sad how I guess in a sense Propaganda and the tragedies of war has run their lives and I think we have to look at it on a much more smaller scale and stop looking at the gov't and more so the people that live there and actaully go through it everyday ya know. I think that if there is any change in the way they throw their rocks it will come from there and not from any political figure.

[MAR]

i see what you are saying, but until you grow up in a refugee camp in a warzone under the control of a hostile occupying force you wont really understand where the mindset of a palestinian youth comes from. if i had grown up seeing such fucked up shit, that has happened for generations, then i would really have a hard time applying some mentality of "love and peace" to my worldview.

 

Its strange to me what people think the palestinian life is like in israel... The refuge camps you refer to are not tents and such, but rather cities and actual homes and apartments, as aposed to jordan, syria, and lebonan.

 

The areas people lived in, until the in-fighting started, was hardly a warzone in the truest sense of the word.

 

The palestinian people recieve the most financial aid of any people per capita. In 2006 they recieved 1.2 billion dollars, but most of that money went into high ranking palestinian officials pockets not to the people, and of course, as usual, the problems in the teritories was blamed on the jews (which is ironic because Israel provides some of the money they recieve).

 

The mindset is a product of brainwashing that happens on television, in school, and in their places of worship. From a young age a large group of these children are taught to hate.

 

Frankly, the situation is well beyond what the scope of the media and I have trouble understanding why their cause is "so valiant" when I could name a bunch of other countries in which the situations are 1000x worse and thier problems are more legitimate.

[MayorMeanBeans]

^Mar I see what youre saying, but it is far too simplistic a view.

 

The Palestinians recognized the corruption of their govt. Why do you think they turned around and rompted Fatah, in favor of Hamas, in the first place? Here the tragedy: not for their foreign policy. Oh no, they were elected for their honesty and their community service programs. And we get mad for them trying to route out corruption? I am not saying its wrong for us to reject Hamas' foreign policy. Instead, I am saying we need to recognize, as you do, the true reasons why Hamas was elected in the first place.

 

Additionally, for you to say that the refugee camps are pretty much cities, again, I simplistically agree. But what would we say if the same Palestinian family waited three generations to turn their tents into cinder block blocks? Because thats what were talking about, we are talking about cinder blocks that have the blessing of mud to keep the structures together. Or the blesssing of Israeli concrete, either way, no functioning economic development.

 

"Frankly, the situation is well beyond what the scope of the media and I have trouble understanding why their cause is "so valiant" when I could name a bunch of other countries in which the situations are 1000x worse and thier problems are more legitimate."

 

Here is where i have to stop you. I know what you're referencing. Were not talking about bickering. Were talking about a classic political trick, to make your cause more worthy than it is. The history of the region makes it important. Don't deny it, or your people wouldn't have chosen the region as THE homeland. You can't have it both ways. The fact of the matter is, 1 Israeli is more important than 800 Congolese. Thank AIPAC.

[stunt double]

Its strange to me what people think the palestinian life is like in israel... The refuge camps you refer to are not tents and such, but rather cities and actual homes and apartments, as aposed to jordan, syria, and lebonan.

 

The areas people lived in, until the in-fighting started, was hardly a warzone in the truest sense of the word.

 

The palestinian people recieve the most financial aid of any people per capita. In 2006 they recieved 1.2 billion dollars, but most of that money went into high ranking palestinian officials pockets not to the people, and of course, as usual, the problems in the teritories was blamed on the jews (which is ironic because Israel provides some of the money they recieve).

 

The mindset is a product of brainwashing that happens on television, in school, and in their places of worship. From a young age a large group of these children are taught to hate.

 

Frankly, the situation is well beyond what the scope of the media and I have trouble understanding why their cause is "so valiant" when I could name a bunch of other countries in which the situations are 1000x worse and thier problems are more legitimate.

 

 

i understand that they arent tents and such, but they are still the areas that people who have had their land stolen by israel have been forced to relocate to. these refugee camps are surrounded by armed soldiers, fences walls and tanks, and can refuse free passage to a palestinian person, even within their own country.

 

israel uses the same manifest destiny ideology that the nazi's used to justify the oppression of an entire people. It is illegal for a palestinian to own land in israel, much like it was illegal for a jewish person to own land in germany in the 1930s. yet any jewish person in the world can move to israel and buy land, it is also illegal for a palestinian to marry an israeli and take up israeli citizenship... these racist laws are to ensure that wealth, power and land stays with jewish israelis, the minority. israel is entirely dependent on the exploitation of palestinian labour, so they bring in these laws to ensure that palestinians have no power or agency to create peaceful change, this elimination of rights as soon as a palestinian enters israel ia very similar to the policy of "homelands" used by south africa during apartheid.

 

the mindset doesn't come down to just "brainwashing" you cant see that under the circumstances, the palestinian people at large, would have a bone to pick with the hostile military force that invaded them?

[unknown_urge]

Check out the movie "Promises" checked it out for a Sociology class... it was pretty good... about Palestinians and Israelis... and their kids... weird but really interesting and worth the watch

[MAR]

i understand that they arent tents and such, but they are still the areas that people who have had their land stolen by israel have been forced to relocate to. these refugee camps are surrounded by armed soldiers, fences walls and tanks, and can refuse free passage to a palestinian person, even within their own country.

 

I dont really want to get into this but if you look at history the land was hardly "stolen". It was owned by the jews, then romans, then turks, then british, and then divided up into two states which became one, after the palestinians and other arab countries attacked Israel, to "wipe it off the map", and lost in 45, 56, 67, and 73.

 

israel uses the same manifest destiny ideology that the nazi's used to justify the oppression of an entire people. It is illegal for a palestinian to own land in israel, much like it was illegal for a jewish person to own land in germany in the 1930s.

I resent the fact the people like to compair israel and nazi germany. Its so different. But if you want to talk about nazi's and israel we can talk about the treaty between hitler and the palestinians....true story.

 

First off, there are palestinians in israel that own land, not only do they own land, they run businesses, and vote. These people are legal citizens of the country and just like in the united states and most everywhere else illegal aliens have little rights within the country.

 

yet any jewish person in the world can move to israel and buy land, it is also illegal for a palestinian to marry an israeli and take up israeli citizenship... these racist laws are to ensure that wealth, power and land stays with jewish israelis, the minority.

The laws for jews where instituted bc its a jewish state, just like you cant waltz into russia and demand citizenship and a russian can...

 

I agree on some level there are some laws that seem racist...the new marriage laws for example.

 

israel is entirely dependent on the exploitation of palestinian labour, so they bring in these laws to ensure that palestinians have no power or agency to create peaceful change, this elimination of rights as soon as a palestinian enters israel ia very similar to the policy of "homelands" used by south africa during apartheid.

Israel does not depend on palestian labor. They happen to use it, but if the palestinians where to disapear the state would hardly be in chaos.

 

What boggles my mind is never in history has a warring nation allowed its "enemy" to work within its borders. Not to mention provides them WITH FINANCAIL AID! Thats unheard of..

 

If you really are concerned about the palestinian people you should look into how the arab nations treat them, some of thier camps are tents, not to mention they quality of life is inhuman. In my mind, Israel treats them the best when one could argue that they have more reason not to. I also recogmend that you read both sides of the argument. I have found that its hard to get a full perspective of whats going on if you just read your oppinion. Ive been doing it and its helped me gain new perspective.

[stunt double]

hey mar, thanks for the response....

 

i compare israel and nazi germany on the level of the ideological basis of their invasion of foreign land, they both adopted notions of "manifest destiny" to justify some form of entitlement to land that they invaded. you stated this implicitly in your first paragraph when you stated that the land was originally jewish land, this is rationale used to justify the settlers' occupation of palestinian land and displacement of palestinians.

 

the idea that palestine and israel are warring nations is a tentative one, as much of the world doesn't recognise palestine's sovereignty... israel's national army uses tanks and could wipe palestine off the map, whereas palestinian militant factions uses homemade explosives. there is no declared war between two sovereign national armies.

 

the use of palestinian labour is integral for the industry of israel, without that they depend entirely on US financial aid and money coming in from overseas, hardly a sustainable form of revenue... exploiting cheaper labour and denying them rights is a key feature in israel's industrialisation, allowing them to maximise profits... i compared this to the policy of "homelands" in south africa, where white afrikaners were a minority, and relied on exploiting black labour. black south africans were given work permits, but as soon as they left the townships designated as "homelands" or "bantustans" they forefeited all rights.

 

if you are talking about how badly arab states treat palestine, just think about why are they living in refugee camps with inhuman quality of life... this is a direct effect of israeli occupation.

 

just because we have different points of view, dont assume that i don't read enough. i have read both sides of the argument, and have come to the conclusion that israel is the hostile state in the middle east... morally, i find it really hard to accept and agree with the point of view put forward by an occupying power.

[WORDISM45]

Jews have been opressed theroughout history. Zionism was conceived because of the pogroms that were constantly occuring throughout europe against them. It escalated directly after ww2 because they were slaughtered on an industrial scale. even countries like poland that were hostiel to Nazi Germany took an active role in giving up Jews because Poles had already been oppressing them for hundreds of years before the Nazis came along, they loved the idea of a final solution.

 

I think the only problem with what you're saying is that you're discounting any right jewish people have to a homeland. Europe made it blatantly obvious that they considered jews as second class citizens so the jews needed to establish a place for themselves where they could be secure, sovereign, and enjoy full citizenship without racism or opression.

 

Now i'm hardly in favour of anythign israel has doen as a state for abotu the last 50 years however i firmly believe in a 2 state solution.

[MAR]

hey mar, thanks for the response....

 

i compare israel and nazi germany on the level of the ideological basis of their invasion of foreign land, they both adopted notions of "manifest destiny" to justify some form of entitlement to land that they invaded. you stated this implicitly in your first paragraph when you stated that the land was originally jewish land, this is rationale used to justify the settlers' occupation of palestinian land and displacement of palestinians.

Are you denying the legitamacy of a jewish claim to the land? If you are you are denying not only archeology but the fact that there has always been a jewish presence within the country.

 

But wait a second...how about the jewish treatment within the arab states?

 

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Lybia, Egypt, Syria and Yemen. This cause Jews to flee from thier homes within these countries to Israel only premited to take the shirts on thier backs.

 

In 1947 The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."

 

Just a little sample: In 1948 there where 150,000 jews in Iraq, In 2004 that number dropped to 35.

 

In 1949: 104,000 Jews where smuggled out in operation Ezra & Nechemia and an additional 20,000 where smuggled out via Iran.

 

In 63 the gov't forbad the sale of property and forced all the remaining jews the carry yellow identity cards.

 

In 67 all land was taken, bank accounts frozen, a group of jews where accused of spying and hanged.

 

Over 200 million dollars worth of property was stolen by the Iraqi gov't alone.

 

This kind of treatment was not uncommon in the other arab countries. Thankfully, in recent years, the open hostility has become less frequent but there are still many laws that persecute Jews.

 

the idea that palestine and israel are warring nations is a tentative one, as much of the world doesn't recognise palestine's sovereignty... israel's national army uses tanks and could wipe palestine off the map, whereas palestinian militant factions uses homemade explosives. there is no declared war between two sovereign national armies.

Not so true. The Hamas doctrine explicitly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel. Fatah's has links to the PLO, its founders happen to be the same person, Yassir Arafat, who intentions where hardly peaceful...

 

*The palestinians have been smuggling in weapons from egypt through their elaborate tunnel systems, but granted still Israel could easily wipe them off the map.

 

the use of palestinian labour is integral for the industry of israel, without that they depend entirely on US financial aid and money coming in from overseas, hardly a sustainable form of revenue... exploiting cheaper labour and denying them rights is a key feature in israel's industrialisation, allowing them to maximise profits... i compared this to the policy of "homelands" in south africa, where white afrikaners were a minority, and relied on exploiting black labour. black south africans were given work permits, but as soon as they left the townships designated as "homelands" or "bantustans" they forefeited all rights.

Israel has a strong economy. They are major computer, biomedical, electronics and one of the leading software developers. They also have a strong diamond cutting industry, and export alot of produce to europe. Not to mention that financial aid (120 million per yr.) you refered to only makes up 0.07% of their gross domestic product.

 

if you are talking about how badly arab states treat palestine, just think about why are they living in refugee camps with inhuman quality of life... this is a direct effect of israeli occupation.

Ive heard this excuse many times. But thats all it is an excuse, because when you get down to it, the same basic human rights that the arab world is so up in arms about in Israel is the same basic rights they are denying within thier own countries. Talk about a double standard.

 

just because we have different points of view, dont assume that i don't read enough. i have read both sides of the argument, and have come to the conclusion that israel is the hostile state in the middle east... morally, i find it really hard to accept and agree with the point of view put forward by an occupying power.

Fine.