Sharia law... religion gone wrong.

[fermentor666]

Islam is a mercy to mankind because when practiced correctly, (and you don't see that these days much) It guides mankind to upright and moral character that protects society from themselves. You think it is terrible to stone a woman (or a man) for cheating on their spouse well, I think it is terrible to cheat on your spouse and create a sick society of people who have no boundaries, have all types of promiscuous sex and have children in broken homes who end immoral and worse off than their parents.

 

The punishment is not the goal. The goal is to give people something to think about before they have some fling on the side and destroy the society because of their low desires.

 

True, corruption in govt. is going to exist especially when there are non god fearing tribal leaders running countries, but you can't condemn a whole religion because of corrupt individuals.

 

Any one of us can bear witness to the fact that our desires for money, fame and sex (us being men) is the main source for our downfall eventully. If you don't think so, then someday you will.

No that money and sex is a bad thing , just that as humans we need guidelines for proper behavior. And also, we need laws to govern our societies. You may not agree with the punishment involved simply because you may not see anything wrong with having sex with prostitutes for example, but you have to remember that you don't make the laws, God does and whether you follow them or not is up to you. You are still subject to them and you will be judged accordingly whether you take that seriously or not is up to you also.

 

The problem with freedom, as propogated by america and the west is that you are free to destroy yourself wheras you think stoning an adulterer is harsh, I think it is a mercy for the next person who thinks about having an illegal relationship and doesn't because he remembers the punishment and reflects on the sin he is commiting and the harm he is doing to his family , his faith, the woman and the society at large.

 

I'm sure this mindset is foreign to most of you here , but that's the deal.

 

 

 

 

I knew already that you felt cheating on a spouse and prostitution is not right. You should know that I agree with you on this, and I don't think that a people should just run around cheating on their spouses, paying for sex, and generally fucking everything that moves. It's not a question of whether or not I think it's wrong or that "cheating on your spouse" (prostitution, etc) should be included in scripture. Scripture is meant as a guide for human life and to further a peaceful society, at best. You know my feelings on the existence of God, but I'm not bringing that into this comment. I find no fault in decrying adultery within scripture and if there is a God I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

What I find fault with is setting such a horrible, inhuman punishment into stone. Because I disagree with stoning a person to death or publicly hanging them in stadiums, does not mean that I think they should never face any sort of repercussions!! Dawood, I know it's in the holy book that you live by, but you don't ever disagree with anything in the book? I'm not talking about the rule, I'm talking about the punishment! Can you imagine being buried up to your neck and having people throw stones at you until you died? How can you think that adultry is justification for this abomination? What's even worse is when I see pictures or watch videos of this and I can see the smiles on the faces of the men and children that are hurling these rocks! If your daughter grew up, married, and then cheated on her husband, would you feel nothing but assurance if she were stoned to death? I generally think that you tell us how it is written in the book because you are relaying facts to us and that you, yourself, would not agree with stoning 16-year-old girls to death. But I'm not sure, I hope you don't actually think this is ok. And of course, I am mentioning your daughter only in a detached, metaphorical light and I would never think anything but the best for your family.

[russell jones]

Jesus said it best, "Let those among you who have not sinned throw the first stone."

[fermentor666]

Do unto others what has been done to you - Don't stone people unless you would get stoned, yourself. /nopot

 

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth - Adultry != stoning.

[russell jones]

If you commit adultry then I get to fuck your sister! Problem solved.

[Dawood]

I knew already that you felt cheating on a spouse and prostitution is not right. You should know that I agree with you on this, and I don't think that a people should just run around cheating on their spouses, paying for sex, and generally fucking everything that moves. It's not a question of whether or not I think it's wrong or that "cheating on your spouse" (prostitution, etc) should be included in scripture. Scripture is meant as a guide for human life and to further a peaceful society, at best. You know my feelings on the existence of God, but I'm not bringing that into this comment. I find no fault in decrying adultery within scripture and if there is a God I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

What I find fault with is setting such a horrible, inhuman punishment into stone. Because I disagree with stoning a person to death or publicly hanging them in stadiums, does not mean that I think they should never face any sort of repercussions!! Dawood, I know it's in the holy book that you live by, but you don't ever disagree with anything in the book? I'm not talking about the rule, I'm talking about the punishment! Can you imagine being buried up to your neck and having people throw stones at you until you died? How can you think that adultry is justification for this abomination? What's even worse is when I see pictures or watch videos of this and I can see the smiles on the faces of the men and children that are hurling these rocks! If your daughter grew up, married, and then cheated on her husband, would you feel nothing but assurance if she were stoned to death? I generally think that you tell us how it is written in the book because you are relaying facts to us and that you, yourself, would not agree with stoning 16-year-old girls to death. But I'm not sure, I hope you don't actually think this is ok. And of course, I am mentioning your daughter only in a detached, metaphorical light and I would never think anything but the best for your family.

 

This statement was worded very well. I think you chose very good examples to get your point across. I just wanted to say that. If you want to know what I think, I'll tell you for sure I think stoning someone to death is horrible. It's something that I don't think I'd ever want to witness (although I'm planning to go to saudi Arabia soon) I'm sure if I ever witnessed something like that I'd be a different dude, maybe I'd be more God-fearing than I am, who knows.

When I say it's horrible , I'm not saying that I disagree with it because I think the consequence for having no punishment is worse than the punishment itself.

As for the people smiling while stoning people, then that's plain wrong and mean.

There was a man during the time of the prophet who was a drunk who got the punishment of public drunken-ness (which is a beating) and one of the people cursed him while they were beating him and the prophet said, "do not curse your brother because he loves Allah and his messenger". I can't imagine my daughter (when she grows up and gets married) cheating on her husband and getting stoned. Of course I would try to stop it. But under the proper conditions (like having 4 trustworthy witnesses) The law is the law and I don't disagree with it.

[El Mamerro]

the punishment of public drunken-ness (which is a beating)

 

Pretty much the same as the US.

[LIVERWURST*]

A 16 year old got killed for the crime of being raped. You should keep on arguing, it's really important...

[fermentor666]

Are you using the sarcasm, there?

[LIVERWURST*]

I would never use sarcasm...oh wait.

 

It's important that a bunch of shitty writers go off on a tangent. These types of threads, like the picture thread, could be about images and info that is hard to come by. Dawood could step up and offer a simple few quotes with the heading "lets not make this about me, but here is what Allah can contribute" and offer verses that he feels are relevant but don't create his God through his personal interpretation. Others could not say anything at all and we'd be better for it. Some with good ideas would back away from the same argument they had 2 threads ago and offer something specific and without insult. Others could add articles about the recent case of Steven Green http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/09/soldiers.charged/index.html as an indicator of the neutrality of mans impulse toward control and destruction of actual values in the hands of unchecked control - be it military or quasi-Democratic government. And the few people willing to argue specific points, or willing to challenge assumptions would garner applause and change the discourse at hand - but they won't.

 

We could do a lot of things, but few here step up with something to say that's worth saying. This thread is why Crossfire is a joke....but I got a beer and The Economist on my deck chair.

[fermentor666]

Yeah, well, fuckin' leave if you don't like it. There's nothing wrong with discourse between ourselves on personal opinions and beliefs and what seems like a tangent to you might be personal clarification to others. The world's problems aren't going to be solved by hotlinking pictures and articles, but in case you have noticed there is plenty of that going around on Crossfire. And you're the one going off on a tangent here, the rest of us are talking about the topic at hand.

[Larry Pubes]

a little sanctimonious, but hey...that's what crossfire is about more often than not.

i personally wish kingbling was up in crossfire a little more. some people do pay attention, even if it doesn't result in spectacular 'discourse'.

[Dawood]

sanctimonious:

an adjective occaisionally used within the excrementially saturated walls of crossfire, Feigning piety or righteousness: “a solemn, unsmiling, sanctimonious old iceberg that looked like he was waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity” (Mark Twain).

[Smart]

maybe I'd be more God-fearing than I am' date=' who knows.[/quote']

 

Not me... but DEFINATELY more fearful of Islamic mobs bearing stones...

 

Anybody read The Lottery by Shirley Jackson? Of course you did. Remember at the end when they did it even though they didn't have to? I think Sharia law is a bit like that. There's a short film that was done in the late 70's (I think) of The Lottery which is awesome too but I only saw it once and I don't know too much about it.

[russell jones]

Not me... but DEFINATELY more fearful of Islamic mobs bearing stones...

 

Anybody read The Lottery by Shirley Jackson? Of course you did. Remember at the end when they did it even though they didn't have to? I think Sharia law is a bit like that. There's a short film that was done in the late 70's (I think) of The Lottery which is awesome too but I only saw it once and I don't know too much about it.

 

I don't agree, since it seems that people around the world are imposing Sharia law where it did not exist before. That was the case in Nigeria a few years ago, now it is the case in Indonesia. http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/fears-moral-vigilantes-taking-over-sharia-law/2006/08/01/1154198139825.html

 

In the Lottery, they did it that way because it was always that way, and they did not know any different. With Sharia law in many parts of the world they are imposing it by choice.

[Dawood]

shariah is usually the choice of the people like in Algeria when they voted and like 95% of the country wanted shariah and the Algerian secular govt. started killing muslims t remain in power even after the vote.

[fermentor666]

95%? Are you sure about that?

[fermentor666]

I just have trouble believing that in a country that practices universal suffrage--where every adult has the right to vote--would have nearly all the women vote for an enforced religious state that would strip them of numorous rights and respects.

 

Wikipedia, of course:

 

"The Algerian Civil War was an armed conflict between the Algerian government and various Islamist rebel groups which began in 1991. It is estimated to have cost over 200,000 lives. The conflict effectively ended with a government victory, following the surrender of the Islamic Salvation Army and the 2002 defeat of the Armed Islamic Group. However, low-level fighting still continues in some areas.

 

The conflict began in December 1991, when the government cancelled elections after the first round results had shown that the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) party would win, citing fears that the FIS would end democracy. After the FIS was banned and thousands of its members arrested, Islamist guerrillas rapidly emerged and began an armed campaign against the government and its supporters. They formed themselves into several armed groups, principally the Islamic Armed Movement (MIA), based in the mountains, and the Armed Islamic Group (GIA), based in the towns. The guerrillas initially targeted the army and police, but some groups soon started attacking civilians. In 1994, as negotiations between the government and the FIS's imprisoned leadership reached their height, the GIA declared war on the FIS and its supporters, while the MIA and various smaller groups regrouped, becoming the FIS-loyalist Islamic Salvation Army (AIS).

 

Soon after, the talks collapsed, and new elections were held—won by the army's candidate, General Liamine Zéroual. Conflict between the GIA and AIS intensified. Over the next few years, the GIA began a series of massacres targeting entire neighborhoods or villages; some evidence also suggests the involvement of government forces. These massacres peaked in 1997 around the parliamentary elections, which were won by a newly created pro-Army party, the National Democratic Rally (RND). The AIS, under attack from both sides, opted for a unilateral ceasefire with the government in 1997, while the GIA was torn apart by splits as various subdivisions objected to its new massacre policy. In 1999, following the election of a new president, Abdelaziz Bouteflika, a new law gave amnesty to most guerrillas, motivating large numbers to "repent" (as it was termed) and return to normal life. The violence declined substantially, with effective victory for the government. The remnants of the GIA proper were hunted down over the next two years, and had practically disappeared by 2002.

 

However, a splinter group of the GIA, the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), initially based on the fringes of Kabylie, had formed in 1998, dissociating itself from the massacres. Mainly (though not exclusively) targeting army and police, it rejected the amnesty and has continued to fight, although many individual members have surrendered. While, as of 2006, its comparatively sparse activities - mainly in mountainous parts of the east - are the only remaining fighting in Algeria, a complete end to the violence is not yet in sight."

[Dawood]

I just have trouble believing that in a country that practices universal suffrage--where every adult has the right to vote--would have nearly all the women vote for an enforced religious state that would strip them of numorous rights and respects.

 

 

 

just the fact that you said that shariah would strip them of numorous rights and respects shows that you don't understand the shariah. Islam actually came to the arabs during the time of the prophet Muhammad and restored womens rights. I'll post an article with examples because It's faster to copy and paste it than to research it in one of my books and type it out.

[Dawood]

The Muslim Woman: Her Status in the Ummah

 

 

By Shaykh ‘Abdul ‘Azeez Ibn Baaz (d.1420H) (rahimahullaah) [1]

 

 

 

 

 

The status of the Muslim woman in Islaam is a very noble and lofty one, and her effect is very great in the life of every Muslim. Indeed the Muslim woman is the initial teacher in building a righteous society, providing she follows the guidance from the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam). Since adherence to the Qur`aan and the Sunnah distances every Muslim – male or female – from being misguided in any matter. The misguidance that the various nations suffer from, and their being deviated does not come about except by being far away from the path of Allaah – the Most Perfect, the Most High – and from what His Prophets and Messngers - may Allaah’s Peace and Prayers be upon them all – came with. The Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said:

 

"I am leaving behind you two matters, you will not go astray as long as you cling to them both, the Book of Allaah and my Sunnah." [2]

 

The great importance of the Muslim woman’s role – whether as wife, sister, or daughter, and the rights that are due to her and the rights that are due from her – have been explained in the noble Qur`aan, and further detailed of this have been explained in the purified Sunnah.

 

The secret of her importance lies in the tremendous burden and responsibility that is placed upon her, and the difficulties she has to shoulder – responsibilities and difficilties some of which not even a man bears. This is why from the most important obligations upon a person is to show gratitude to the mother, and kindness and good companionship with her. And in this matter, she is to be given precedence over and above the father. Allaah the Exalted says:

 

"And We have enjoined upon man to be good and dutiful to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness upon weakness and hardship upon hardship, and his weaning is in two years. Show gratitude and thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination." [soorah Luqmaan 31:14]

 

Allaah the Exalted said:

 

"And We have enjoined upon man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship, and she brings him forth with hardship. And the bearing and weaning of him is thirty months." [sooratul Ahqaaf 41:15]

 

A man came to the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and said: "O Messenger of Allaah! Who from amongst mankind warrents the best companionship from me?" He replied:

 

"Your mother."

 

The man asked, "Then who?" So he replied:

 

"Your mother."

 

The man then asked, "Then who?" So the Prophet replied again:

 

"Your mother."

 

Then the man asked, "Then who?" So he replied:

 

"Your father." [3]

 

So this necessitates that the mother is given three times the likes of kindness and good treatment than the father.

 

As regards the wife, then her status and her effect in making the soul tranquil and serene has been clearly shown in the noble aayah (statement of Allaah), in His – the Exalted – saying:

 

"And from His signs is this: That He created for you wives amongst yourselves, so that you may find serentiy and tranquility in them. And He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in this are signs for those who reflect." [sooratur Room 30:21]

 

Al-Haafidh Ibn Katheer (d.774H) – rahimahullaah – said whilst explaining the terms muwaddah and rahmah which occur in the above aayah:

 

"Al-muwaddah means love and affection and ar-rahmah means compassion and pity – since a man takes a woman either due to his love for her, or because of compassion and pity for her; by giving to her a child from himself…" [4]

 

And the unique stance that the Prophet’s (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wife Khadeejah – radiyallaahu ‘anhaa – took, had a huge effect in calming and reassuring the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam), when the angel Jibreel (‘alayhis salaam) first came to the cave of Hiraa. So the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) returned to Khadeejah (radiyallaahu ‘anhaa) with the first Revelation and with his heart beating and trembling severely, and he said to her:

 

"Cover me! Cover me!"

 

So she covered him until his fear was over, after which he told Khadeejah (radiyallaahu ‘anhaa) everything that happened and said:

 

"I fear that something may happen to me."

 

So she said to him:

 

"Never! By Allaah! Allaah will never disgrace you. You keep good ties with the relations, you help the poor and the destitute, you serve your guests generously and assist those who have been afflicted with calamities." [5]

 

And do not forget about ‘Aa`ishah (radiyallaahu ‘anhaa) and her great effect. Since even the great Companions used to take the knowledge of Hadeeth from her, and many of the Sahaabiyaat (female Companions) learned the various rulings pertaining to women’s issues from her.

 

And I have no doubt that my mother – may Allaah shower His mercy upon her – had a tremendous effect upon me, in encouraging me to study; and she assisted me in it. May Allaah greatly increase her reward and reward her with the best of rewards for what she did for me.

 

And there is no doubt also, that the house in which there is kindness, gentleness, love and care, along with the correct Islaamic tarbiyah (education and cultivation) will greatly effect the man. So he will become – if Allaah wills – successful in his affairs and in any matter – whether it be seeking knowledge, trading, earning a living, or other than this. So it is Allaah alone that I ask to grant success and to guide us all to that which He loves and is pleased with. And may the Prayers and Peace of Allaah be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon his Family, his Companions and his followers.

[russell jones]

"The great importance of the Muslim woman’s role – whether as wife, sister, or daughter, and the rights that are due to her and the rights that are due from her"

 

It is telling to me that a women's role is defined by you in relation to others, rather than what she can do for herself or what kind of career she may chose.

[Smart]

Man, women don't WANT careers, they want to stay inside all day... with blankets over their heads... milking goats...

 

And another thing, the public can 'choose' what ever law they want but it really comes down to who's enforcing the law...

 

Zo, Herr Zomalian, your neighbor zayz he zaw you flying ein kite! Und your beard looks zuzpisciouly short, ja? GUARDS! Zee infidel vill recieve fifty lashes mit der vip in der street MACHT SCHNELL!

[Dawood]

what the hell is that supposed to mean?? What she can do by herself? Ok, then she can go find a job without ever dealing with people so that she can be viewed as doing something for herself.

 

that response was a technicality, give me real talk.

[2342]

Man, women don't WANT careers, they want to stay inside all day... with blankets over their heads... milking goats...

 

And another thing, the public can 'choose' what ever law they want but it really comes down to who's enforcing the law...

 

Zo, Herr Zomalian, your neighbor zayz he zaw you flying ein kite! Und your beard looks zuzpisciouly short, ja? GUARDS! Zee infidel vill recieve fifty lashes mit der vip in der street MACHT SCHNELL!

 

So smart- I wirklich Hoffnung, die Sie mit Ihren Anmerkungen kidding über, welche Frauen wirklich wünschen, weil ich Ihnen versichern kann, daß es einige von uns gibt, die unsere Pfostenlehre haben und wir sind sehr erfülltes Arbeiten außerhalb des Haupt.....As für Ihre andere kommentieren ich erhalten es nicht...

[Smart]

2342, gut sagen einige, daß innerhalb jedes Witzes es einen Kern der Wahrheit… nicht ich zwar gibt, ich sagen gerade, was ich glaube und hoffen, daß das Internet alle Spur des Gefühls meine Aussagen abgebend scheinen vieldeutig und etwas geisteskrank entfernt. Ich kümmere mich nicht die um Deutschen zwar, die Frauen habe reizvolle Akzente, aber ich habe Angst, mit ihnen zu schlafen, weil ich höre, daß sie Bär Fallen in ihren Kästen haben.

 

Anyway, does 'picklehaus' mean what I think because I've been using it as a light insult for about the last year, white power. Wanna see a picture? Of course ya do!

[russell jones]

what the hell is that supposed to mean?? What she can do by herself? Ok, then she can go find a job without ever dealing with people so that she can be viewed as doing something for herself.

 

that response was a technicality, give me real talk.

 

The language you use is no technicality, it reveals attitudes that even you yourself may not be aware of.

[2342]

2342, gut sagen einige, daß innerhalb jedes Witzes es einen Kern der Wahrheit… nicht ich zwar gibt, ich sagen gerade, was ich glaube und hoffen, daß das Internet alle Spur des Gefühls meine Aussagen abgebend scheinen vieldeutig und etwas geisteskrank entfernt. Ich kümmere mich nicht die um Deutschen zwar, die Frauen habe reizvolle Akzente, aber ich habe Angst, mit ihnen zu schlafen, weil ich höre, daß sie Bär Fallen in ihren Kästen haben.

 

Anyway, does 'picklehaus' mean what I think because I've been using it as a light insult for about the last year, white power. Wanna see a picture? Of course ya do!

 

Smarty- So are you saying that you hoped with the ambiguity of the internet that you said these things as a joke? I am referring to what you said about women- not wanting to work…… Was this a generalization or were you referring to Muslim women who choose to live by Sharia law. There are plenty of women I know that choose to live by Sharia law and they have very fulfilling lives- WORKING or not- it’s a choice.. And another thing…..Nicht alle deutschen Frauen haben Bär Fallen in ihren Kästen..... und eine weitere nette Abbildung der Sache ist daß Sie?

[Smart]

No, I said... Most people say that at the core of every joke is a kernel of truth... not me though, I say what I want and rely on the ambiguity of the internet to obscure my true feelings. I'm not worried about germans, I think the women there have delightful accents but I'm scared to sleep with them because I heard they have bear traps in their boxes.

 

I'll clue you in on this much, when I say 'women' I mean 'women' all of them, american, muslim, german, japanesian, whatever...

[2342]

Smart- Okay- so now I am starting to get pissed off- why do you say “women” and of course you mean all “women” don’t want to work- they want to stay under the covers? WTF- are you joking- am I over reacting? Please explain….

[Smart]

I thought I made it clear...

 

This is the INTERNET

 

of course you're over-reacting.

[fermentor666]

This isn't the internet, is it?