discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[Juan Fuentes]

Saudi Arabia has a corrupt judicial system. and even though sharia law is unfair and not based on quran(the supposedly greatest authority on religious law for them), they dont even obey the law they put out. it depends a lot on the man that judges the case, not just the law. because according to their law, the men should have gotten death penalty.

 

still, being in some man's car being a 19 yr old female only leads to problems.

i hope she learns.the punishment is excessive still.

[Stereotype V.0002]

still, being in some man's car being a 19 yr old female only leads to problems.

i hope she learns.

 

Wow.

[Dawood]

and even though sharia law is unfair and not based on quran(the supposedly greatest authority on religious law for them).

 

you exited yourself outside of Islam for even saying that, read the quran, man.

You really need to re take shahada if you claim to be a muslim. Juan. I don't even consider you a muslim. How do you think that there is a law better than shariah when Allah says in the quran..

 

And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh's Laws). (Al-Ma'idah 5:44)

 

And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allâh. (Al-Ma'idah 5:47)

 

 

[the district]

And the proof is how God created everything in pairs (by his wisdom), so that you can enjoy each others company and continue to populate the planet.

 

 

In the proof is how God has set the stars for you, so that you may guide your course with their help through the darkness of the land and the sea.

 

And if they turn away (and do not accept these true proofs and evidences from the Quran), then surely, Allâh is All-Aware of those who do mischief. (Aali Imran 3:63)

 

They have hearts but , their hearts do not understand , they have eyes but their eyes do not see, and they have ears but their ears do not hear (the truth). They are like cattle, even more astray than cattle, They are the heedless ones.

 

The problem with most of you is that you're ungrateful for all of the good you have. If you were grateful, possibly your Lord would have mercy on you. Don't you realize that if Allah had willed he could have just destroyed you all knowing that you would be ungrateful and disobedient? But he tested you, from his mercy to see which ones of you would be best in good deeds.

 

 

"Don't you realize that if Allah had willed he could have just destroyed you all knowing that you would be ungrateful and disobedient? But he tested you, from his mercy"

 

Does he have any other choice than to test us? ---It seems as though even god has laws it has to abide by...

 

He could have willed and just destroyed us?

Your saying he could of never made us exist?

Could he have made us exist in torture?

Are we not in torture at the moment?

Why would he create us to be in more torture than we already are in?

What is the measure of imagining more pain when we know of no other imagination of pain than we know, if that is what we have always known?

for example...A child born blind does not have the imagination as to what it is like to expierence the joy of seeing unless he/she could see at one time in thier life.

 

 

also, Why do you not sacrifice your keyboard?

Where is the line of how much thanks and how many things in our lives must we sacrifice to make god happy?

[russell jones]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm

 

"According to the Arab News newspaper, the 19-year-old woman, who is from Saudi Arabia's Shia minority, was gang-raped 14 times in an attack in Qatif in the eastern province a year-and-a-half ago.

 

Seven men from the majority Sunni community were found guilty of the rape and sentenced to prison terms ranging from JUST UNDER A YEAR TO FIVE YEARS.

 

The rape victim was punished for violating Saudi Arabia's laws on segregation that forbid unrelated men and women from associating with each other. She was initially sentenced to 90 lashes for being in the car of a strange man.

 

On appeal, the Arab News reported that the punishment was not reduced but increased to 200 lashes and a six-month prison sentence."

 

Yay Sharia!

 

 

We should have a separate thread for this type of thing.

[Juan Fuentes]

so God doesn't know if you are a muslim if you dont say the magical words.

you people drive people away from islam, with all that violence and superstition that comes from the ahadith.

 

plus dont defend the friends of the zionists, the saudis, their system is corrupt, they dont need the 4 witnesses to convict someone of adultery or fornication. un-quranic as hell.

as well as all the other "islamic" countries which are a bunch of corrupt concentration camps.

 

 

i dont need you to consider me a muslim, God knows very well who we are.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

We should have a separate thread for this type of thing.

 

 

Word. Seriously how do you even defend that course of action, and no I don't really care for the examples of scripture that you may or may not be able to produce that could support that sort of behavior.

 

Allah loves everyone, except rape victims, and all other women for that matter.

[Juan Fuentes]

 

And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh's Laws). (Al-Ma'idah 5:44)

God=QurAn ... shariah/ahadith=people

 

And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allâh. (Al-Ma'idah 5:47)

God revealed the QurAn ... people wrote ahadith 200+ years after QurAn revelation.

 

 

..."So take what the Prophet gives you, and refrain from what he prohibits you." (59.7)

 

 

..."This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5.3)

 

 

..."Nothing have We omitted from the Book." (6.38)

 

 

..."We have without doubt sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." (15.9)

 

 

it shocks you and crashes against your view of islam because all that you have done for these years makes it seem like you did it in vain, so you cant accept you are wrong therefore you will continue defending your sect.

 

no more religion talk for me, you have been shown the verses that should make you reflect upon it.

[Dawood]

so God doesn't know if you are a muslim if you dont say the magical words.

you people drive people away from islam, with all that violence and superstition that comes from the ahadith.

 

plus dont defend the friends of the zionists, the saudis, their system is corrupt, they dont need the 4 witnesses to convict someone of adultery or fornication. un-quranic as hell.

as well as all the other "islamic" countries which are a bunch of corrupt concentration camps.

 

 

i dont need you to consider me a muslim, God knows very well who we are.

 

we're not talking about Islamic countries or saudi arabia, were talking about shariah. You said it is unfair, thus making Allah unfair. What people and countries do is their business, but don't slander Allah's law and turn around calling yourself a muslim.

[Dawood]

..."So take what the Prophet gives you, and refrain from what he prohibits you." (59.7)

 

 

..."This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5.3)

 

 

..."Nothing have We omitted from the Book." (6.38)

 

 

..."We have without doubt sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." (15.9)

 

 

it shocks you and crashes against your view of islam because all that you have done for these years makes it seem like you did it in vain, so you cant accept you are wrong therefore you will continue defending your sect.

 

no more religion talk for me, you have been shown the verses that should make you reflect upon it.

 

what sect is that? tell me what sect I belong to. What are those verses supposed to mean to me? I can go to the tafsir of the sahaba to understand them, but I haven't the slightest clue what you're implying by posting those verses.

[Dawood]

 

 

 

 

Does he have any other choice than to test us? ---It seems as though even god has laws it has to abide by...

 

 

God makes it forbidden upon himself to be unjust to us. Every soul will get exactly what it deserves , if not in this life, then in the next.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He could have willed and just destroyed us?

 

Of course... he owns us. He is the owner of everything and he can do whatever he wills with his property, but from his mercy, he tests us to see who would be grateful for the innumerable blessings

Your saying he could of never made us exist?

He does what he wishes.

 

Could he have made us exist in torture?

Are we not in torture at the moment?

 

I'm not being tortured. Defenitely not compared to the torture of the next life for the ones who turn away from Allah.

Why would he create us to be in more torture than we already are in?

 

We're not in torture. We're in his infinite mercy and blessing. imagine if God took his mercy and blessings away from you even for a second. Youre eyes would explode, you bowels would let loose, your arms, legs, head...everything...gone. We're not being tortured, man. I've read about the torture in the hellfire. Imagine your skin being a mile thick so the nerve endings in it can feel more pain from being scorched by a fire that is 1000 times hotter than any fire you've ever seen. forever. THAT'S TORTURE.

It's the exact opposite for heaven/paradise, where anything you're heart desires is eternally at your fingertips with no feelings of despair, pain, envy, no sorrow, you'll be in a state of increasing contentment FOREVER. This is no way near torture, just a testing ground.

 

 

What is the measure of imagining more pain when we know of no other imagination of pain than we know, if that is what we have always known?

for example...A child born blind does not have the imagination as to what it is like to expierence the joy of seeing unless he/she could see at one time in thier life.

 

I'm not sure I follow. All I know is if the hellfire is 1000 x hotter than any fire on earth. I don't want to be near it. I don't need to measure it.

 

also, Why do you not sacrifice your keyboard?

Where is the line of how much thanks and how many things in our lives must we sacrifice to make god happy?

 

the things that Allah is pleased with and displeased with are clear. Whatever a believer is unaware of or ignorant of, it's likely he'll be forgiven unless he worshipped other gods.

There are many different levels of believers and different ways to give thanks. some people excel over others in pleasing God, those people will have an easy reckoning and will have higher levels in paradise. The people who were lesser in their thankfulness but, believers nonetheless, will have a more difficult time reaching paradise and may even go to the hellfire and eventually be taken out and put in paradise., (and we ask Allah safety from that)

[Dawood]

so God doesn't know if you are a muslim if you dont say the magical words.

you people drive people away from islam, with all that violence and superstition that comes from the ahadith.

 

.

 

HA, Ha! we drive people AWAY!?!?!?!? we have hundreds becoming muslim every day in America Alone. Where are you're kafir "submitter" churches? I've never seen even one. The masaajid of the people on the sunnah are EVERYWHERE in america and all over the world. PACKED with people. Where are you're people? Why don't you people just admit that you have you're own wacked out religion like Farakhan and his group and get on with your lives.

Stop acting like you're muslim, making up you're own religion. Go learn the deen, learn how to even READ the quran in it's proper language THEN come talk to me. Claim you submit to the quran and you don't even know how to read it.

[Dawood]

Word. Seriously how do you even defend that course of action, and no I don't really care for the examples of scripture that you may or may not be able to produce that could support that sort of behavior.

 

Allah loves everyone, except rape victims, and all other women for that matter.

 

Look, I can't speak specifically on this case, because I'm not a judge who has all of the facts in front of me and neither are you. The problem with Americans is that Americans think the rest of the world should adopt it's values by default , but the american value system is only a few hundred years old at best and is constantly evloving into something it totally wasnt even 30 years ago. If Americans understood that there IS a world outside of itself that exists INDEPENDENT of it and it's corruption, the world would be better off. Granted other nations are as corrupt, if not more so in some cases, I'm just saying, the whole attitude that something you don't understand is just by default wrong regardless of the goal behind a particular punishment...is shortsighted....My question is, why didn't anyone bring up the punishments the men got as well? It's always this witch hunt to paint Islam as this barbaric religion that mistreats women while I'll be the first to say mistreating women is wrong (and I learned that from the prophet Muhammad) Why does everyone conveniently leave the punishments on the men out of their argument as if they went home after court?

[Stereotype V.0002]

Look, I can't speak specifically on this case, because I'm not a judge who has all of the facts in front of me and neither are you. The problem with Americans is that Americans think the rest of the world should adopt it's values by default , but the american value system is only a few hundred years old at best and is constantly evloving into something it totally wasnt even 30 years ago.

 

American values? Seriously? How about human values, are you familiar with those? “Backwards” would be an understatement, I think you might be the third guy to the right on the evolutionary chart.

 

Also their (lack of a) punishment is the part I wrote in caps and one of the most disgusting parts of the story. Some of them got about as much time in prison as the girl who was raped, the VICTIM if you will, and none will serve more than a few years. Having a conscience or general sense of right and wrong may not be your forte....so just to clarify their sentences were pathetically small.

[the district]

How can god exist if there is not mans thought to envision it?

[the district]

^^^ God can not exist without mans thoughts of it...

[the.crooked]

that is merely an assurance of our own existence. it speaks nothing to that of something supposedly external to us.

 

 

you are basically taking Descarte's Cogito, and reframing it. It would be as if I were to say "I can not doubt my own doubting, there for I am."

 

in this case, "I can think of a god, therefor I am."

 

However, that we can conceive of such speaks nothing to its actual existence (real or not real).

 

 

just for clarification.

[Removed]

God makes it forbidden upon himself to be unjust to us. Every soul will get exactly what it deserves , if not in this life, then in the next....

 

...I've read about the torture in the hellfire. Imagine your skin being a mile thick so the nerve endings in it can feel more pain from being scorched by a fire that is 1000 times hotter than any fire you've ever seen. forever. THAT'S TORTURE.

 

I am honestly baffled how anyone could submit to a doctrine of such blatent scare mongering!

[dowmagik]

----

A fallacious logical argument based on argumentum ad baculum generally has the following argument form:

 

If x does not accept P as true, then Q.

Q is a punishment on x.

Therefore, P is true.

 

In other words, This is right because if you do not believe it, you will be harmed.

 

This form of argument is an informal fallacy, because the attack Q may not necessarily reveal anything about the truth value of the premise P. This fallacy has been identified since the Middle Ages by many philosophers. This is a special case of argumentum ad consequentiam, or "appeal to consequences".

---

give me some that olde tyme ignorance.

[Dawood]

American values? Seriously? How about human values, are you familiar with those? “Backwards” would be an understatement, I think you might be the third guy to the right on the evolutionary chart.

 

Also their (lack of a) punishment is the part I wrote in caps and one of the most disgusting parts of the story. Some of them got about as much time in prison as the girl who was raped, the VICTIM if you will, and none will serve more than a few years. Having a conscience or general sense of right and wrong may not be your forte....so just to clarify their sentences were pathetically small.

 

actually, In islam. Rape victims are punished by death, so don't quote me as trying to defend this verdict, I'm just saying. I don't have all the facts , nor am I a judge to determine whether this was a "legitimate" rape or the woman just calling it a rape to save herself because she got caught getting a train ran on her. Maybe that's why she's getting punished as well.

 

edited to say...I'm actually going to go back and read that article...

 

ok, read it...I still say you don't know what happened there and the judge probably has a better idea than you do, so again. values aside....You don't have evidence enough to pass judgement on this case. he gave them all anywhere from 10 years to 2 and her 6 months and 200 lashes, he couldv'e been tougher on the men, but we can't really decide because again, we don't know what happened there... so what's the problem?

[Dawood]

^^^ God can not exist without mans thoughts of it...

 

God always was and always will be. He is the everliving and everything will perish , except God. How can man exist without God's creation of him? should have been the question.

 

Oh yeah, man popped out of thin air, from nothing...along with everything else. that's right, I forgot.

[the.crooked]

----

A fallacious logical argument based on argumentum ad baculum generally has the following argument form:

 

If x does not accept P as true, then Q.

Q is a punishment on x.

Therefore, P is true.

 

In other words, This is right because if you do not believe it, you will be harmed.

 

This form of argument is an informal fallacy, because the attack Q may not necessarily reveal anything about the truth value of the premise P. This fallacy has been identified since the Middle Ages by many philosophers. This is a special case of argumentum ad consequentiam, or "appeal to consequences".

---

give me some that olde tyme ignorance.

 

you're speakin my language.

[the district]

God always was and always will be. He is the everliving and everything will perish , except God. How can man exist without God's creation of him? should have been the question.

 

Oh yeah, man popped out of thin air, from nothing...along with everything else. that's right, I forgot.

 

Was god in existence before its creation?

 

The only way god can exist is if it did not exist at one point or will not exist at some point. It has to follow the law of duality.I'm hypothesizing that god has a law to follow.

 

Do organisms and chemicals observe the full existence of god?

 

The minerals and organisms (besides the observing man) only see one part of god.nature.

 

The conscience observer is the only one that can envision god of more than the physical world.

 

Does a parrellel world exist if we never see it?

 

If we just imagine something, its possibility gives it creation.

So something has not existed til mans thought envisions its past present and future possibility. That being said you can create things that have already happened by envisioning thier existance.

 

If a tree falls in the wood does it make a sound?

 

It only makes a sound if one can observe that the tree still existed even though one could not see or hear the tree.If that was not thought of the tree would not make a sound.

[Dawood]

Interesting take, but I think the tree would most definately make the sound.

What relevance does your ear/ability to hear have on the the tree hitting the ground?

 

These questions are giving mankind way to much credit. Nasa just recently discovered a planet thats surface is inhabitable in another galaxy. Does that mean it didn't previously exist and now it does because they found it? It was there, the whole time, while they didn't have the ability to see it. Like God.

[dowmagik]

you're speakin my language.

for the record, i clipped that from wikipedia.

[Stereotype V.0002]

actually, In islam. Rape victims are punished by death

 

I’m assuming this a typo and you meant the rapists are sentenced to death? The rapists being sentenced to death I would support (along with child molesters and other similar crimes), but rape victims getting the death penalty is about as fucked up as it gets. Without videotape or something no we don’t know what happened for sure, but just from the article it sounds like she was raped because she is in the minority sect and they thought they could get away with it.

[Dawood]

oops, my bad...rapists..definately a typo.

[the district]

Interesting take, but I think the tree would most definately make the sound.

What relevance does your ear/ability to hear have on the the tree hitting the ground?

 

These questions are giving mankind way to much credit. Nasa just recently discovered a planet thats surface is inhabitable in another galaxy. Does that mean it didn't previously exist and now it does because they found it? It was there, the whole time, while they didn't have the ability to see it. Like God.

 

it was possible the moment it was thought of and then it had always existed because we associate that with other facts .such as are beliefs of knowing the universe has been alive for however many billions of years...

[Dawood]

so , what you are saying is our minds create everything?

[the district]

Interesting take, but I think the tree would most definately make the sound.

What relevance does your ear/ability to hear have on the the tree hitting the ground?

 

being able to observe it.being under the belief that trees exist.being under the belief that trees fall after time.and many other facts form together to give you the idea that trees fall on thier own and make noises when no one is around.

we know it makes a sound because sound is a wave.the wave exists when someone is there to hear it or not.it wasnt until we grasped that noises happened constantly when we were apes did we start believing that tse noises exist if we are not there.it was proven when we could explain what a noise was in physical form.

 

These questions are giving mankind way to much credit. Nasa just recently discovered a planet thats surface is inhabitable in another galaxy. Does that mean it didn't previously exist and now it does because they found it? It was there, the whole time, while they didn't have the ability to see it. Like God.

 

There was the idea of other planets existing before we found the planet as there was the idea of the world being round before we based facts on it that it was.when we found a bunch of different facts that told us the world has always been round we then believed that the world had been round for a long time.

 

the hard thing im trying to explain is that the imagination can create something in the past or future.In the conscience reality we can not create an exact past or future expierence and actually live it.we can only imagine the idea.or think the thought.