Discussion about prison conditions

[KaBar]

Are2---I am sorry that you went to prison, but I'm not buying that excuse about certain races being discriminated against as any excuse whatsoever. We are all covered by the same set of laws. I've heard other people complain that the prisons are full of non-violent drug users, and that this is very unfair. Unfair how? Is there a person in the entire world that doesn't know dope is illegal? It's illegal! Everybody knows it. The purpose of making it illegal is to keep people from USING IT. It's kind of like the concept of "forbidden" has just vaporized from the brain of people who decide to be a dope user.

Every kid on the street knows drugs are illegal. Okay, along comes the dope man, offers to sell you some dope. How hard is this? Say "No thanks, possession of crack cocaine is three to five in the State Penitentiary, and worth another five from the Feds." But, instead, the kid buys the dope and gets caught. He goes to jail, then to Court, and the judge says, "Well, this is your first offense. I'm a lenient man. You get five years probation and take a piss test every week. Don't use drugs, it's illegal. Be home every night by nine." He bangs his gavel, and Homes hits the street, a happy man--he's not in jail. Does this experience open up Homes' eyes? Does he now understand--"Oh, now I get it! It's illegal! " Nope. Homes goes right back to the dope man, even though he has been told by the judge not to do that, and gets busted again, and goes back before the same judge. Only this time, the judge is pissed. "Didn't I just tell you to not use dope and to take a piss test weekly and to be IN THE HOUSE by nine o'clock?" And Homes says, "Yeah." "Well, guess what, mister? This time, since you can't OBEY, your ass is going to my prison." Who did this? Who is responsible for Homes going to prison? Who is the perpetrator of the behavior that the judge just forbade Homes to do? Was it the police officer who arrested him? The probation officer? The warden or the corrections officer? NO. It was the defendant that put himself behind bars and NOBODY ELSE. So if he doesn't want to be there, WHO does he need to discuss it with? Himself, that's who.

The idea of an innocent person winding up in prison is mostly bullshit. Those guys aren't innocent. Maybe they aren't guilty of the particular crime they went to jail for, but 99% of them did something that they got away with that they SHOULD have gone to jail for, but skated out of it. All the guys I know who say they were wrongfully convicted mean that they were wrongfully convicted for this beef. They brag about all the crimes they did that nobody caught them for. My friend that got 7-1/2 years for dealing cocaine broke the law every damned day, day after day. He was a consistant lawbreaker. But he simply wasn't caught until the cocaine thing.

 

My understanding is that pregnant prisoners are permitted to have their baby and keep it with them, in a special unit for mothers and babies, for one year. After that, the baby either goes to a relative, or it goes to CPS. If the mother is in for more than five years and has no family to care for the baby, it is often put up for adoption by a normal couple, hopefully one that doesn't commit felonies. I agree with you, the baby didn't commit any crimes, and doesn't deserve to be raised in a prison. It deserves to be raised by loving, caring, intelligent parents who place the baby's welfare above EVERYTHING ELSE ON EARTH including dope and booze and breaking the law. What are the chances, do you suppose? Thugs and criminals make terrible parents. The kid is better off being adopted, I think.

[Smart]

Originally posted by KaBar

The idea of an innocent person winding up in prison is mostly bullshit. Those guys aren't innocent. Maybe they aren't guilty of the particular crime they went to jail for, but 99% of them did something that they got away with that they SHOULD have gone to jail for, but skated out of it. All the guys I know who say they were wrongfully convicted mean that they were wrongfully convicted for this beef. They brag about all the crimes they did that nobody caught them for. My friend that got 7-1/2 years for dealing cocaine broke the law every damned day, day after day. He was a consistant lawbreaker. But he simply wasn't caught until the cocaine thing.

 

well, the crime I would be imprisoned for, I commit several times daily, and that consuption of a contraband merits my imprisonment? The fact that I've gotten away with it daily for 10 years makes that MORE meritorius? now THAT smells like bullshit to me. The fact that "All the people you know who claim to be wrongly convicted for a beef" are merely thugs waiting for incarceration makes your viewpoint even more suspect.

[KaBar]

Smart---It's not like you don't know that whatever it is that you are doing is illegal. If you get caught, you'll probably pay the consequences. Individual citizens do not get to decide what shall be legal or illegal. We get to choose whether or not we will break a law. If we break a law deliberately, it stands to reason we already knew what would happen if we got caught. This is only logical and reasonable. To think that you should be able to violate a law and then expect to not be punished is irrational thinking. The law is the law. Keep it, or don't. But it's irrational to think you won't be punished one way or another if you are caught and brought to justice.

[Smart]

Originally posted by KaBar

It's not like you don't know that whatever it is that you are doing is illegal. If you get caught, you'll probably pay the consequences

 

actually, case dismissed, yesterday, 1:30pm, thanks :)

 

my position isn't if my personal choices make me an outlaw or not, more, that my choices do not inherently make me a person 'deserving' of prison...

[KaBar]

Smart----Congratulations on the outcome of your trial. I'd say the system must be working okay. You say you don't belong in jail, and apparently the judge agreed with your assessment. I don't believe that every crime deserves incarceration, but I do believe that the crimes that society has designated as "felonies" do, for the most part, deserve some kind of punishment. For instance, I do not think that writing graffitti on some ugly industrial environment should be a very severe offense. I've done it myself, and I was certainly hoping to not get caught. But had I been caught, and charged, and brought before a judge, I would not have been at all surprised if he judge had handed me a great big fine to pay. I wouldn't have been happy about it, but I also would not have been crying "It's not fair!" Things are prohibited by law because society wishes to deter people from doing those things. It doesn't matter that an individual may think he has a perfect right to (for instance) smoke cigarettes on a commercial airplane. The law says differently. If you light up on a plane, and get caught, you are probably going to be punished. It's pretty straight forward. "If you break the law, and get caught, you are pretty likely to be punished." Simple. The solution is to know the law, and simply not violate it.

[Smart]

It was a bogus stop, he had me dead to rights on my crime, but he violated my rights on the unwarrented stop, so... arguments about the system 'working' aren't really getting anywhere in my case but... I'm not arguing the issues of being afraid to 'settle up' but the ones involved with making it a felony for me to POSSES a pound of weed. How does that hurt others? It was all for my own consumption, I had no intentions to 'deal', but, even then...

 

in certain parts of the Florida Keys it's a felony to even posses a fishing pole. If it's on your boat, dry and crusty, it's a violation.

 

I hope we both realize that felonies, like misdemeanors, come in 3 classes... fishing pole in restricted waters is a 'class c'... my thing was a little more 'class a' but, nobody got hurt, putting me in prison almost guarantees that somebody will get hurt, might be me, but... do I 'deserve' that for a non-violent victimless crime?

[Smart]

Originally posted by KaBar

The solution is to know the law, and simply not violate it.

 

True, but too easy, too broad a statement... what about the concientious objectors? I'm disobeying an unjust law, doesn't that make me a 'true patriot'? What about the people I grew up around? One of them was a 4th generation moonshiner, did Fed time (15), didn't stop. That's a tax issue, not a problem involving alcohol abuse... I was raised around smugglers, rum runners and pirates. The only criminals I saw were pirates, and they we're avoided as much as possible, otherwise, it's straight competition with the established 'distillers' and the victim is the IRS.. in a larger sense that means us, the beneficiaries of tax-funded programs, but I maintain that a rigid audit of the IRS collection policies would provide 5 times as much revenue as they're missing from the nighthawks.

[KaBar]

Smart---I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I was both a conscientious objector (during the Vietnam War) AND a Marine infantryman, a few years later. C.O.'s don't get any special priveleges. I told my Draft Board in 1969 that I refused to be inducted, and I refused to serve as an Army medic or a Navy Hospital Corpsman. I was lucky. They could have turned me over to the Federal prosecutor for arrest and trial, but instead, they allowed me to serve two years' alternative service in lieu of two years' military service. I worked for two years as a hospital orderly in a rehabilitation hospital wiping shit off of paraplegic and quadraplegic men, carrying bedpans, giving people baths, feeding them, dressing them, taking them to physical therapy and so forth. My buddy, who just took a powder instead of resisting, got arrested by the FBI and forcibly inducted into the Army. He was sent to a machinst's school and became an Army machinist for two years, then came home and got a job as a printing press machinist at about ten times my wages. After I finished my alternative service, I began to doubt what I did. I did not feel good about being a C.O., and felt like I still owed my country something. So, at the ripe old age of 26, I enlisted in the Marine Corps and demanded infantry. I spent three years in the 1st Marine Division at Camp Pendleton, CA and three years in the Reserves and one year as a National Guard tanker just for the hell of it. If I hadn't been so goddamned sure I was right, I might have got it right the first time back in 1969.

[Guest Are2]

this is in response to the statement that all in prison deserve to be there <span style='color:deeppink'>i located this info in about 3 minutes by doing a "prisoners freed with DNA evidence" search</span>

 

 

........................................

The 13 men freed from Death Row since 1977 have been exonerated for various reasons, including new DNA evidence and recanted testimony by prosecution witnesses. In five cases -- marked by an asterisk -- jailhouse-informant testimony was used to convict or condemn the defendant.

 

 

Perry Cobb: Acquitted by a judge at his fifth trial.

Initially convicted: 1979 Freed/exonerated: 1987.

 

Darby Tillis: Cobb's co-defendant, he also was acquitted at his fifth trial.

Initially convicted: 1979 Freed/exonerated: 1987.

 

*Joseph Burrows: Freed after two prosecution witnesses recanted their testimony.

Initially convicted: 1989 Freed/exonerated: 1994.

 

*Rolando Cruz: Acquitted by a judge at his third trial after a sheriff's lieutenant recanted his testimony.

Initially convicted: 1985 Freed/exonerated: 1995.

 

Alejandro Hernandez: Cruz's co-defendant, he had charges dropped after Cruz's acquittal.

Initially convicted: 1985 Freed/exonerated: 1995.

 

Verneal Jimerson: A Ford Heights 4 member, he was freed after DNA evidence exonerated him.

Initially convicted: 1985 Freed/exonerated: 1996

 

*Dennis Williams: A Ford Heights 4 member, he was freed after DNA evidence exonerated him.

Initially convicted: 1978 Freed/exonerated: 1996

 

*Gary Gauger: Charges were dropped by prosecutors. Others have since been implicated.

Initially convicted: 1993 Freed/exonerated: 1996

 

Carl Lawson: Acquitted at his third trial by a jury.

Initially convicted: 1990 Freed/exonerated: 1996

 

Anthony Porter: Released after another man confessed to the murders.

Initially convicted: 1983 Freed/exonerated: 1999

 

Steven Smith: Illinois Supreme Court vacated his conviction for insufficient evidence.

Initially convicted: 1986 Freed/exonerated: 1999

 

Ronald Jones: Charges dropped after he was exonerated by DNA evidence.

Initially convicted: 1989 Freed/exonerated: 1999

 

*Steve Manning: Charges dropped after Illinois Supreme Court ruled that improper evidence was used to convict him.

Initially convicted: 1993 Freed/exonerated: 2000

 

 

 

.................................................

 

Actual Innocence; Five Days to Execution, and Other Dispatches From the Wrongly Convicted, is the title of a recently published book. The authors are defense attorneys Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld. They spoke in Madison, Wisconsin on March 1, 2000, at an early stop on their book tour. Their tour not only promotes the book, cowritten with Pulitzer Prize winning author Jim Dwyer, but also promotes The Innocence Project and its cause of exonerating the wrongly convicted. The Innocence Project was created by Scheck and Neufeld at the Cardozo Law School in New York in 1992. Since then, approximately 70 persons have been exonerated, many of them while on death row and some within days of execution. The majority of these exonerations were Innocence Project cases.

 

..................................................

 

 

It's time to stop killing the innocent

Gannett News Service

WASHINGTON - When Judy Haney was tried in Talladega County, Ala., for the contract murder of her husband she had two attorneys - one of whom showed up in court drunk.

 

So drunk in fact that the presiding judge called a recess in the proceeding and ordered the lawyer to jail for the night. When the trial resumed the following day the heavy-drinking attorney was back at the defense table.

 

Haney was convicted and sentenced to death.

 

She spent eight years on death row before an appeals court reduced her sentence to life without parole. What happened to Haney, capital punishment opponents say, is a glaring example of what's wrong with the way the death penalty is meted out in this country.

 

..............................................

 

look at this excerpt...

Larry Marshall, a professor at Northwestern University School of Law and the Director of The Center on Wrongful Convictions, believes 5 to 10% of the prisoners on death row may be innocent. Why are innocent people being wrongly sentenced, and what changes can be made to the system?

 

DNA Testing

Currently, only Illinois and New York give death row inmates the right to DNA testing.

Larry Marshall proposes The Innocence Protection Act of 2000, which would make DNA testing available throughout the country, for any inmate on death row. This Act is now under consideration in the U.S. Congress.

 

*&*%$^%$%#%#$@ SEE HERE...

Racial Bias

A Chicago Tribune investigation reports that in Illinois at least 35 black prisoners on death row were convicted or condemned by an all-white jury.

 

Legal Incompetence

That same investigation reports that at least 33 Illinois death row inmates were represented by attorneys who were later disbarred or suspended.

According to the investigation, in at least 46 death penalty cases, the prosecution's evidence included testimony that was taken from jailhouse informants—a notoriously unreliable source.

Marshall suggests looking at the lessons learned from these cases. He points out a large percentage of eyewitness identifications are erroneous, and most often times jailhouse informants are unreliable. The death penalty should not be considered when this kind of evidence is involved.

 

Finally, Larry Marshall says we need to rethink the death penalty. He asks, "Is the risk of putting innocent people to death really worth it?"

 

Justice Gerald Kogan, a former Florida State Supreme Court Justice, has worked on more than 1,200 death penalty cases, as a judge, a prosecutor, and a defense attorney. During his years on the Supreme Court, 28 executions were carried out. He says he has "grave doubts" about 3 of those cases. After 40 years of experience, he believes innocent people are convicted every day.

 

Changes Being Made

Since the death penalty was reinstated in Illinois in 1977, 12 men have been executed. During that same period, 13 innocent men were freed from death row. That news prompted Republican Governor George Ryan to announce a moratorium on executions in his state. In January 2000, Governor Ryan stated, "Until I can be sure to say with moral certainty that no innocent man or woman is facing a lethal injection, no one will meet that fate."

 

 

...........................................

 

As an addendum

 

juan dixon, this year's NCAA player of the year

was raised by heroin addicts who later died of AIDS

his brother is now a police officer

 

...so i guess thugs may be able to have a decent kid after all as well..

 

 

 

 

please read this and take it to heart

you may one day need the compassion and understanding you are not willing to give to others.

[Guest dukeofyork]

kabars good people....

i dont know why some of you are arguing with him like you are..

[Smart]

Originally posted by KaBar

Smart---I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I was both a conscientious objector (during the Vietnam War) AND a Marine infantryman, a few years later.

 

I never even thought you might be being a smart ass... but what you say leads me closer to what I've been trying to say. What if, instead of your tour in the hospital, you spent that time in prison instead? I don't think you'd have been accepted into the USMC with a criminal record, group W and all that... so, assuming that you were sent to prison for your non-violent resistance, how would that have affected the rest of your life from that point? Where would you be now? Does the fact that you oppose war, and I oppose the criminalization of marijuana, make you more 'just' than me? Does it make me any more of a 'criminal' than you?

 

 

 

 

On a side note, I have to dash, but the first night you posted this, I typed out a long reply, not so much TO you, but just... anyway, the board was down when I tried to submit my reply so I lost it all... I'll re-type it later tonight or tomorrow, it's not really about what we've been discussing, but it relates to the whole topic, so ... later for that

[KaBar]

I share your concern about genuinely innocent people getting convicted of capital crimes. I have to ask myself though, what is WRONG in the state of Illinois that they have so many innocent people on Death Row? Texas has the reputation of being the state most likely to execute a condemned criminal. I forget how many Texas has executed lately, but they did two in one day not long ago. I do not believe that these people are innocent. I also have a real problem with something like some guy getting off the hook because he "only" helped crash into some family's house, beat them senseless, rape the women, torture the Dad, steal all the family's money and narcotics, but then blames his crime partner for pulling the trigger on the multiple victims. I just don't care if he pulled the trigger or not. He deserves to be executed ANYWAY.

I am a strong supporter of the Constitution, and I talk about it on this forum plenty. However, the Constitution was written to govern a people who were mostly law-abiding and moral to begin with. The same thing is true of most State Criminal Codes. A hundred years ago, the membership of an organization like NAMBLA would simply be killed in a murderous rage by an outraged mob. We are erroding people's willingness to be constrained by law slowly and surely, because the law has been liberalized and liberalized and liberalized to where the average person in society thinks the inmates are running the asylum. The danger of making the law so accomodating to behavior considered deviant and unacceptable by the vast majority of people is that juries will begin to use jury nullification to protect vigilantes. Already there are openly operating organizations that are more-or-less dedicated to the assassination of abortion doctors. I saw a video about one on PBS. They said it straight up and on camera that their intention was to murder abortionists, and in fact they VIDEO-TAPED the shooting of a doctor and his escort team in Florida. The murderer is on Death Row. I bet you have no problem executing his ass. I don't. He straight-up murdered two people because he disagreed with them conducting a lawful activity. He knew he would probably get executed before he ever did it. I say, let's accomodate him. He knew the consequences, so I say let's give them to him. And the same result for gang-bangers who murder people, and serial rapists, and so on and so forth. My slogan remains the same: "Obey the law, or pay the price."

[Guest Are2]

okay and that's alll well and good

 

but then don't turn right around and say you're sorry i've been to prison.

...

decide which way you want it

 

i committed a crime, i knew it was a crime, and i paid the price

i wasn't using any of those examples of our justice system being fucked as an excuse

 

 

 

and besides, on reflection, it wasn't prison, it was jail...i know there is a difference.

[Guest Are2]

and by the way

 

i don't agree fully with capital punishment

until our government has a foolproof system for proving the guilty responsible, then i am not so sure we should be putting people to death

[Guest bug]

Originally posted by KaBar

I do not believe that these people are innocent.

 

Your 'belief' has no relevence to the fate of someones life. Are2 posted only a fraction of people who were also not 'believed' to be innocent

 

Originally posted by KaBar

I also have a real problem with something like some guy getting off the hook because he "only" helped crash into some family's house, beat them senseless, rape the women, torture the Dad, steal all the family's money and narcotics, but then blames his crime partner for pulling the trigger on the multiple victims. I just don't care if he pulled the trigger or not. He deserves to be executed

 

i honestly can't comment on this until you can provide examples of where this happens and with what frequency it actually does occur.

 

Originally posted by KaBar

I am a strong supporter of the Constitution, and I talk about it on this forum plenty. However, the Constitution was written to govern a people who were mostly law-abiding and moral to begin with. The same thing is true of most State Criminal Codes.

 

No, the constitution wasn't written to govern, but written to protect citizens from government. it cannot be cited as a justification for people sent to prison for crimes that should be dealt with in a different manner. if you want to speak of the intentions of the constitution, it is quite obvious by the behavior and lifestyle of its authors, that it was meant to apply only to white males. i am thankful that the constitution does grant me many human rights, but it only started applying to me (since i am only half white) after the civil rights movement which occured 200 years after the constitution was enacted. If you agree that paying taxes is necessary to run this country, then you support the belief that the constitution can be altered and is therefore not absolute. the whole point of your argument (from what i gather) is that people know the consequences when comitting crimes. my point is that we can lobby to change our laws so that the consequences adequately suit the offense, and taking your standpoint doesn't help this effort.

 

Originally posted by KaBar

A hundred years ago, the membership of an organization like NAMBLA would simply be killed in a murderous rage by an outraged mob. We are erroding people's willingness to be constrained by law slowly and surely, because the law has been liberalized and liberalized and liberalized to where the average person in society thinks the inmates are running the asylum. The danger of making the law so accomodating to behavior considered deviant and unacceptable by the vast majority of people is that juries will begin to use jury nullification to protect vigilantes.

 

if you supprt the constitution, then you should support the freedom of assembly, and the freedom of speech. the agenda that NAMBLA promotes is extremely fucked up, but they do have the right to believe in what they want. this also applies to the KKK. the fact is, NAMBLA (and the KKK) will never have legislation in their favor since they promote the violation of other people's rights. Does your statement support the murder of NAMBLA members? i personally have no sympathy for any NAMBLA member, but i wouldn't advocate their murder.

 

Originally posted by KaBar

Already there are openly operating organizations that are more-or-less dedicated to the assassination of abortion doctors. I saw a video about one on PBS. They said it straight up and on camera that their intention was to murder abortionists, and in fact they VIDEO-TAPED the shooting of a doctor and his escort team in Florida. The murderer is on Death Row. I bet you have no problem executing his ass. I don't. He straight-up murdered two people because he disagreed with them conducting a lawful activity. He knew he would probably get executed before he ever did it. I say, let's accomodate him. He knew the consequences, so I say let's give them to him. And the same result for gang-bangers who murder people, and serial rapists, and so on and so forth.

 

I don't disagree, but this is a rare case where a groups agenda is to violate other people's rights. it's not relevent to people going to jail for having an ounce of weed for personal use and then being subjected to rape and violence in prison, which, from what i gather, is the general overtone of this thread.

 

Originally posted by KaBar

My slogan remains the same: "Obey the law, or pay the price."

The law is merely a reflection of popular opinion of what is right and wrong. Popular opinion changes, and therefore the law should follow suit. People shouldn't be subjected to awful prison conditions for doing something that doesn't hurt anyone.

[Guest Are2]

it's funny this would com eup now, but yesterday on the news i saw that our state has lost a lot of funding

 

now, the prisons are overcrowded without enough corrections officers..it is so bad inmates are sleeping 2 and 3 to a cell on the floor, it also means all kinds of criminals are in jail together

 

and we lost so much funding, the public defenders office is turning eligible people away because of a law that prevents them from handling more than 60 cases..

 

so, by obeying the law that keeps them from overstocking caseloads, they end up violating the criminals right to adequate representation, and a speedy trial

 

so, we are solving the overcrowding problem by turning cases away until they have been postponed so many times that they are thrown out

 

our justice system is fucked.

[Remi Martin]

where im at, at least seventy percent of those incarcirated are for non violent offenses...case in point...a nineteen year old getting five years for selling speed on probation..now granted speed is fucked up but why the fuck are you going to spend at least 150,000$ to destroy someones life when they could do it themselfes...in the last 20 years they have built somthing like 13 prisons and 3 colleges here..the incarceration rates have tripled and you got people getting life for stealing a pizza, and im not joking...i have several friends that have been to prison, in fact more than have graduated from college. somthings wrong with that...and the thing that really sucks is without money you have no hope of justice if wrongly accused, sending nonviolent people to prison destroys not only the prisoner most of the time but does a great deal of damage to the familly unit that person may have...so on so forth..i pay a lot of fucking money to white racist politicians that make laws that unfairly target people in poverty and lock them up in alarming rates for crimes that do not warrant it....meanwhile corps privatize prisons and public schools have roofs falling in and kids are using text books from the 80s...fuck that...

[Guest ceasoner]

The prison out here is really not that bad. I f you dont fuck around they wont fuck with you... Its the good for nothen Muts(guards) that make it a living hell. I had to wait 3 days to get a fucken pen while i was on lock down.... 3 fucken days......

[Remi Martin]

united nations of hypocriscy....

my first bid i got thrown in classification for a week with no tv, all older cats headed to the pen...it was cool though..people were really really nice to me..this cat was lookin at 6 for gettin caught in a highspeed chase with a pound of meth...this cat was on lockdown 23/7 except for meals and when it was meal time he gave me his food. that was really a nice thing to do to a graffit writer caught up in the mix..then he got off lockdown and we chilled in the max security yard..it was cool..i got all these old g's hyped off breaking...anyway, this cat was my introduction to the culture of the imprisoned...him this other cat and myself would play bones and just bullshit for hours.....then i got transfered to mainline in a max sec. facility, federal holding facility at that...and it was cool for a sec..my celly was chill...then i got hit with dorm room detention and breakdanced and smoked weed while watching tons of fights cause cats was getting flipped for years on bullshit and did not give a fuck,..........case in point i cried to my probation officer that i was sorry for what i did to my mom, and what i did was get caught up in the same system her brothers and uncles did...i fear the pen. but the prison system so largley affects the people out here that unless your rich you got peoples locked down...dont get me wrong..violent evil people should be locked away..but dont lock away humans for being humans...what you gotta say on that kabar

[KaBar]

I say that it sounds like the joint you were in was run loose as a goose. My friends in Walla Walla had it a hell of a lot worse. The guy I know who works at the TDCJ Furgeson Unit describes a situation a hell of a lot more controlled than what you describe. However, the up side is that although the unit is high security and the inmates have minimal movement or freedom (like you described--locked down 23 out of 24, 7 days a week) there are very few fights or assaults because they are housed one to a cell, and only moved to the rec cage in handcuffs. If they must go outside, it's handcuffs and leg irons with a belly chain. To get out of their cells, they must kneel down and put their hands behind them through the bean hole to get cuffed up. The rest of the time, they are locked up in their cells. If they throw piss, or shit, or even water, on a guard it's cold "food loaf" for a while. Seven days for water, thirty days for piss or shit. Plus, there's always the SORT team to contend with. Any disturbance outside of a cell, they get gassed.

Is this any way to treat human beings? I guess not, not if they can BEHAVE THEMSELVES. But since they can't obey the law, and they can't obey the prison regulations, and they can't obey the verbal orders of the corrections officers, I guess they have placed themselves in a seriously fucked-up situation.

I agree, our criminal justice system is fucked up. It is too hard on the minor offenders, and way too easy on the genuinely bad guys.

It's getting harder and harder to get people to work as prison guards, and cops, and teachers, and parole officers, and just about every occupation that has been ruined by all these ridiculous politically correct laws and rules. It's kind of funny, in a way. These criminals will be getting out someday. And the very same liberals that took the teeth out of the system, and made it possible for these predators to be back on the street, are going to be their logical victims. It won't be me, or people like me, because these guys look for WEAK TARGETS. It will be the same panty-waist liberals that worked to get them out that will be their victims. At least, that's what I hope for. It would be poetic justice in a way. Where do you think these guys are coming home to? Bel Aire? Nope. They will be walking the same streets they walked before. I feel sorry for their family and their neighbors.

[Remi Martin]

the unit your describing represents only a small population of the prison system though...the majority of people that make it up are in on drug related offenses..usually sales and use...try and scare me all you want with seg unit stories...im more scared of a system that locks people up for the wrong reasons and does nothing to rehabilitate them. I dont see how the liberals took the teeth out of the system..if anything its the conservitives that insist on locking up drug offenders for years over sales...thats why rapists and shit get out early cause the fucking republicans insist on locking up nonviolent people in the same system and crowding it with the wrong people.

[I Luv Roo]

Originally posted by KaBar

I Luv Roo---Your problem is that you have been basically riding for free. You've been doing as you please and skating out of the consequences.

 

You didn't even read my post - and you have the fucking nerve to tell me I've been riding for free? Hey! I'm not the one who's been hopping freights FOR FREE my whole life! Riding for FREE!? I suggest you gain a little more insight to my life before you make such a brash statement.

 

"Before you break another law in your life, though, you need to go visit a jail"- read my fucking post before you go with your fucking self rightous bullshit know-it-all attitude. I've BEEN to jail - and I described it in my post. Let me say it again...ALL the women were in there for small time drug offenses. They were NOT violent psychopaths, they had a sickness, and the way this country decides to treat a sickness is to punish it? They ALL had been in multiple times - they have been beaten into submission, told they are worthless, and told that they have no chance to the point where there is no place else to go, and they actually start believing this and propogating this hateful ignorant cycle. If you are too hard headed to understand a few things about this country and this society - then there's no use arguing.

 

You're condescending to a group of GRAFFITI WRITERS - guaranteed most of us have visited to slammer at least once. Do you see us as hardened criminals, as poeple with no sense of right and wrong? If so - why the fuck do you post here? Do you think you're really going to convince anyone? There's no other way I can describe people like you other than FULL OF SHIT. Who the FUCK do you think you are! I oughtta....

[KaBar]

I Luv Roo---Hey, I don't care if you went to jail, really. I mean, come on. You ought to be the one telling people to try and stay out of the place, not me. The Slammer? Jeeze, where did you go? Shelton? I spent years visiting friends that were imprisoned for some fairly serious crimes. Of course, they all swore they were innocent, it wasn't fair, the judge was croooked, etc., etc. I bought that for a long time, but you know what? They weren't even trying to avoid trouble. They just did stupid shit that got them in deeper. Rehabilitation is nonsense. The purpose of incarceration is punishment. Nobody cares about rehabilitating a criminal. What society wants is for him (or her) to cease the prohibited behavior once he or she gets out. In short, to obey. Some people follow the rules, some people don't, and I don't think the cops really care one way or another. The worst part about prison isn't the corrections officers, it's being locked up with all those folks who have managed to get themselves into prison.

Maybe women's prisons are a little easier. They are certainly less violent. Doesn't having been there make you want to not go back?

 

I knew you would jump on that line about riding for free as soon as I wrote it, and I thought about deleting it. Maybe it was unfair, after all, you did get sent to jail. I guess it didn't take, eh? Being in jail, I mean.

 

I've been to jail too. I hated it, but as much as I hated the cops, the entire time I knew it was me, not them, that put me in there. I got busted for rolling a cigarette in a bus station in Lake Charles, LA. I should have known better. The cops showed up within ten minutes and arrested us. They thought we were smuggling dope. Lucky for us we weren't. We spent a weekend in jail until they could run our sheets from Texas and found out that we had no criminal records. Then they took us back down to the same bus station and put us straight on a bus. The last thing the cop said was "Boy, don't you ever set foot in Louisiana again." I said, "No sir. I won't be back." That was 1968. I didn't go back again until 1999, and then I flew, straight to New Orleans. All things considered, I think we were lucky to avoid a phony dope charge. That sort of thing was pretty common back then, especially in a place like Lake Charles. And, like you say, probably pretty common right now.

So why do you suppose the cops don't hassle me these days? Can they tell that I'm a Republican by my smell or what?

[Xeroshoes]

Originally posted by KaBar

I got busted for rolling a cigarette in a bus station in Lake Charles, LA. I should have known better

 

That's true, but the point you seem to be arguing around is that the system should have known better too. I didnt spend a lot of time perusing this thread, but your angle seems to be "you commit the crime, you go to jail, its your own damn fault, so dont complain." It's true that it's most directly the criminals fault, but it's also indirectly society's and the legal system's fault, and it's important for people in general to know that. It doesn't matter how things are, as long as you accept them, if you want things to change. Acquiescing to certain laws (on graffiti, drug use, etc...), if you have no moral objection to commiting them (as is perfectly logical), is in many cases immoral compared to comitting them. Things arent gonna get better if people stop doing these things due to intimidation by the big bad bully government. That only leads down the road to something of a "Big Brother" state. Killers and rapists and the like, they deserve to go to jail, theres actually something wrong with them that warrants being put in a cage, but you can't seriously advocate putting drug users and graffitists, with fully functioning abilities to tell right from wrong, in cages, let alone with violent offenders.

[I Luv Roo]

My mother works with a woman from out here in SF who used to work for the DEA. The woman quit because she saw from the inside that the way the DEA went about 'doing their job' was lazy and corrupt. She was sent to bust small time offenders like naive kids slangin acid or pot up around haight/ashbury - get for enough drugs that they could throw em in prison for 15 years. FIFTEEN years is NOT a fair sentence for naive kids experimenting with drugs or simply slangin it, I don't care who argues otherwise. By doing this the DEA fulfilled it's requirements in the "war on drugs", and didn't have to do the really ugly work of catching the big time dealers.

 

I know an older man who was finally caught after years of importing Marijuana into this country, caught by the FBI because they stopped two tons of it from coming in to SF. The guy's from DC, and of course, he had enough mulah to get off scott free. I've seen the indictment, and the proof is there - so how did he get off. He was using the money he got from the marijuana to buy and sell mass amounts of firearms and artillery. That's some movie shit right there....

and the scumbag got off. Maybe he was smart enough to not have to go to prison, but I'd tend to believe rather that he was filthy rich and that's what kept him out. Seems pretty fucking crystal clear to me. This guy was the religious leader of a community - and example. I went to school with his kids and they all were perfect little angels....it's too creepy.

 

I've worked hard for what I have, so whenever anyone tells me I've had a free ride, I get mad! I see alot of people who DO get a free ride, and have no moral fiber because they've been handed everything. Money gets them what they want. And that is certainly NOT me. I come from a huge working class family, who all know that what makes a truly good person is hard work and honesty. I work my ass off - I work the graveyard shift, then I go home and when I have free time I paint, teach, write, read....etc. Hopefully someday I will appreciated for all of it, but right now just it itself is reward enough.

[ASER1NE]

all i know is that the med-low security prisons in canada are better than country clubs , and in the max ones , its no big deal either , youre allowed TV's computers , books magazines all that shit you got on the outside (except being able to go to the outside)

[seven six two]

i haven't been following this thread at all, but i'd imagine prison conditions will forever suck. nobody likes being locked up in a cage.

 

 

and yeah, if ka-bar was an objector in the vietnam war then chances are he doesn't write graf now. i don't know his story for bring on here if that objector story was true, but...

 

 

do we have another carla thaler here?

[KaBar]

Do the Math, and Who is Carla Thaler?

 

The "official" periods of time for the American portion of the Vietnam War is between 1961 and 1972. Vietnam-era veteran status was conferred upon enlistees until Dec. 31, 1976. I enlisted in Oct. of 1976, but did not ship for Boot Camp until Feb 1977.

 

I was born in 1950. I was 18 in 1968, but I dogged it in high school because I was a dope-smoking dumb ass, and didn't graduate until 1969. My Draft Board sent me to work for "twenty-four consecutive months" in an alternative service job at a rehabilitation hospital in Houston, in lieu of military service. In 1976 at age 26, shortly before I became too old, I enlisted in the Marines and insisted upon infantry. I was the oldest man in my recruit platoon, and two years older than my senior drill instructor. I served three years active in the Marine infantry, three years inactive Reserve and one year as a National Guardsman, in a tank battalion.

I started surfing in 1963, when I was 13. I surfed the last time in 1981, shortly after being discharged from active duty. It was a VERY cold day to be surfing, and I think I quit because I realized that while I was in the best shape of my entire life, I just wasn't up to paddling out through ten foot waves any more. I quit skateboarding that same year due to an elbow injury. I had a family to support. One must set priorities, and at age 31, skateboarding is pretty low on the list.

 

I think it's safe to assume I am the oldest participant on this list, and no, I do not write graffitti very often, but I have written some. I'm just not your AVERAGE graffitti writer--I'm older than most.

 

Who is Carla Thaler?