Please Pray for Minneapolis.

[WORDISM45]

thats a really weak argument. summarised 'it's not ok to kill innocent civilians because it is damaging to Islam and it doesn;t benefit any muslims'

 

leaves open the obvious point that if it wasn't damagin to Islam or if it benefited muslims it would be cool to blow yourself up on a schoolbus

[M_I]

^^real muslims dont blow up anybody. Tolerance and brotherhood is a fundamental principle of islam.

[Dawood]

thats a really weak argument. summarised 'it's not ok to kill innocent civilians because it is damaging to Islam and it doesn;t benefit any muslims'

 

leaves open the obvious point that if it wasn't damagin to Islam or if it benefited muslims it would be cool to blow yourself up on a schoolbus

 

you can take whatever you want from it, the point is. It is not allowed in Islam to kill innocent people, point blank, He was just making note of the fact that it harms the image of Islam and does not benefit Islam because the people who in fact do kill people in the name of Islam think they are doing it for the religion because they beleive they are avenging the oppression and unjust killing the american govt. and others is doing to muslims. But attacking civilians is not allowed, even if people came to Islam by the millions on account of killing innocent people it still is not allowed, so don't try to read too far between the lines, just because you don't like religion. Be just and stand for the truth even if it's against your ownself.

[boogie hands]

so we both agree that quran is the direct word of god, correct? being that this is the direct word of god it would be reasonable to assume that a "real muslim" would follow the direct words of god as he himself has laid out. now with that said, here are a few of your gods words and wishes....

 

(Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

 

(Koran 69:30-37) "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."

 

(Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

 

(Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

 

so, according to your "tolerant" and peaceful religion, you should be torturing me right now. do you see what my point here, even slightly? these are just a small segment of the many intolerant, militant passages in which god himself sanctions violence against non-believers. who are these "scholars" that posses such little understanding of their own religion that they can, with a straight face, write an article like the one above? it seems to me that the quran is an excellent textbook to those people who are currently committing atrocities against fellow muslims and non-muslims in the middle east and other areas around the world.

 

this is the issue with religious moderates. how can you choose to practice those attributes of religion that are acceptable in our society while discarding those that are consider archaic by todays standards? are you not doing a disservice to your religion and god himself by altering his word to fit your life? it seems to cheapen it to the point where you may as well be an athiest with good values and morals.

 

again, dawood, please note i am not singling out your religion. the last thing i would want anyone to see me as is selectively intolerant. i could duplicate what i have just done with other religions as well.

[Dawood]

ok, the problem with just posting verses like that and applying them to everyday situations and life is that there is also this verse.

 

It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî). (Aali Imran 3:7)

 

And this verse tells us clearly to beleive in the whole book. There are hundreds of peaceful veses encouraging people to make peace and warning against killing etc. like these....

 

O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allâh is Most Merciful to you. (An-Nisa 4:29)

 

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.(Al-Ma'idah 5:32)

 

." Verily, Allâh guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar! (Ghafir 40:28)

 

Those who break Allâh's Covenant after ratifying it, and sever what Allâh has ordered to be joined (as regards Allâh's Religion of Islâmic Monotheism, and to practise its legal laws on the earth and also as regards keeping good relations with kith and kin), and do mischief on earth, it is they who are the losers. (Al-Baqarah 2:27)

 

And make not Allâh's (Name) an excuse in your oaths against your doing good and acting piously, and making peace among mankind. (Al-Baqarah 2:224)

 

I could keep going, but it would be too long, anyway...

 

Is this a contradiction? Is God trying to confuse us?

One verse he's telling us to kill the disbeleivers , next minute he's telling us to make peace among mankind...What's up with that Boogie?

Seems to me that there's more to it than just plucking verses out and applying them in any random manner. That's why Muslims are encouraged to learn their religion and practice it properly. Honestly, now I can see why people don't become muslim. If you actually thought that the religion of Islam (the word Islam means submission to God, comes from the root word Salaam, that means peace) encouraged muslims to just randomly kill people because they're not muslim, then, ok. I understand why you wouldn't want any part of that, but the truth is that Quran is applied with knowledge, wisdom and understanding and can't just be applied by any unqualified person who doesn't even know the book to just come and say whatever he likes about it, twisting it to mean certain things that it doesn't mean.

 

Every verse in the quran has a context, most of the quran is completely clear, but some of the verses were revealed under a set of circumstances during the life of the prophet Muhammad and are applied to that time and meant to be undestood as such.

They can be applied to our time for sure, but only under thr right circumstances and only by the proper authorities (islamic scholars.)

 

I hope this helps you understand.

[Theo Huxtable.]

Devout fundamentalists will never grasp and realize that their "holy books" were written by men, and like all men, were prone to error and were not omnipotent or "all-knowing". These books were then revised by other men throughout the centuries. How do their "holy books" differ from other mythological tales and folklore? So many Muslims will read every word and irrefutable fact and truth. If a text tells you to terrorize non-believers, simply because a man several centuries ago with biases wrote it, then it is received by its followers as being the gospel. Which, essentially, it is the "gospel".

 

That said, there is a lot of valuable information to receive from both the Qu'ran and Holy Bible. I tend to believe that the conscience is the Voice of God, and one can lead a morally-righteous life guided by conscience combined with education, logic, reason, and life experience. Many Holy books base a lot of their principles on these facets. "The Golden Rule", which exists in the teachings of every major religion, is also a good rule to live by. If you are a fundamentalist fanatic that interprets their thousand+ year-old teachings literally, word-for-word, and not even metaphorically; to me this is not a rational or stable individual.

[Juan Fuentes]

one can lead a morally-righteous life guided by conscience combined with education, logic, reason, and life experience

 

if your conscience is the right one, because you can think taking my land and things is moral...having a "dirty" conscience is that...., and yeah, overall in a way it does work what you said but individualy not in a group(humanity) which is being mislead by a group of wicked(e.i the nwo) men, so the religions are systems for people with conscience to use them against those men.

 

also denying God is not having conscience, because if you had it you would know there is a creator for everything that exists, and his system if you make research is ______(you fill in the blank after research, you have all your life to find it, i hope God guides you)

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

i thought there was a thread for this...

[M_I]

Boogie---

 

like i said earlier:

 

people/fundamental scholars twist and mangle the translation of the Quran to fit their needs....unless you or I can speak/read arabic we need to rely on translators that are level headed and dont have ulterior motives in their words.

[Dawood]

Devout fundamentalists will never grasp and realize that their "holy books" were written by men, and like all men, were prone to error and were not omnipotent or "all-knowing". These books were then revised by other men throughout the centuries. How do their "holy books" differ from other mythological tales and folklore? So many Muslims will read every word and irrefutable fact and truth. If a text tells you to terrorize non-believers, simply because a man several centuries ago with biases wrote it, then it is received by its followers as being the gospel. Which, essentially, it is the "gospel".

 

That said, there is a lot of valuable information to receive from both the Qu'ran and Holy Bible. I tend to believe that the conscience is the Voice of God, and one can lead a morally-righteous life guided by conscience combined with education, logic, reason, and life experience. Many Holy books base a lot of their principles on these facets. "The Golden Rule", which exists in the teachings of every major religion, is also a good rule to live by. If you are a fundamentalist fanatic that interprets their thousand+ year-old teachings literally, word-for-word, and not even metaphorically; to me this is not a rational or stable individual.

 

 

listen, Theo. The Quran is a literary miracle in the arabic language. During the time when it was revealed poetry was the main thing the arabs used to revolve their lives around. It was their way of passing the time, entertainment, information, etc.

When the arabs heard the quran, they were amazed at it's eliquence and message. Some people accepted Islam, some didn't . The ones that didn't used to call the prophet Muhammad a sorcerer because they agreed that whatever he was saying wasn't from his ownself. He was illiterate and couldn't write, but you say he wrote the quran himself?

Generations and generations memorise the quran word for word by heart. THE WHOLE QURAN!! Islam is not like the other false religions that fall under the category of what you say. (that the books were rewritten etc.) If that's your claim Theo, then learn arabic and refute the fact that the Quran remains pure from the day it was revealed. As a matter of fact, Allah puts forth a challenge to people like you where he says if you disbeleive in the quran, then write your own book, and call all of your witnesses to follow you. So if you can't do it, then know that the Quran is from Allah.

 

"Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. But if they do not answer you, then know that it is revealed by Allah's knowledge and that there is none worthy of worship but Him; will you then submit?" [Qur'an 11:13]

So, there's your challenge, if what you say is the truth, Theo. write even 10 verses, and call all your people to beleive in them, then organise billions of people to worship your God. If you can't, then admit that the quran is from Allah.

[Dawood]

also denying God is not having conscience, because if you had it you would know there is a creator for everything that exists, and his system if you make research is ______(you fill in the blank after research, you have all your life to find it, i hope God guides you)

 

 

Ameen,

 

Also, check this out....

 

when I was standing here, amidst millions of people from every country on the face of the planet. I thought to myself, who could organise something like this every year? , 4-6 million people come from every crevice of humanity seeking God's mercy and forgiveness. I thought, this is truly and amazing sight. Who could pull this off every year except the one who created everything to worship and glorify his greatness? So, go ahead....do it.

 

[Theo Huxtable.]

if your conscience is the right one, because you can think taking my land and things is moral...having a "dirty" conscience is that...., and yeah, overall in a way it does work what you said but individualy not in a group(humanity) which is being mislead by a group of wicked(e.i the nwo) men, so the religions are systems for people with conscience to use them against those men.

 

also denying God is not having conscience, because if you had it you would know there is a creator for everything that exists, and his system if you make research is ______(you fill in the blank after research, you have all your life to find it, i hope God guides you)

 

Did you not read where I stated that the conscience is the Voice of God? Because of that statement, that implies that I do not deny God.

 

Yes, one can have a corrupted conscience. One can be brainwashed and misguided, yes. But how does one determine whether a conscience is either corrupt or morally righteous? How do we determine which are the correct laws of morals? To quote St. Thomas Aquinas and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: "Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust." By that determination, taking your land is a blatant degradation of human personality, and is therefore unjust and obviously such a "conscience" is corrupted. They are not truly following their true conscience and soul in the first place, but rather the corruption that has overshadowed their minds.