Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by DISCO BRYSO I wonder where we would be if our culture conceived government before we conceived of a natural god or divine right. I'm pretty sure government came way before notions of divinity. Pack leadership in apes and all that stuff... Leaders promised longer survival. As soon as we turned into humans, and started thinking about what happens after death, gods were conceived and leaders promised afterlife on top of survival. Beer, El Mamerro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DISCO BRYSO Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 yes, but organized religion came before organized government. that's what I meant. not necessarily the instinctive behavior behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 BLAHG. not a bad topic, too bad about the smug power dynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest --zeSto-- Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 why do I always find threads like this after the point where anything I write could possibly have any meaning. zesto/IBmissing the gravy train again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by DISCO BRYSO yes, but organized religion came before organized government. that's what I meant. not necessarily the instinctive behavior behind them. http://www.jammsammich.com/Links/tru-dat.jpg'> http://karaart.com/geneva.museums/mah.gif'> http://www.viceland.com/issues/v9n1/htdocs/guilty/nigga.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 i take that big blahg back. in the time that i put down some intial thoughts, to the tickling match i just had with my girl, to editing the whole thing down to a lame post, you guys posted alot of good stuff and redeemed the serious saltiness this thread was giving off. <i'm with zesto. and mammski....'L to the CH'?!?!:dazed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by DISCO BRYSO yes, but organized religion came before organized government. support this please... I can't see how you could possibly prove it. Are you suggesting that Theocracy was the first form of government? I think it's pretty obvious that Dictatorship would be the easiest form of government to conceptualize. Religion and religious justification seem like inventions of the weak. Nobody wants to stand up to "Big Ugly Grog", but if you offer them possible rewards in the physical world and guranteed happiness in the afterlife... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 I'm not 100% sure, but I do recall reading/watching/hearing/learning about shamans and priest-figures being the first "official" leader ranks in society. It also boils down to what we consider "official" or "organized"... I'm not sure if being the biggest male in the pack falls under these. Beer, El Mamerro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 mamz, i'm trying to aim you bro, it says you're not signed on.......... whats the deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 disco, i dont really care what you think of me, or where you believe i place myself in the heirachy of life, thats completely irrelivent to the points im making. its too bad anytime people of any 'intelligence' get into a conversation it has to turn into a pissing match of egos. all i want is some sort of facts or ideas to back up why you think im wrong. i took it personal because you refuse to give them, relying on the hinting of some sort of divine knowledge you've attained... but enough of that. both you and are2 are completely cluttering the issues with unecessary facts. yes, of course people have (slightly) different chemical make ups, physical features, and other distinguishing nuances, but in the grand scheme of things, thats completely irrelivent. what the guy who killed samantha was feeling, is the same thing you feel when you go out to paint. its obviously a different manifestation, but its an instinctual need to fullfill something. every human needs that. some might fill it with drugs, some with god, some with sports, some with art, but its still the same needs and desires. i honestly cant believe that you all (save mams) are having such a hard time grasping this, and why you feel a need to argue it. is it just because its me saying that? thats pretty unfortunit. what im talking about is the absolute basic building blocks that link every single human (as well as animal) on earth. a black dog and a brown dog might look different, but they each wake up everyday looking for food, water and a shady place to rest. one of them might enjoy playing with a ball, while the other might have a thing for chasing mailmen, but those are just two sides of the same coin. basically it comes down to this, i can give you roughly 5.6 billion examples of what im saying, until either of you can give me one example of a human being that does not to eat, sleep, have shelter, or seek something out of their existence, everything you're claiming is just a pervesion of the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest --zeSto-- Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 about shamans and priest-figures being the first "official" leader ranks in society I'm sorry but the first real leaders were the grandmothers of the tribe. Men went out hunting and all the children were raised by women. And the women we're way more likely to have strong spiritual connections. Which lead into the myth of the witch and the end of the ancient world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by DISCO BRYSO I laughed really hard while I was reading this sentence. I imagined you saying it in a conversation and just couldn't deal. hilarity. Don't front like you don't like the L to the Ch, that shit's proven. the L to the Ch? ha ha ha. whats funny is that i really talk like that... Originally posted by El Mamerro Hmmm... those are largely general biological functions. The degree of individual differences between people in those functions is incredibly small when talking about the species as a whole. As a matter of fact, it's what MAKES us a species separate from other animals. If these were so different among people as you say, we'd have much more than just "humans" in our civilization. Beer, El Mamerro what you fail to realize is that in such a highly regulated and efficient system like the human body, even the teeniest, seemingly meaningless differences between people in those areas eventually translate into huge differences in the way we feel , think, perceive the world around us and inside us, our emotions, and moods....... personalities are based on these physiological realities.. our personalities define the way we perceive reality not only is every person different, the way each person perceives reality is different.. by the way, since we're all smart here, i'll mention that i have an AA in biology, and a BS in biochemistry, and molecular biology, plus a minor in psychology and plenty of philosophy courses... so, i know a little bit about physiology and the human brain.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by El Mamerro Jah, I really like a lot of the things you have to say, but I have a hard time reading them because they're always single solid blocks of text. When I'm midway through reading them, it's hard to find out what the next line is, and I get lost and frustrated and stop reading. You should separate stuff into easier to read paragraphs... I'm not trying to be a dick, I just want to enjoy your writing better. Beerm El Mamerro thanx man. always nice to hear positive feedback after having all these people who think theyre superior in so many ways try and make you look like another idiot who doesnt know shit. ill try and remember to break stuff into paragraphs. im sure people notice i dont put all my punctuation in and dont use proper grammar all the time. im not the most enthusiastic person when it comes to typing. especially when its shit ive already posted. then again im too lazy to read through my own posts sometimes to just quote myslef and i feel i might be able to present an idea in a different way that might make people see what im saying better. people are taking offense because they respect kabar and they dont like what i have to ssay about some of his views. but have you read some of his posts. some are just unbelievable. he seems like a cool guy and ive heard some really sharp shit some out of that guys posts but when it comes to topics like this hes just no where near reality. people dont understand that im not trying to say all americans are bad or even that the ones that do stupid shit do it intentionally. im saying that their way of life as a general people is not productive, its destructive. and it can be changed and its not the end of hte world to not be able to watch tv or have a different outfit to wear every single day. i dont even want to get into the processed foods people are eating in america. thats just fuckin nasty. we can save that for another time. but to make a change there would have to be some sacrifices but im confident that people would find theyre better off without a lot of the things they hold so dear. people think exercise is a burdon. ill admit that im not ALWAYS in the mood to be active and it can be hard to get into it, but after a couple days with a routine it makes you feel 10 times better. if people were creative and found something to do they wouldnt need to vegetate their brains in front of a box all day. people take almost everything they see on tv seriously when almost all of it is bullshit. again, i dont think people are going to change over night. im not even really that sure theyre going to at all (for the better at least). but i do think its possible if people can start questioning things more often and actually put some thought into the consequences of their behavior. and i do talk to a lot of people that i dont expect to share any of my opinions that end up having the exact opposite mentality of the one i expected. that shows me that people can still separate bullshit from truth with a little guidance and influence in the right direction. theyre just always hand fed what to think all the time that they dont even stop to consider some of the simplest concepts there are. so i like suggesting new ideas to people just because there is a possibility that they havent even thought of it before and it might make a lot of sense to them. did i make any impact on the world? no. maybe i did for that person a little. a lot of people on this board come at me like im writin what i expect of people. im just writing what i believe could, and should happen. not what i expect to happen and not what is going to happen. and im not saying i know some sort of outcome one way or another. im saying there needs to, and will be change one way or another and it is possible to influence the change for better or worse. people like bob marley and peter tosh who a lot of people consider to be uneducated, third world dummies came up with (or at least vocalized) some of the simplest concepts in the world and expressed them in a way that people could relate to. before hearing such a powerful message in such an inspiring and enjoyable way, their ideas didnt make any sense to people. ive got some skandalous stories about what happened to those two also. but ill save that for a thread sometime or something. im gonna throw on some bob.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by seeking both you and are2 are completely cluttering the issues with unecessary facts. yes, of course people have (slightly) different chemical make ups, physical features, and other distinguishing nuances, but in the grand scheme of things, thats completely irrelivent. what the guy who killed samantha was feeling, is the same thing you feel when you go out to paint. its obviously a different manifestation, but its an instinctual need to fullfill something. every human needs that. basically it comes down to this, i can give you roughly 5.6 billion examples of what im saying, until either of you can give me one example of a human being that does not to eat, sleep, have shelter, or seek something out of their existence, everything you're claiming is just a pervesion of the facts. you are simply broadening the defintions of human desires to include EVERY HUMAN DESIRE when you do that, how can we not all be alike..you are lumping every feeling together.. simply because every human needs certain things to live, namely, food and sleep, does not make us all alike.. all ANIMALS need those things...so we are all like dogs and birds???? and, i can guarrantee you that the guy who killed samantha has nothing in common with me going to paint take some philosophy courses before you try to get 'deep' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by --zeSto-- about shamans and priest-figures being the first "official" leader ranks in society I'm sorry but the first real leaders were the grandmothers of the tribe. Men went out hunting and all the children were raised by women. And the women we're way more likely to have strong spiritual connections. Which lead into the myth of the witch and the end of the ancient world. the first societies were EQUAL people lived as nomads, and there was not separation of duties like what you're talking about until later SOCIOLOGY 101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by --zeSto-- about shamans and priest-figures being the first "official" leader ranks in society I'm sorry but the first real leaders were the grandmothers of the tribe. Men went out hunting and all the children were raised by women. And the women we're way more likely to have strong spiritual connections. Which lead into the myth of the witch and the end of the ancient world. damn straight zesto. youre always on point boy. women have been dominant for most of human existance. its just the last couple thousand years that men have taken over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Are2 I have a BFA in Industrial Design. Yay! :) I also command the approval of the Jesus Potato. I just think that if those differences you mention are so huge, we'd have more than just one species of humans. As a whole, we all behave surprisingly alike, and the exceptions are incredibly rare. Beer, El Mamerro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 are2, im not sure but i dont think youre right about that. as with many species of animals the female was dominant because she carried on human existence and and passed on the males genes. i saw a bbc special on human behavior and it had some interesting ideas about why humans are lifelong partners, and, for the most part manogomous. most animals had one dominant male and a lot of females. but humans are one of the exceptions. since the female has to carry the child for such a long period of time (longer than any other animal i think), she is dependant on the male to provide protection, food, shelter..... the male, otherwise would not be relavent after fertilization; as is the case with many animals. he sticks around because the woman needs him and he wants his genes passed down. i cant remember too much of it but it was a cool program. it was either on bbc or national geographic. some tv channels that are actually still worth watching... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 well, since were all dropping our pedigre's, im a high school drop out with a handful of community college art and political science classes under my belt... what? im not painting with a 'broad' stroke to prove my point, im painting with the exact stroke it takes to encompass my argument. you're all playing a game of semantics to refute me, yet even in that, you've agreed with me. go back and re-read the crux of this whole argument; "people are all the same". not, people are all "exactly in every possible way" the same. my (only) point was that all people share the same needs and desires. to which none of you has even begun to discredit. i cant say it any simpler and plainer, so i'll just stop saying it and go get some chinese food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 http://www.adishakti.org/images/asd_mother_1.jpg'> Still not convinced that they we're "organized" government or religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jah Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by Are2 you are simply broadening the defintions of human desires to include EVERY HUMAN DESIRE when you do that, how can we not all be alike..you are lumping every feeling together.. simply because every human needs certain things to live, namely, food and sleep, does not make us all alike.. all ANIMALS need those things...so we are all like dogs and birds???? and, i can guarrantee you that the guy who killed samantha has nothing in common with me going to paint take some philosophy courses before you try to get 'deep' are2, when i was in amstched quite a bit of bbc specials. i have good reason for not remembering them in great detail but i can still get the point across somewhat. i also saw a special on a serial murderer/rapist. he has a serious mental illness (i dont knw what to call it really) where he was only sexually satisfied by slaughtering, then raping his victims. its like he has a voice in the back of his mind. he called it a monster. he has disdane for it, but he cant supress it. what drives humans? reproduction, sex, mainly. he didnt want to do those things at all but he couldnt control himself. if i remember correctly, he actally led the police to the bodies. maybe that was after he was caught, i dont know. but they interviewed him in his psych ward place (im lackin articulation right now because ive been up for about 22 hourse straight and ive been lackin sleep lately) after he had been under ongoing therapy for quite a while and he was saying that he could control this "voice" much better and it wasnt much of an issue anymore. especially being in the institution he was in. (i just remembered what it was about. testosterone. he had a testosterone problem where his testosterone rose to levels he couldnt control. a real medical condition that they treat with something that i cant remember the name of that supresses your level of testosterone). anyway, he said that he knew if he got out that voice would still be lurking in his mind somewhere. there was nothing he could to about. there are certain things that can affect the testosterone level a child will have when he is an infant and young child. it was a really interesting story too. it was just a sick desire. just like a sexual drive you or i get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest --zeSto-- Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by Are2 the first societies were EQUAL people lived as nomads, and there was not separation of duties like what you're talking about until later SOCIOLOGY 101 umm.. sorry but no... there have always been divisions. Women can have Babies, men dont. And nomads wandered in TRIBES! It's not like a Lion cub, tossed out to find the world. Hell... even with Lions, the women are the backbone of the tribe. LIFE 101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 its interesting that everyone brought up sex and reproduction, considering how many different approaches there are to these topics in modern society.. if everyone shared the same needs and desires, wouldn't that mean we all would reproduce? what about those who never have kids, because they are physically unable or because they don't want to? and as far as the serial killer, that is one case of a man who had way too much testosterone...and look at what it did to him..it made him utterly insane.. just becasue this same hormone is responsible for motivating others doesn't make their desires and needs the same obviously every man is governend at least partly by testosterone.. they aren't all out there killing to satisfy their desires.. and geez..should we even get started on the differences between men and women? it is easy to say that all people need certain things...food, sex, air, and sleep and then dismiss all of the differences that have evolved out of us in the past few thousand years as being trivial or superficial.. WHATEVER thanks jah, seeking, el mammero, cracked and everyone i forgot for making my day at work a lot more interesting.. and i agree, humans tend to behave like sheep..we all do the same shit, just with subtle variations..OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by --zeSto-- umm.. sorry but no... there have always been divisions. Women can have Babies, men dont. And nomads wandered in TRIBES! It's not like a Lion cub, tossed out to find the world. Hell... even with Lions, the women are the backbone of the tribe. LIFE 101 well, just telling you what i learned from a few professors of sociology years back in college. gee, they've only been researching this stuff for decades.. but whatever, you can be right if you want, i don't have time to reference.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest --zeSto-- Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 let me just settle this one point... the first societies were EQUAL sure they may have been equal in status, but women give birth, which gives a stronger connection to the child. perhaps your professors mentioned the 'mother-child-union' ? But you were talking about "seperate duties", and I totally agree that every member of the tribe had to contribute. But some had advantages over the others (like the ability to nurse a child) so the divisions existed as physical differences, even if they wanted to ignore them. and that's all I have to say about that.:idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DISCO BRYSO Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 the appetites of our soul, mind and body are unique from each other. therefore, seeking, it would make sense that humans could have the same bodily appetites, yet have very distinct preferences for their soul or mind. you seem to be talking about something sort of like the Maslow Grid, the basic hierarchy of needs. and I buy into that a great deal. which is why I felt that no one was saying anything. on a higher level though in our souls or in our minds, I think that there is an infinite number of possibilities for desire, perceived need or want. on a purely physical level I do agree with you. we all need clothing, food and shelter. it is really just a matter of your opinion on the nature of man. are we animals? or are we gods? PHILOSOPHY 101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fr8oholic Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by beardo dude.. fr8oh.. whats up this weekend? yeehaw is in town (see WATERFEST thread) you going? you got room? freights sound good.. HOLLA LIKE WOA! i am going for sure but i don't know seating arrangements and shit. as far as i know it's just me and my brother in my car right now but we're going dumb early to beat the crowds. you and *homeboy are welcome. i think hesh is trying to mack his way out here too. i'll ring you shortly beards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 disco an ar2 im sorry if i come off condescending, hollier than thou, or as if i view myself as better than anyone, it really isnt the case. in the 'heat' of an argument, certain characteristics take control, sometimes its hard to contain that. i dont doubt your (both) extensive knowledge of the subjects your talking about, and had we had a little clearer understanding of what i was trying to say from the begining, i think we would have found ourselves on much the same side of the fence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 all cool i actually like getting into these little discussions/debates i think it really helps me clarify what i think, and sometimes my opinion gets changed or broadened a little bit we really strayed from the original point of the thread but i am glad to see there's a few of us on the board trying to flex our mental muscles, and maybe even gain a greater understanding of ...stuff getting to knooooow you getting to knoooow all about youuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest --zeSto-- Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 haha! it's a 12oz sing-a-long ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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