Dawood Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 oh, and my condolences to the victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Originally posted by Dawood@Feb 28 2006, 09:47 PM I agree, the nationality of the person is important. But not the religion. (even if he is muslim) Islam isn't a nationality, it's a faith. And the faith of this person was not relevant to the story. His nationality, the location of where he lived, maybe, but to tie his actions to a religion was unnecessary. Quoted post Maybe I'm misunderstanding this but what about the Nation of Islam? I mean Jews believe they are a nation of people I kinda always thought that the same idea carried over to Islam.... Also you must have not caught my point at the end of my post. The religion answers "why". There is a understanding that the Jews and extremist Muslims do not get along. If they had just reported, "Some people from paris kidnapped and killed a Jewish man it would leave the question "why" still open. Money only answers the "why did they kidnap him?" question; not "why did they kill him?". I may not be an expert kidnapper but I think one would want to keep the subject in healthy condition. I mean if the persons dead the family wont give you any money. So we are back to the question "why was he killed?". We are left with a few options He could have been killed because his captours: were Neo-nazis saw him trying to escape got bored were frustrated that the family wouldnt pay were anti-jewish Islamic extremists We know the first ones not true. Theres no evidence of the second one. I doubt the third. The family was trying to pay so the fourth is a moot point. So the last one is up for the test: Where they muslim? Some. Did they have extremist views? Yes. Was the captour Jewish? Yes. Is there any reason to believe that he was killed for another reason other than his religious beliefs? Maybe, but all the evidence points towards it being a hate crime. Though it may be speculatory it still warrants a mention, especially because that is what the police are thinking. There initail motivation for kidnaping a Jewish person was based on anti-semetic slander; its not a far leap to guess why they killed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarekroe Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 After visiting Europe, along with reading the news about the place, I have come to the conclusion that Europe is 10x more racist than the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Originally posted by MAR+Mar 1 2006, 06:11 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MAR - Mar 1 2006, 06:11 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Feb 28 2006, 09:47 PM I agree, the nationality of the person is important. But not the religion. (even if he is muslim) Islam isn't a nationality, it's a faith. And the faith of this person was not relevant to the story. His nationality, the location of where he lived, maybe, but to tie his actions to a religion was unnecessary. Quoted post Maybe I'm misunderstanding this but what about the Nation of Islam? I mean Jews believe they are a nation of people I kinda always thought that the same idea carried over to Islam.... Also you must have not caught my point at the end of my post. The religion answers "why". There is a understanding that the Jews and extremist Muslims do not get along. If they had just reported, "Some people from paris kidnapped and killed a Jewish man it would leave the question "why" still open. Money only answers the "why did they kidnap him?" question; not "why did they kill him?". I may not be an expert kidnapper but I think one would want to keep the subject in healthy condition. I mean if the persons dead the family wont give you any money. So we are back to the question "why was he killed?". We are left with a few options He could have been killed because his captours: were Neo-nazis saw him trying to escape got bored were frustrated that the family wouldnt pay were anti-jewish Islamic extremists We know the first ones not true. Theres no evidence of the second one. I doubt the third. The family was trying to pay so the fourth is a moot point. So the last one is up for the test: Where they muslim? Some. Did they have extremist views? Yes. Was the captour Jewish? Yes. Is there any reason to believe that he was killed for another reason other than his religious beliefs? Maybe, but all the evidence points towards it being a hate crime. Though it may be speculatory it still warrants a mention, especially because that is what the police are thinking. There initail motivation for kidnaping a Jewish person was based on anti-semetic slander; its not a far leap to guess why they killed him. Quoted post [/b] As far as the nation of Islam goes, They are a group of black nationalists run by Louis Farakhaan. They beleive that the black man is God and the white man is the Devil (from that right there , we can conclude that they arent muslims , nor do they have anything to do with Islam.) They also beleive that God came in the person of a man from chicago named Master fard Muhammad and among their goals is to create a separate black nation (in America) but seperate from the rest of the country, governed by them. Theyre not muslims. But, to answer your questions, yes muslims do refer to themselves as an "ummah" literally translated as nation, but , not a nationality. If a person is Asian and he becomes muslim, he doesnt cease to be Asian after that. Anyway, you make some good points up there. But when you asked "Is there any reason to believe that he was killed for another reason other than his religious beliefs?" I'd say, yeah plenty of reasons. First off. Nowhere in the religion of Islam does the Quran or the teachings of Muhammad (peace be upon him) condone kidnapping, robbing and putting cigarette butts out on someone etc etc. It seems to me that to call it a hate crime is fair, but religiously motivated. Thats a faaar stretch and a speculation. Even if the suspect said "I did it for Allah" Islam would still be free from his actions because Islam doesnt condone his crimes and according to Islam, oppression is one of the worst sins. Oppressing anyone, not just muslims. Anyway, It's possible and reasonable to call it a hate crime since you know and I know and we know that relations between Muslims and Jews haven't been the best over the years (to say the least) But to call it religiously motivated is wrong (according to the story, and according to Islam) Because , again, It's forbidden in Islam to oppress even an animal, let alone a human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Thats fine I can accept that even if the kidnappers quoted scripture that they are not doing it with the permission of Islam and that their actions cannot be directly attributed to the scriptures. The thing is they kidnappers were accociated with Islam just like Neturei Karta is to Judaism and the KKK is with Christianity. We may not like it or agree with them but they claim to be a part of us and therefore their religion warrents a mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 The crime WAS religiously motivated. Dude was targeted bcause of his religion. Nowhere in the story did it even hint that the motivation of the crime was based on the perpetrators religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 the funny thing is.... I just did a quick google search on the KKK and here's an article from wikipedia that SURPRISINGLY doesnt let out hardly a peep about the klan's ties to christianity. KKK huh, that's odd. I read through almost all of it and couldn't find one reference to them being a christian organization. that's weird cnn doent mention them a christians either these guys don't think the kkk are very christian either oh, well, I guess christians wrote those articles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Originally posted by Smart@Mar 2 2006, 04:37 AM The crime WAS religiously motivated. Dude was targeted bcause of his religion. Nowhere in the story did it even hint that the motivation of the crime was based on the perpetrators religion. Quoted post How do you know he was targeted because of his religion? the only thing I saw was that they thought Jews have money, (which is a very common notion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Originally posted by Dawood@Mar 2 2006, 12:55 AM the funny thing is.... I just did a quick google search on the KKK and here's an article from wikipedia that SURPRISINGLY doesnt let out hardly a peep about the klan's ties to christianity. KKK huh, that's odd. I read through almost all of it and couldn't find one reference to them being a christian organization. that's weird cnn doent mention them a christians either these guys don't think the kkk are very christian either oh, well, I guess christians wrote those articles. Quoted post I guess you havent been to thier website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 plus they burn a cross....come on........ go here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Really, that's ALL you saw? I saw all this without hardly trying: Originally posted by MAR@Feb 25 2006, 10:03 PM Hate. ...in ensuing days, family members, Jewish organizations and a French magistrate labeled the killing a hate crime, directed against Halimi because of his religion. "The engine wasn't anti-Semitism, but the fuel certainly was," said Michel Wieviorka, author of the recent book "The Anti-Semitic Temptation: The Hatred of Jews in Today's France." "It was based on the idea that the Jews are wealthy, and that if the boy doesn't pay, the community will," Wieviorka said. Ruth Halimi, the victim's mother, told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, "If Ilan hadn't been Jewish he wouldn't have been murdered." French officials and Jewish leaders have been hesitant to allege that the killing was solely an act of anti-Semitism. "The question is, what kind of anti-Semitism are we talking about?" said Michel Serfaty, a rabbi at the synagogue in the Paris suburb of Ris-Orangis and an activist promoting Jewish-Muslim dialogue. "It's a combination of gangsterism, villainy and old cliches where Jews mean money," Serfaty said. "It's young people of all origins in the suburbs expressing their resentment: 'The Jews are rich and they don't share it with us. They're smart and we don't have jobs. They dominate the world and we have no power.' " Quoted post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Originally posted by MAR+Mar 2 2006, 05:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MAR - Mar 2 2006, 05:28 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Mar 2 2006, 12:55 AM the funny thing is.... I just did a quick google search on the KKK and here's an article from wikipedia that SURPRISINGLY doesnt let out hardly a peep about the klan's ties to christianity. KKK huh, that's odd. I read through almost all of it and couldn't find one reference to them being a christian organization. that's weird cnn doent mention them a christians either these guys don't think the kkk are very christian either oh, well, I guess christians wrote those articles. Quoted post I guess you havent been to thier website. Quoted post [/b] no, obviously, THEY claim to be christians, but when people report about them (probably christians) they don't mention them as christians. (according to the above articles) Most likely because whoever is reporting either doesn't want to associate christianity with the KKK or they just don't think the story deserves to mention the religion of the KKK, for whatever reason. I'm sure that's not the rule, but that just happens to be what I found when I was glancing around doing searches on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Originally posted by Smart+Mar 2 2006, 05:32 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smart - Mar 2 2006, 05:32 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Really, that's ALL you saw? I saw all this without hardly trying: <!--QuoteBegin-MAR@Feb 25 2006, 10:03 PM Hate. ...in ensuing days, family members, Jewish organizations and a French magistrate labeled the killing a hate crime, directed against Halimi because of his religion. "The engine wasn't anti-Semitism, but the fuel certainly was," said Michel Wieviorka, author of the recent book "The Anti-Semitic Temptation: The Hatred of Jews in Today's France." "It was based on the idea that the Jews are wealthy, and that if the boy doesn't pay, the community will," Wieviorka said. Ruth Halimi, the victim's mother, told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, "If Ilan hadn't been Jewish he wouldn't have been murdered." French officials and Jewish leaders have been hesitant to allege that the killing was solely an act of anti-Semitism. "The question is, what kind of anti-Semitism are we talking about?" said Michel Serfaty, a rabbi at the synagogue in the Paris suburb of Ris-Orangis and an activist promoting Jewish-Muslim dialogue. "It's a combination of gangsterism, villainy and old cliches where Jews mean money," Serfaty said. "It's young people of all origins in the suburbs expressing their resentment: 'The Jews are rich and they don't share it with us. They're smart and we don't have jobs. They dominate the world and we have no power.' " Quoted post Quoted post [/b] "If Ilan hadn't been Jewish he wouldn't have been murdered." -the victims mother "It's a combination of gangsterism, villainy and old cliches where Jews mean money," - Michel Serfaty, a rabbi so which one is it? You can't have it both ways. One of them says it's because they are gangsters trying to rob him because he has money and the other says it was because he was a jew. I'm sure his mother is being very objective and rational about his death, but I'm going with the rabbi on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 We can to have both... watch this... Gangsters robbed him because they thought he had money; based on the fact that he was a jew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishbel Bullen Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Originally posted by Dawood+Mar 2 2006, 07:51 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Mar 2 2006, 07:51 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Originally posted by Smart@Mar 2 2006, 05:32 AM Really, that's ALL you saw? I saw all this without hardly trying: <!--QuoteBegin-MAR@Feb 25 2006, 10:03 PM Hate. ...in ensuing days, family members, Jewish organizations and a French magistrate labeled the killing a hate crime, directed against Halimi because of his religion. "The engine wasn't anti-Semitism, but the fuel certainly was," said Michel Wieviorka, author of the recent book "The Anti-Semitic Temptation: The Hatred of Jews in Today's France." "It was based on the idea that the Jews are wealthy, and that if the boy doesn't pay, the community will," Wieviorka said. Ruth Halimi, the victim's mother, told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, "If Ilan hadn't been Jewish he wouldn't have been murdered." French officials and Jewish leaders have been hesitant to allege that the killing was solely an act of anti-Semitism. "The question is, what kind of anti-Semitism are we talking about?" said Michel Serfaty, a rabbi at the synagogue in the Paris suburb of Ris-Orangis and an activist promoting Jewish-Muslim dialogue. "It's a combination of gangsterism, villainy and old cliches where Jews mean money," Serfaty said. "It's young people of all origins in the suburbs expressing their resentment: 'The Jews are rich and they don't share it with us. They're smart and we don't have jobs. They dominate the world and we have no power.' " Quoted post Quoted post "If Ilan hadn't been Jewish he wouldn't have been murdered." -the victims mother "It's a combination of gangsterism, villainy and old cliches where Jews mean money," - Michel Serfaty, a rabbi so which one is it? You can't have it both ways. One of them says it's because they are gangsters trying to rob him because he has money and the other says it was because he was a jew. I'm sure his mother is being very objective and rational about his death, but I'm going with the rabbi on this one. Quoted post [/b] i found the fact that you said you cant have it both ways to be especially funny, coming from you. first you say you abhor violence and then you basically state that you support what some of them are doing around the world. then you say youre not anti-semetic, and then you have clearly stated in other threads that yes indeed you are. i smell a bit of a hypocrite in you dawood, isnt that bad for a muslim to be? i mean i havent ever read the koran, but from what i learned about it in school, i definately wouldnt want to be a hypocrite. why dont you quote some passages from the koran about hypocrites. you recite passages that no one cares about in other threads, so do it up here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 where have I said I was anti semetic? Just because I don't agree with the religion of the Judiasm doesn't make me anti semetic. I don't agree with christianity either does that make me anti christian? I don't agree with the hindus in terms of religion or buddhism or taoism, sihqism, does that make me anti-all of them? anyway, I do abhor violence, but some vioelence is justified. It really depends on the situation. In the Quran Allah talks about fighting as something that you hate, but that may be good for you. Then in another verse he talks about fighting in a negative light. It always depends on the situation and whether the fighting is justified. Everything is like that. Actions are by intention. Giving in charity are a good deed if done sincerely to do a good deed and seek Allah's pleasure by it, but what about the one who gives charity to show off? He turned that good deed into a bad one by showing off. Again, There's no hipocrocrasy in saying two different things at two different times that seem to oppose eachother because if you wanted to know what I meant you could've just asked me. Life isn't always black and white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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