Profit Over People

[where]

Its funny you little boys have political views but its ill advised

[abrasivesaint]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:17 AM, Mercer said:

The black flag indicates zero loyalty to a corrupt empire, or any nation, and isn't an endorsement of Socialism, or Communism. My unwillingness to acknowledge that a little bit of theft is OK is the same thing as a little bit of rape not being cool, or a little bit of assault, etc. It's not like I want people out on the street, I just know the alternative because of the unintentional consequences is worse.

 

 

As i know you are aware, it is a symbol of Anarchism. I think Free Market Capitalism, and Anarchist-Capitalism ends in one way, a Plutocratic-Corporatocracy enforced through, and by, Authoritarian-Capitalists. (China or Russia, as examples of current Authoritarian-Capitalist systems.) This means business corporations become the State(s), and enforce their own laws and penalties, (Donziger vs Chevron). Tort law penalties can be egregious, Iowa activists vs Dakota Pipeline as an example. Here the pipeline recouped any damages that were caused in less than a day, damages that a human being couldn’t pay back in a lifetime. You are attempting to remove the concept of corruption by taking power from the corrupted, and handing it to those that corrupt. All of this is in contrast to Anarchism. 

 

The market is not altruistic, it can be corrupted, and is corrupted, like anything else, by man, and in spite of, or through regulations. Remove these regulations entirely and the corruption will rain from the sky. You hold disdain and no loyalty for a corrupted empire, yet it is through the methods of Capitalism that incentivizes and drives the empire to be corrupt. I don’t believe a free market will be any different. In fact, i think it would be worse. 
 

Again, and as i’ve previously said, this does not mean i do not think Capitalism is without merit. I believe Capitalism has a purpose. 

 

[Mercer]

Only the religion of state claims society would end in a corporate plutocracy if not held in check by state power. Think about it, that's never even come close to ever happening ever, in all of human history. This imaginary threat of an inevitable authoritarian boogieman, was created by the very people advocating for a real authoritarian threat.

 

A silly notion. Throughout history the wealthy, the merchants, and the non-monarchal elite have always been subservient to monarchs, and the state. It's just not cost effective for a business to engage in warfare, or maintaining a monopoly on violence. The expense depletes any potential profit maintaining an authoritarian system can create. Centralized, authoritarian power is only profitable for monarchs, demagogues, and political/religious organizations that are able to make a claim of shared identity. In short people will never subjugate willingly subjugate to an authority that isn't tied to their identity, or fight and die loyally for an organization simply for paycheck.

 

I'd say the chances of the wealthy taking over a large populations without claiming the legitimacy of statehood,  and willing fanatical subjects is impossible from a cost vs benefit analysis perspective. With wealth, one can buy almost anything out there, but loyalty you have to either earn legitimately, or earn through an elaborate ruse, like state run schools grooming their subjects into believing, without question, they're protecting you from an imaginary boogieman. Imagine the very organization that creates, and maintains monopolies (the state) actually protects it's citizens from monopolies, and authoritarianism.

[ndv]

14 hours ago, where said:

What does this mean lol

 

What do you mean, I am confused?

[Dark_Knight]

 

[Mercer]

It took a lot of effort by both this threads author, and myself to turn this into an fairly engaging formal conversation. If you can muster together enough brain power to articulate a position, counter argument, etc. please contribute. If not please don't fuck up the thread.

[Dark_Knight]

Was gonna call you a nerd and not listen but you said please, so I will find my way to the door.

[abrasivesaint]

Supreme Court overturned the moratorium today, seen incredibly varying numbers of estimates of who will be effected. So i guess we’ll see how it plays out. 

 

@Mercer

[Mercer]

The fact that there's a labor shortage right now, and help wanted signs everywhere, I'm sure we'll be able to ween ourselves off from using legal theft as a solution. 

[abrasivesaint]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:10 PM, Mercer said:

Only the religion of state claims society would end in a corporate plutocracy if not held in check by state power. Think about it, that's never even come close to ever happening ever, in all of human history. This imaginary threat of an inevitable authoritarian boogieman, was created by the very people advocating for a real authoritarian threat.

 

Ahh i don’t know if i agree with that. You could even argue that it hasn’t happened because of intervention by the state.
 

I can’t imagine the “captains of industry” planned on slowing down anytime soon, and for an example of their use of Authoritarian enforcement, as i’ve previously expressed concern with, see the Homestead Strike. East India Trade Company also comes to mind off the top..

 

You can also argue that it has happened because of corrupted states, in the case of modern China. 

 

I’m not saying the state is the solution, but allowing corporations to become the state is certainly not the solution either. 

 

On 8/27/2021 at 1:10 PM, Mercer said:

A silly notion. Throughout history the wealthy, the merchants, and the non-monarchal elite have always been subservient to monarchs, and the state. It's just not cost effective for a business to engage in warfare, or maintaining a monopoly on violence. The expense depletes any potential profit maintaining an authoritarian system can create.

Raytheon and other military industrial complex styled organizations seem to be doing just fine. 

 

On 8/27/2021 at 1:10 PM, Mercer said:

 

Centralized, authoritarian power is only profitable for monarchs, demagogues, and political/religious organizations that are able to make a claim of shared identity. In short people will never subjugate willingly subjugate to an authority that isn't tied to their identity, or fight and die loyally for an organization simply for paycheck.

 

The folks who died in the frontier building railroads and the like may disagree. As well as the members of various drug cartels, or Somalian pirates. 
 

People will do what they have to when desperate. Workers are disposable and replaceable by corporation and government alike. 

 

On 8/27/2021 at 1:10 PM, Mercer said:

 

I'd say the chances of the wealthy taking over a large populations without claiming the legitimacy of statehood,  and willing fanatical subjects is impossible from a cost vs benefit analysis perspective. With wealth, one can buy almost anything out there, but loyalty you have to either earn legitimately, or earn through an elaborate ruse, like state run schools grooming their subjects into believing, without question, they're protecting you from an imaginary boogieman. Imagine the very organization that creates, and maintains monopolies (the state) actually protects it's citizens from monopolies, and authoritarianism.

I’m not denying the use of elaborates ruses to gain loyalty and conformity. Corporations are no different than the state here either. It’s called marketing. 

[Mercer]

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

 

Ahh i don’t know if i agree with that. You could even argue that it hasn’t happened because of intervention by the state.
 

 

You don't find it odd that you can't find any examples of this ever happening?

 

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

I can’t imagine the “captains of industry” planned on slowing down anytime soon, and for an example of their use of Authoritarian enforcement, as i’ve previously expressed concern with, see the Homestead Strike. East India Trade Company also comes to mind off the top..

 

East India CO was only able to do what it did through the violent power/force of the British military (The State). This is how fascism (our current setup) works. Government and industry become symbiotic. The military first has to establish a monopoly on violence by invading India, or Iraq. That monopoly can then in turn establish monopolies for businesses through regulation, and the business kicks back some profit to military leadership for keeping their interests in mind.

 

I've studied this situation pretty thoroughly, not so much because it supports my beliefs. More-so because Ghandi was able to shut it down through non-violent resistance, and counter-economic warfare which is central to Agorism.  Great example, salt was very much an unofficial currency in India, The Brittish shut down all salt production, and the citizens had to buy it from brittish companies. Economic slavery. One of Ghandi's most effective acts of resistance was him 

 

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

 

You can also argue that it has happened because of corrupted states, in the case of modern China. 

 

Corrupted, and state go hand in hand. There is no other type of state because all humans are imperfect, putting their personal aspirations ahead of the greater good when given the power/green light to do so.

 

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

 

I’m not saying the state is the solution, but allowing corporations to become the state is certainly not the solution either. 

 

Straw man, I've stated this corporation becoming a state business is just the nonsense a government school teaches.

 

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

Raytheon and other military industrial complex styled organizations seem to be doing just fine. 

 

How do you think they'd do if there wasn't a state?

 

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

The folks who died in the frontier building railroads and the like may disagree. As well as the members of various drug cartels, or Somalian pirates. 

 

Voluntary hierarchies the so called victims agreed to enter into. Not the state, or anyone else threatening violence to coerce them into it. Also, the drug cartels wouldn't exist were it not for government, and there's no system that eliminates crime, and crime syndicates. I can however claim that without the state outlawing legitimate business, like sex work, drugs, and other so called vices, these businesses would be operating much like any other business. The weed scene here is living proof.

 

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

People will do what they have to when desperate. Workers are disposable and replaceable by corporation and government alike. 

 

Correct.

 

7 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

I’m not denying the use of elaborates ruses to gain loyalty and conformity. Corporations are no different than the state here either. It’s called marketing. 

 

Corporations are different because it's a voluntary hierarchy. You choose to work for them, or do business with them (outside of examples where the state forces a monopoly etc.). 

[Mercer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March

 

One of the best examples of eliminating an authoritarian government almost exclusively through the use of counter-economics. Once you start starving the beast, or bleeding it through "a thousand paper-cuts" the system itself become unsustainable.

 

Another great example was the USSR falling because of counter-economic measures taken by it's own citizens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union

 

In short, violence is wrong outside of self defense, even if violence is being used for the so called "greater good". This includes using the threat of violence to change peoples behaviors. Agorism is the only political philosophy I've seen that holds this truth central.

[abrasivesaint]

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

You don't find it odd that you can't find any examples of this ever happening?

 

This is why laws were put in place, to try to stop it before it happens.. 

 

Monopoly laws were put in place in 1890, after years of worker strikes that resulted in bloodshed. Plot twist, many of the companies didn't want to supply better wages even though the companies were doing incredibly well, and some held monopolies in their respective industries. These companies used hired guns to break these union strikes that resulted in deaths. 

Again, look at modern day China, it’s happened. 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

 

 

East India CO was only able to do what it did through the violent power/force of the British military (The State). This is how fascism (our current setup) works. Government and industry become symbiotic. The military first has to establish a monopoly on violence by invading India, or Iraq. That monopoly can then in turn establish monopolies for businesses through regulation, and the business kicks back some profit to military leadership for keeping their interests in mind.

Do you not think this still happens, with or without the state? Mexican cartels do not give a fuck about a state, for example. They kill anyone who remotely interferes with business. I whole heartedly believe US corporations would be doing this much more in the open if they could. Instead they use the state to punish them through other various legal means. Removing the state in the scenario just leaves them at the mercy of the corporations, which has no such mercy. 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

Corrupted, and state go hand in hand. There is no other type of state because all humans are imperfect, putting their personal aspirations ahead of the greater good when given the power/green light to do so.

 

And you think free market corporations would be any different? 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

 

Straw man, I've stated this corporation becoming a state business is just the nonsense a government school teaches.

 

I don’t know what schools you went to, but i don't remember hearing anything to that effect from my schooling. These are all ideas i’ve concluded on my own. In fact, despite my school teacher arguing against me.  
 

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

 

How do you think they'd do if there wasn't a state?

 

Sell their products to billionaires and corporations, leaving us with a worse existence than we have now that you could write a plot for the next Robocop movie with. 
 

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

 

Voluntary hierarchies the so called victims agreed to enter into. Not the state, or anyone else threatening violence to coerce them into it.

 

That wasn’t the point though. You said.. 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 4:10 AM, abrasivesaint said:

In short people will never subjugate willingly subjugate to an authority that isn't tied to their identity, or fight and die loyally for an organization simply for paycheck.

To which i replied that the people who died on the Frontier may disagree with you. They in fact, sometimes fought and died, for a paycheck. 
 

Some of the Homestead strikers fought and died, for better wages. The Pinkertons, were hired, and fought and died, for a paycheck.  
 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

Also, the drug cartels wouldn't exist were it not for government, and there's no system that eliminates crime, and crime syndicates. I can however claim that without the state outlawing legitimate business, like sex work, drugs, and other so called vices, these businesses would be operating much like any other business. The weed scene here is living proof.

I agree. I will add though, that this means that the laws shouldn’t exist. 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 12:00 PM, Mercer said:

Corporations are different because it's a voluntary hierarchy. You choose to work for them, or do business with them (outside of examples where the state forces a monopoly etc.). 

Yes, currently. Remove the protections from workers and you may no longer have that choice, and we will have slavery. 

[abrasivesaint]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-chicago-auto-mechanics-strike-20210810-yzif4dvrpndr7p5xqky3lreuta-story.html
 

 

[abrasivesaint]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/lawyer-who-sued-chevron-sentenced-six-months-contempt-case-2021-10-01/
 

 

[abrasivesaint]

https://apnews.com/article/business-omaha-nebraska-memphis-michigan-d9185eb8fa9054d34a078063c3db6c33
 

 

[abrasivesaint]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/05/line-3-pipeline-enbridge-paid-police-arrest-protesters
 

 

[ClownPrince]

Haven't been down the rabbit hole in awhile - highschool Facebook friends are always good for a refresher.

https://rumble.com/vmyx1n-monopoly-who-owns-the-world-documentary-by-tim-gielen.html

[abrasivesaint]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/19/new-zealand-experiment-finds-4-day-work-week-a-success.html
 

4 day work weeks are far better than 5. Even working 4-11/hr days, i was happier than any 5-8 job i ever had. 

[mr.yuck]

Lol. I just read the Nabisco workers settled for a 28 cent raise for 2021 and a 60 cent raise for next year. That will maybe bring them up to $15 an hour on average. After  those several weeks of lost wages, these gains should have them breaking even sometime in 2023. All those years of union dues are finally paying off. Fucking suckers.

[abrasivesaint]

Sad face. 

[mr.yuck]

Hey I misread that. Looks like they are getting a 0.60 an hour raise every year but that doesn’t even keep up with inflation after their first raise. Fucking clown shoes. I think I’ll keep not buying their bullshit.

[abrasivesaint]

Sucks that it’s all they agreed to, but it’s better than nothing. Yearly “raises” are misleading, breaking even is more accurate. 

[Mercer]

I joined Local Union #3 (supposedly one of the best/most powerful) in NYC, and believed in the Union at first. After I started studying economics, I got into calculating my expenses, assets, and spending using software. Noticed that not only did I have to pay over $500 a year in dues, they took $16.75 an hour in compensation for my "health and well being", leaving me with around $34 an hour in compensation to take home. Great health benefits, but a very shit pension because for $16.75 an hour, I could have bought comparable family insurance for $1200 a month, and put the extra $1480 a month into my 401K, and that's not even including any overtime. Ended up fleeing Covid 13 in Feb 2020 and getting $42 an hour in an area with about 1/2 the cost of living as NYC because I wasn't being held back by average/below average performers that couldn't perform like I could but were getting paid the same. Best part is because I wasn't holding those extra retirement funds in a bullshit Union Pension account, or a 401k controlled by a totally different set of con artists, I was able to invest it myself, and get much better returns. Needless to say, large unions always puts the leadership's profits, over their own people. If you're able to, your best bet is doing excellent work, and negotiating your own compensation based on the results. 

[abrasivesaint]

I know many, many people that may disagree and love their union gigs. More and more people that i know have been joining unions.
 

I’m sure we all agree that there’s a lot of factors to what may or may not be best for you. Some people don’t want the headache of dealing with their own investments, taking their own risks and being knowledgable about the topic. i personally have found much more interest in it in recent years, partially because of discussions here, but i also have the time and funds to figure things out. I also have only me to worry about, so if those investments don't pan out, well, looks like i’ll be working until i die. 
 

I will say, due to “across the board” set wages in unions in my field, i have turned down 1 job in the past, and may be turning down another shortly. There’s a lot of factors to those set wages though. Including the (in my opinion) old thinking of “skilled labor”. Technically, i could pull someone off the street and they could do my job, eventually. It’s actually my story in the field. But, it’s not like sweeping a floor, or setting up a room, or picking and packing. If i fuck up at my job you could die in surgery, get a serious infection, have other complications, ect. There’s a lot of stuff to know.. regulations, protocols, instrumentation and equipment, ect. The certification that has become more commonly required in the job is not easy to pass either. I’ve met 1-3 people in 10 years who passed the test on the first try. Yet compared to other jobs that have FAR less consequences to their fuck ups, we don’t get paid the best. The best wages are in major cities, and those particular cities have incredibly high costs of living that the field simply does not pay adequately for. 
 

Honestly, much of the healthcare industry doesn’t get paid adequately, imo. Hospitals everywhere have been feeling the results of this in the past few years. I’ve been talking about this on here for years, and it’s only getting worse from what i’ve been seeing.
 

if i didn’t have to be in this region for a little while i could be making much more money traveling, working at hospitals as a contractor. The reasons there’s so many open positions that they fill with contractors is because the hospitals don't pay well, it’s high stress, there’s a lot to know, and they expect you to work long hours or overtime. You very, very rarely have any bargaining power with your management so people leave. When you have bargaining power is when all those people do leave, and you’re still standing and a good worker, that’s about it. So, the hardy people stay in the field, and they bring in contractors, which get paid a lot more money, and cost the hospital FAR more sums of money. If they simply paid their old employees better, they wouldn’t have half of the issues they have. Every single person i know that has left this field has been because “Fuck this. This isn’t worth it.” But, it’s a hospital, people think anything the medical field is a “good job” and so there’s a constant flow of new hires. New hires that very rarely last. 

 

The turnaround rate is very high. We just had a new hire quit in 4 days because he “felt like a slave”. Granted, that kid was 19 and a little baby back bitch, but he’s not entirely wrong, even though “slave” is obviously an exaggeration and inaccurate term in the situation. 

[abrasivesaint]

For the record, that’s not looking for any sort of sympathy or whatever. I know/knew what i need/needed to do to make more money in the field. 

[abrasivesaint]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/john-deere-employees-strike-thursday

[abrasivesaint]

https://qctimes.com/news/local/update-uaw-wants-temporary-injunction-in-deere-strike-to-be-vacated/article_9b0f4f75-39ae-5d82-827d-782d4273cd44.html

[misteraven]

I’m going to chime in for a sec. As you guys probably guessed, assuming you noticed my absence, is I’ve been busier than fuck. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, I’m in the middle of a huge expansion of our print business. Can’t recall if I’ve given specifics yet, but we’re relaunching as a premier showcase facility for one of the most respected equipment manufacturers in that industry. We’re getting in several new presses, importing a bunch of high end embroidery equipment, converting our prepress to a fully digital, laser based imaging system, automating all our fold / pack, expanding our finishing to include all Juki industrial equipment as well as bringing in some other high end equipment… One piece of kit is the only of its kind in North America and with how it’s configured will be one of a handful globally. I’ll loop back to it in a proper post, but that piece of kit alone is almost 7 figures. I’m projecting that by about this time next year, we should have a staff of between 35 - 50 people. That is assuming I can find those employees. 
 

Today I had a kid quit on me. He’s less than 6 months out of high school. He worked for me last summer, then picked up again maybe 3 months ago. He started at $15 an hour. I pay time and a half for OT. We have an assortment of free drinks in a fridge at the shop, as well as an assortment of snacks ranging from chips to trail mix. On a regular basis we provide pastries in the morning and occasionally provide lunches. I also pay bonuses when I see someone really step up or if people come through when I ask for an extra push on a priority job. 
 

Anyhow, today I had an hour long catch up with this person, which was mostly me trying to smooth out some shitty attitude I was picking up on. Dude is pretty consistent. Usually shows up within 10 minutes of when he’s supposed to. Only occasionally doesn’t show up, but doesn’t usually provide a heads up. He is a diligent worker… Pretty much puts on headphones and keeps focused on his job all day. I let him bring his dog to work most days cause his parents won’t watch it. Most the time I ask him to handle some task, he gets on it. Anyhow, that’s the back story so you guys have a little context. When I asked him if he was good, it turned into an hour long conversation that centered on him being worth a lot more per hour. I explained in general terms how my costing model works, as well as some basics about business in general. His response was that McDonald’s pays $16 hour, for basically doing nothing. That he can show up as he pleases and not get fired because their desperate for workers. That he knows kids lol hat work there and that Heuer smoking weed and eating fries half the day and don’t give a fuck, because they’re unlikely to get fired and if they do, the next spot will probably pay more anyways. Kid literally told me if I’d spend a few days showing him the controls on the press, that he can run it. That he should be making as much in salary as the OG pressman I just hired out of state. When I questioned how he factors in the 26 years of press experience the pressman has, he shrugged his shoulders and told me that if he can make it run, he deserves it. 
 

In any case, I heard him out and then told him I appreciate his contributions and good look with his future endeavors. Reality is I’m already up against retarded deadlines and the was a kick in the nuts. 
 

I’ll also say I’ve had four other employees quit in the last couple months. One simply never showed up again. Come to find out he got hired at a dispensary for $2 an hour more, then got let go a week later. Saw him last Friday night and dude isn’t working. Other kid decided he’s going to focus on his rap career. (Yes really). He’s home with his parents “making beats”. Other kid was a good dude… Quit because an apprenticeship to be a plumber came through. Last person quit because they just don’t want to work. They clean houses twice a week at $50 an hour. 
 

My current pressman took 5 months to find. I’m paying him about $20k over industry average. I paid for his move as well as two months of his rent. I’ve paid a $1000 bonus for one weekends work on top of all that. Seems to be pretty capable, though he’s a little rough around the edges and might be someone you’d probably say isn’t a “people person”. 
 

My last pressman, also from out of state, also paid above industry average, we provided child care for and even though we’re a young family owned and relatively new business. This dude fucked a job up so bad, that fixing the situation cost me exactly $100,000. Not exaggeration… He lied about what he was doing, fumbled a job completely and then quit as soon as I caught on. Packed his shot and disappeared, leaving me with a $100k mess. This particular guy was about the 35th person I called. Many said they weren’t down ti travel. Probably 60% or so of these 35 people said something along the lines of, “I make almost as much playing call of duty all day as I did operating”. That once you factor in “the cost of driving to work and eating lunch”, that they were doing better sitting home. 
 

——————

 

Anyhow, I’ll m only sharing my own personal experiences. Not shot I read from MSM, not some shit that showed up on my social media feed. Not whatever narrative some ass hat in DC claims. No doubt this is a small slice of reality she may or may not be the case in general out there. But based on my direct experience, shit is fucked. People do not want to work. It’s not about living wages or some moral crusade. It’s an entitled attitude that’s been amplified exponentially by an absolutely unreal dynamic. This situation will indeed go nowhere good and it has virtually nil to do with billionaires or successful corporations like Amazon. The whole system is fucked and the fault lies at the individual level. Both in terms of voting in the assholes we’ve seen, left and right, as well as an attitude that anyone is owed anything beyond what they can provide themselves. 
 

Anyhow, shitty fucking day but thought I’d share a little insight on personal experiences. This kid today literally blew my mind and seems to me that his attitude is unfortunately more the norm, than the exception considering I keep seeing the same thing everywhere. 
 

Sorry but unskilled labor, especially provided by an individual that is barely even an adult, is rarely even worth $15. I can respect capitalism, market rates and the freedom of willing individual transactions. Obviously nobody is holding a gun to my head. But reality is what we are seeing is an absolute anomaly. The world is upside down after decades of manipulation and a proliferation of entitlement, as well as a general behavior of passing the buck in responsibility. It’s always someone else fault. Shit is going to come home to roost eventually. But meanwhile I get to listen to a 19 year old kid tell me that his time is worth as much as that of a 26 year veteran and if he isn’t going to get paid the equivalent, that he’ll go make $16 hour to smoke weed in the kitchen of McDonald’s on the days he even decides to show up. 
 

Shit is fucked. 
 

*And indeed, I’m hiring many key positions. If interested HMU. 

[mr.yuck]

Jesus Christ man. You’re better than me. I fired all of my employees and cut ties with 90% of my subcontractors within the last year. I don’t have the patience to deal with these attitudes and the general bullshit that comes along with relying on other people.