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Tonight’s debate.


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@misteravenI dont know how else to classify him. If you are comparing him to people responsible for genocide, then he pales in comparison. How ever, for all the small businesses that completed contract work for him and were forced into bankruptcy because it was cheaper for Trump to burry them in litigation than to pay his bills, they might see him as a monster. For all the people that wanted to get a leg up in life and gave stupid money to his bullshit university only to be tought nothing, he's a monster. For every act of tenant intimidation he had committed, he's a monster. For every person that knows him to be a piece of shit and isnt afraid to say so only to be met with a 100 mil dollar lawsuit. Fuck him. His own wife knows he's a monter and that's why she curves him every chance she gets.

 

The man leaves economic ruin in his path for his personal gain. He silences his opposers with soul crushing litigation. He views human beings as objects to be conquered just like the most terrible people and groups on your list.

 

I know you arent defending trump, but playing devils advocate with him seems to be a weird hill to die on to me.

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The difference between Antifa and the Proud Boys is that one is undercover and the other is off duty.    

Now we're talking. 

Didn't watch.  0 fucks given or lost.      

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5 hours ago, where said:

Is calling Biden a wet noodle a compliment can’t tell, like most noodles are served wet so it’s kinda like saying you feel like he would make a good president or a satisfying meal.

Flaccid.

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On 10/2/2020 at 7:10 PM, misteraven said:

Unsure I'm actually understanding that first sentence, but if so... Where are you gathering that Proud Boys are fighting for "white hegemony". That term in itself is just a synonym for white supremacy. I've stated before that so far, I'm not seeing evidence of that, only mainstream media and social labeling them as such. I've provided several examples to show that many of their members aren't even white, which is absolutely conclusive evidence considering we can look at history and see how Italy was an ally to Nazi Germany despite not bearing the characteristics defined as being inherent to the "master race", but it certainly would make me question that they're white supremacists. Since I can't find any evidence of them announcing any sort of racist rhetoric, let alone inciting violence against people of color or minorities, I'd be curious to know if you've seen evidence that I have not that has led you to that conclusion? If so, please share though my posts have tried to bring focus on how both groups are being positioned and not at all promoting or criticizing either. Your second sentence mentions useful cooperators, which is a much different thing than literal core members being people of color or in one instance married with kids to a women of color. But again, you're making a conclusive statement and I'm hoping you might be able to share the evidence of it. (Side note, I do mean that with all due respect and not as the usual internet bickering to just throw the burden of proof on you. I'm very curious about it as its the dominant narrative out there, yet after extensive searching, I cant find evidence of them being racist. In fact, compared to Antifa, I can't even really find evidence of them being particularly violent either. Kind of makes sense logically that if you got a bunch of dudes open carrying guns, that if there was any expectation, let alone track record for actual violence, they probably wouldn't be allowed to keep showing up and rallying while loaded down with guns and tactical gear. But again, I can't find the evidence so maybe you or another member can share it?). Also, outside of government itself all violence is extrajudicial, but again, where's the videos showing them partaking in violence. Closest I got was the articles about John Kinsman being arraigned for a street brawl he got into in New York. Nobody shot, nobody stabbed, no one dragged from a car, not even much mention of anything other than the broad statement that he was in a street brawl.

 

As for the last sentence, you're again making an assumption. You call it a "dog whistle", which is much different than a statement of fact. It doesn't preclude that its certainly possible, but I believe you can also make an argument that perhaps their ideology is rooted in what we might refer to ass classic American values. Obviously we might also say that racism could be a thread in the fabric of the Nation, but then again, so can apple pie, baseball games and the nuclear family. Same way I wouldn't automatically judge a person of color or a person from the middle east or wherever else, unsure why we should be so quick to judge a white person. Stereotypes seem like a precursor to bias and discrimination yet everyone is quick to assume a white guy with a beard cosplaying in tactical gear must be a racist. But again, many of these guys aren't even white.

agreeing with me on this issue actually requires believing two things that you may or may not be down with:

 

1. that it is reductive, if not willfully ignorant, to limit a contemporary understanding of racism to calling strangers slurs and burning crosses. you're right in understanding that white hegemony and white supremacy can be correlated here. racism is everywhere and held up by institutions that perpetuate white supremacy and The Order Of Things As They Are, mostly in the interest of self preservation. racism and white supremacy can be found everywhere you look. think:

- the american criminal justice system

- building roads and power plants in and through black and brown neighborhoods 

- flipping and gentrifying black neighborhoods in high-demand cities while white neighborhoods bear none of the burden of population growth 

- our ongoing treatment of native american reservations 

- and more! so much more. 

 

2. that any organization that says it is anti political correctness and interrupts gay and trans pride marches and espouses "when men were men and women were women" and rides out to black lives matter protests to fight people and prints shirts to cheer kyle rittenhouse is not subtle! very loud, in fact! about where they are on various people that the nazis thought should be exterminated, not just white supremacy. the color of your skin doesn't matter when you are aiding and abetting shit like this; you've become the oppressor, congratulations. 

 

you, personally, need to be deliberately avoiding all of this to deploy the kind of gentle circling you've been in this thread, and that alarms me. as someone who is very "show me the evidence" none of this is particularly hard to find. i'm not going to join the fine folks on gab to prove you wrong either. 

 

proud boys were there at charlottesville chanting "jews will not replace us." law enforcement agencies and groups who track and monitor extremists routinely lump the proud boys in with atomwaffen and other whites supremacist groups and they all congregate in the same online spaces and do cool shit like this (screenshot attached.) 

 

here are a lot of cool quotes from proud boys founder gavin mcinnes as a chaser in which he says things like "muslims are stupid, the only thing they respect is being tough" and argues for new crusades. he recorded a video called "10 things i hate about jews" which is also probably not good? you tell me here 

 

anyway! if you're going to handwave away all of this as "mainstream media, painting an agenda, sorry" we don't have anything more to talk about here because i get where you don't want to go. 

 

 

 

 

33EC8EA9-D88F-46AF-A8DC-F2EF193DEBD8.jpeg

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I had written up a pretty lengthy response to this but I found myself getting lost on what points I was trying to make so I'm starting over.

 

My opinions going into the debate were I was planning of voting Biden. Like pretty much everyone else I know, we're planning on voting Biden because the the general "Fuck Trump" opinion most folks I'm around have had.  I will openly admit I do not know much on politics. This seems to be another one of those things no one wants to admit much like managing money/wealth. People tend to get overwhelming passionate about it and feel like they know all the secrets but it's such an overwhelmingly large system with so many cogs and whistles its impossible to navigate, Every time I've gotten interested in it, it has left me left with frustration and apathetic. 

 

I tuned into the debate for about 20 minutes. I think we can all agree it was a bit of a shit show.  Both candidates behaved pretty poorly. The highlights that I have seen have mostly centered around Biden looking into the camera lens and Trump not rejecting far right radicals. I saw the section where Trump didn't shun the white supremacists and Biden claim the police supported him but then he couldn't name a single agency that was on his side.  

 

My take away was that Biden looked weak and frail and incapable.  I'm not saying Trump looked amazing but he appeared more capable of the job.

How can the democrats take an election that some would argue should be a slam dunk and put in someone even older. Trump and Biden are both in their 70s. most of us know people that age. would you trust them if you sent them to the store to bring back the correct product. Most are a bit sketchy even driving at that age. How in the hell did the democrats just push someone in thats in their 50s and sit back and coast to victory?!?

 

Going in, i was 100% going with Biden and now I'm very much on a three way split from Biden, Trump, Third Party. 

 

Sadly the social media and news sites have turned into one of the worst places to try to find information.  Theres no middle ground and the culture of both republicans and democrats is shit. people are so polarized right now if you ask something that is counter to their popular belief you either get called a racist or a socialist. If you are voting for Trump they think that you obviously are racist and want to return to the the times where you could own a slave. If you are voting for Biden then you clearly think this should be Soviet Russia and good luck in the bread line.

 

Over the last few years I've found news articles from major publications that state one fact in their headline but when you read the article, it has little to support the claim and sometimes nothing at all. This has lead people to go searching for answers in areas that may have never considered. 

 

I'd like to propose a challenge.

Take the candidate you are not going to vote for.

Research the reasons your are not voting for them and see if they are even true or find reasons that you would vote for them and are those things true. 

 

In theory, both should have some redeeming qualities. you may want to focus on the VPs for this since as old and frail as these guys are looking, the VP will probably be carrying the load.

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we're kinda bleeding into the social media thread at that point, but it's all connected, so fuck it.

 

promoting extreme viewpoints is good for site traffic and gets people to spend more time on news sites and on facebook; they know this. that's why it's all you see. and the headlines on news articles don't match the content because it's actually someone else's job to write that headline and optimize it for organic search and clicks. (i used to work in news.) this is a bad practice! but because people expect news for free, publishers can only pay themselves with traffic, and as facebook squeezes those margins they (news publishers) get desperate. 

 

obviously none of this serves anyone. there's a reason turnout keeps dropping despite how much you see online about the election. it's that we're reaching fewer people with our political system. 

 

in my experience the best antidote to feeling despondent re: radicalization in media and social media is talking to a range of people with diverse experiences and opinions. no real people are 100% anything, or 100% knowledgeable, and knowing that reassures me.

 

as an example, i sort of fit the mold on the democratic socialist platform but break in plenty of places—i really like the conservative proposal to make taxes so easy you can do them on a postcard, for example. i am the son of two reagan republicans, one of whom grew up on a beef farm. i know cops and criminals and a guy who is an air force flight instructor on planes he can't talk about. i know folks whose parents aren't here legally and people who've been brought back to life with narcan. all of them have a diverse range of views that expand and enhance my experience.

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On 10/3/2020 at 6:00 PM, Elena Delle Donne said:

agreeing with me on this issue actually requires believing two things that you may or may not be down with:

 

1. that it is reductive, if not willfully ignorant, to limit a contemporary understanding of racism to calling strangers slurs and burning crosses. you're right in understanding that white hegemony and white supremacy can be correlated here. racism is everywhere and held up by institutions that perpetuate white supremacy and The Order Of Things As They Are, mostly in the interest of self preservation. racism and white supremacy can be found everywhere you look. think:

- the american criminal justice system

- building roads and power plants in and through black and brown neighborhoods 

- flipping and gentrifying black neighborhoods in high-demand cities while white neighborhoods bear none of the burden of population growth 

- our ongoing treatment of native american reservations 

- and more! so much more. 

 

2. that any organization that says it is anti political correctness and interrupts gay and trans pride marches and espouses "when men were men and women were women" and rides out to black lives matter protests to fight people and prints shirts to cheer kyle rittenhouse is not subtle! very loud, in fact! about where they are on various people that the nazis thought should be exterminated, not just white supremacy. the color of your skin doesn't matter when you are aiding and abetting shit like this; you've become the oppressor, congratulations. 

 

you, personally, need to be deliberately avoiding all of this to deploy the kind of gentle circling you've been in this thread, and that alarms me. as someone who is very "show me the evidence" none of this is particularly hard to find. i'm not going to join the fine folks on gab to prove you wrong either. 

 

proud boys were there at charlottesville chanting "jews will not replace us." law enforcement agencies and groups who track and monitor extremists routinely lump the proud boys in with atomwaffen and other whites supremacist groups and they all congregate in the same online spaces and do cool shit like this (screenshot attached.) 

 

here are a lot of cool quotes from proud boys founder gavin mcinnes as a chaser in which he says things like "muslims are stupid, the only thing they respect is being tough" and argues for new crusades. he recorded a video called "10 things i hate about jews" which is also probably not good? you tell me here 

 

anyway! if you're going to handwave away all of this as "mainstream media, painting an agenda, sorry" we don't have anything more to talk about here because i get where you don't want to go. 

 

 

 

 

33EC8EA9-D88F-46AF-A8DC-F2EF193DEBD8.jpeg

Kinda got busy and also kinda just wanted to step away. Been trying my best to not get stressed over stuff that at the end of the day, I have zero control over and remain mindful of my attempts at not wasting efforts in my circle of concern, since doing so comes at the direct expense of my circle of control. Side note... I strongly suggest you guys take time to listent o this podcast that does a much better job explaining this topic than I could: http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/that-which-you-can-change

 

That being said, I'm curious if you recognize how your reply is largely proving my point?

 

You've begin by trying to define systemic racism. Fair enough, but unsure why you're doing so when the focus I keep trying to draw is in the unequal presentation "marketing" of two opposing groups that are in the media spotlight right now; Antifa and Proud Boys. I've repeated many times, even several times in the same comment that I'm not a supporter or critic of either. My intention is simply to show that the media is disingenuously covering the subject and based upon the evidence I'm suggesting that there is an obvious bias at play. Perhaps you can say both are the culmination of systemic racism, but if we are to truly discuss systemic racism, it sort of circles us back to Biden if we're discussing the two candidates. I can see the argument that Trump has likely enabled racists, but we cant forget Biden and his Crime Bill of 1994 is a literal cornerstone for systemic racism. Not theoretically, not an opinion, but fact. We can see how that legislation was a huge catalyst that disproportionately affected black and minorities. Further to that, despite being vice president for 8 years, under the first black president no less, makes me wonder why neither through a majority in Congress that held for a time between both terms, never made any effort to roll that back. Likewise, Biden has a long track record, and by track record I mean exactly that as a senior legislator for 50 years, that points to instance after instance of direct racism. Even to this day, he blunders out statements that require a hell of a trapeze act to not see as straight racism. 

 

But again, the topic is the disingenuous and bias presentation by the media, to which you you're using mainstream media articles as evidence that the Proud Boys is a racist organization. I spent a fair bit of time to investigate and post screen grabs showing the way both are being presented. How Proud Boys, despite having existed for a fraction of the time Antifa has, and really has only been a topic at the national; level for the last couple months, has somehow generated 2200+% more online media coverage than Antifa and almost 5x more than BLM, which has been a national conversation since shortly after Kaepernick took a knee during a televised NFL game on Aug. 27, 2016. 

 

Beyond that, we've all seen the protest (riot) videos showing literal battles between Antifa and cops. We've seen traffic stopped, people dragged from cars at these events. We've seen businesses looted and block and blocks of cities burned out. We've also seen shootings occur both as a racist response to Antifa as well as Antifa taking premeditated action towards counter protesters. We've seen two individual cases of Antifa laying siege to literal blocks of cities, as well as have seen how these controlled areas descended into violence and at least one murder.

 

Buy what I have yet to see is anything even close to approaching that, caught on video and demonstrating how Proud Boys are specifically violent and clearly racist. I've seen a shit load of articles, lost of stats, plenty of talking points reaching towards circumstantial evidence that leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the Proud Boys are racist. Honestly, I would expect to see at least a video or two that show it. At least a few images showing them interacting with an obviously and open racist group. On both sides of this debate we've seen outliers that aren't necessarily representative the organization they're supposed to be representing. But I'm not even seeing that on the Proud Boys side so far, which again begs the question of how what we see with our own eyes is not at all similar to what we're being told by mainstream media. Again, they said the sky is red, but I can see with my own eyes its blue, so I have to wonder where the discrepancy is and why.

 

It honestly shouldn't take a lot of convincing, especially on a forum like this, to convince anyone that maybe the mainstream media is full of shit and though society as a whole has yet to accept the various smoking guns that exist as evidence that there is very clear bias by them, that we might take a more skeptical position than general society at large. For example, I'd assume we can all likely agree that Jeff Bezos is probably among the most successful business men in history seeing as he's personally worth tens of billions of dollars and with Amazon, is worth something like a trillion dollars. So why would a billionaire like him decide to buy the Washington Post when we all also know that print media is all but dead and for at least a decade or longer we've heard about top tier newspapers like them and the New York Times struggling financially to the point that they need bailouts and sponsors to keep from going out of business. Would be an odd place to spend money of the desire is philanthropy, so what else would it be? Obviously this is speculation on my part and not a statement of fact, but then again, it does beg the question. Me pointing out that I have yet to see the array of videos of Proud Boys being violent, let alone violent and racist and me also pointing out that they've been covered by online media 2200+% more than Antifa does comes from that same place.

 

Hopefully I've been clear enough that those still reading can understand what I'm communicating here. Also, don't take my word for it... I encourage you to do your own investigations, postulate your own theories and obviously draw your won conclusions. Most importantly, I en courage you guys to take skeptical positions because the media is lying to you and social media is only facilitating it.

 

 

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yeah we're clearly talking past each other at this point so i'ma drop this clip of dude throwing the "white power" sign at a proud boys rally and dip back to the nonsense thread where i'm from.

 

 

lot of normal shit in this clip, just guys being dudes, not masturbating 

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4 minutes ago, Elena Delle Donne said:

yeah we're clearly talking past each other at this point so i'ma drop this clip of dude throwing the "white power" sign at a proud boys rally and dip back to the nonsense thread where i'm from.

 

 

lot of normal shit in this clip, just guys being dudes, not masturbating 

so one outlier? cmon man you can do better than that 

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6 minutes ago, Elena Delle Donne said:

yeah we're clearly talking past each other at this point so i'ma drop this clip of dude throwing the "white power" sign at a proud boys rally and dip back to the nonsense thread where i'm from.

Fair enough, kinda feel the same way to be honest. But I'd like to mention that I addressed this in my response to you. There's bound to be outliers, always. We see a couple dumbasses flash the okay gesture that has been appropriated a secret white power symbol. Though there's a lot of references out there that say otherwise, I'd agree with you that in this context it likely is intended as a racist symbol. But likewise, for every the couple times that we saw this flashed, I also saw a member of Proud Boys that was clearly not white. We saw a little testosterone on display as well, but kinda hard to call that out as violence if we're to compare it to what we've been seeing at "mostly peaceful protests". Sorry man, if this is the smoking gun that is intended to prove that the Proud Boys organization are the "neo-fascists, violent, white supremacists" group that mainstream media is marketing that as, I'm still far from conveinced. And yet again, I'm disclaim that I have any support at all for them... Seriously. If it turns out its the KKK reincarnated, I'll be happy to stand corrected and will acknoledge it without reservation. It still won't take away from the main point I've been tryuing to make all along, which is the media has a very clear bias, which is being facilitated and spread through social media, which in turn is having a significant impact on why the nation is tearing itself apart. At the very least, the media should be allocating equal coverage to the extremism that is so evident at a great many of the Antifa "peaceful protests" as well as classify them as violent extremists, since it's sort of becoming more often the rule, than the exception. At least whenever they're confronted by anyone that doesn't toe the line in regards to an ideology that clearly has the underpinnings of marxism, if not communism. It's not even alluded or implied, they're literally waving flags with the hammer and sickle.

 

Lot of videos out there, but here's some photos to highlight my point. There's thousands of these all over the place and just as many videos. Yet, this group isn't presented as violent and rarely even referred to as extreme. Still can't find anything even in the ball park regarding Proud Boys and yet if we go off their description in mainstream media, one would expect to find similar photo and video that would be orders of magnitude worse than this, if we're to go off descriptions and presentation.

 

CNN-Headline-Fiery-2.jpg

 

Antifa-BLM-Communists-1024x580.jpg

 

portland-riots-protests-continue.jpg

 

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1 minute ago, Elena Delle Donne said:

my long ass post earlier was all about how this isn't an outlier and is baked in! but it's cool i didn't read it after i posted it either 

Not sure if this is directed at me, but hope it was obvious that I read your response and also that I tried to respond respectfully.

 

 

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To add a little levity to this so we can all sort of take it down a notch, thought I'd post this picture of Trump secretly flashing the black power symbol.

 

Maybe just pandering for the black vote.

 

GettyImages_1222924764.jpg

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17 hours ago, morton said:

The difference between Antifa and the Proud Boys is that one is undercover and the other is off duty.

 

 

One loves being pounded in the ass by raw dog totalitarian dicks, the other just asks for a pullout, it's not rocket science. Pretty simple stuff.

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