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Tonight’s debate.


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5 minutes ago, NightmareOnElmStreet said:

He has in the past and currently supports people like David duke and the rest of those wing nuts.

Is he though? just playing devils advocate here but he’s designated the kkk down as a terrorist organization. Obama didn’t do that. 

 

Sure the proud boys are chauvinists and nationalists. I don’t think you could qualify an org with members of all races as ‘white supremacists’ though. 

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The difference between Antifa and the Proud Boys is that one is undercover and the other is off duty.    

Now we're talking. 

Didn't watch.  0 fucks given or lost.      

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The David Duke shit is 'fake news.' He endorsed Trump, also endorsed Pat Buchanan and Ross Perot. Trump is on record calling David Duke a racist piece of shit multiple times initially  in 1990 when duke lost the senate race in Louisiana but got the popular vote of white folk. If Trump dominates the new cycle long enough with this shit it keeps the democrats from pitching their mirage for the future and they will lose. 

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1 minute ago, where said:

The David Duke shit is 'fake news.' He endorsed Trump, also endorsed Pat Buchanan and Ross Perot. Trump is on record calling David Duke a racist piece of shit multiple times initially  in 1990 when duke lost the senate race in Louisiana but got the popular vote of white folk. If Trump dominates the new cycle long enough with this shit it keeps the democrats from pitching their mirage for the future and they will lose. 

I’m sure trumps on record saying a whole lot of things. Some lies. Some perhaps not. I cannot say for certain if that particular alleged disavowing of Duke was sincere because he without question blatantly and unabashedly lies about fucking anything. A lot of the time. And Specifically, I’m not even talking about the proud boys group. You can have people of all whatever’s in any number of groups. Just like you can be a black Clayton bigsby.  I am referring to the Charlottesville incident where there were fine people on both sides. Gtfoutta here and stfu forever if that doesn’t mean exactly what it sounds like. 
 

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, NightmareOnElmStreet said:

I’m sure trumps on record saying a whole lot of things. Some lies. Some perhaps not. I cannot say for certain if that particular alleged disavowing of Duke was sincere because he without question blatantly and unabashedly lies about fucking anything. A lot of the time. And Specifically, I’m not even talking about the proud boys group. You can have people of all whatever’s in any number of groups. Just like you can be a black Clayton bigsby.  I am referring to the Charlottesville incident where there were fine people on both sides. Gtfoutta here and stfu forever if that doesn’t mean exactly what it sounds like. 
 

 

 

 

 

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I generally dont look to politicians to be barometers of society's level of goodwill like so many dim people these days, and I assume theyre going to justify their means to get and keep power. There is a market for power, and being a racist doesnt get you power and i dont think Trump is a racist but he stands up to the people who are trying to dictate what the talking points are going to be, that is why he resonates with people imo not because everybody is racist but because theyre sick of the power structure. I believe the Charlottesville comment is slightly out of context, imo he is talking about how things have fractured along tribal lines and there are definitely people that wanna live harmoniously on both sides of the ideological divide that are caught in the fracas that is now. 

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1 hour ago, Dark_Knight said:

 

I feel like if they didn’t stand by (see what I did there?) the assumption that they are a white supremacist organization, they would openly denounce the suggestion that they were rather than create t shirts and be empowered by it. 
 

As far as them being passive observers, I don’t believe that to be true either. I think we’ll see more or their actions in the coming months as well, now that they have motivation.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/09/30/proud-boy-arrested-on-six-felony-charges-in-portland/amp/
 

i found this article immediately when googling “proud boys”. I get that it’s the mainstream media in which I feel like most of us here want to avoid, but it does appear that they are involved in the action.

 

That being said, I think it’s important for Biden to denounce antifa if he wants to use this as an argument. 
 

I get antifa started as an “idea” but it has now become a movement for leftist anarchy. I don’t think they have productive intentions so they need to be acknowledged in the same light.

 

Political polarization is bonkers

So for fun and to further our exploration of this topic, lets take a brief look at how core information / media outlets on the internet are covering these two concepts (Antifa / Proud Boys). And again, I don't support either group. This is simply us exploring a topic and me attempting to look past the surface as to what is driving what we're seeing... The beginnings of an attempt to look at the framework and engineering with less emphasis on the details of the facade that covers that framework. From this exploration, we can made a jusgment call as to whether we're seeing bias, which in turn can be interpreted as what might be shaping opinions, especially when this is likely the basis for all the conversation on social that has largely replaced any widespread attempts at applying reason, logic or the sort of healthy skepticism that leads individuals to challenge narratives and seek truth.

 

Wikipedia's result when you search "Proud Boys"... Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys

 

screenshot-en-wikipedia-org-wiki-Proud_Boys-1601572316022.gif

Wikipedia's result when you search "Antifa"... Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa

 

screenshot-en-wikipedia-org-wiki-Antifa-1601572347783.gif

 

Now we don't have to take this very significant difference at face value. A reasonable argument for why searching "Antifa" takes you to an index instead of a page is that there is more history and therefore more usage / context. But from this index, we have 13 options that describe the organization. The only one that seems to apply to the subject here is possibly the last option, "Rose City Antifa". I've never really seen it designated as such in the mainstream media, which begs its own question, but lets have a look at the entry... Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa

 

screenshot-en-wikipedia-org-wiki-Rose_City_Antifa-1601573049864.gif

 

Now, putting a little more effort into it, I was able to come across what appears to be an official Wikipedia entry for the "Antifa" as it relates to the discussion. Curious why it wouldn't be a primary link on the index when searching this subject from within the USA, but I won't speculate. On first glance, it appears to be pretty thorough, judging its length. We all know that the basic summary is the entry block of text, so to not extend my little dissertation to a true wall of text, we'll simply focus on that and you guys can continue our research and see if you can gather more insight into what motives might exist behind these entries.

 

screenshot-en-wikipedia-org-wiki-Antifa_-United_States-1601574207196.gif

 

Pretty interesting to see how both organizations are described.

 

Opening line for the Proud Boys entry: "The Proud Boys is a far-right[1][2][3][4] and neo-fascist[5][6][7][8] male-only[9][10] organization that promotes and engages in political violence.".

 

Opening line for the Antifa entry: "Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈæntiˌfɑː/)[1] is an anti-fascist action and left-wing political movement in the United States[2][3][4][5] comprising an array of autonomous[6][7] groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of both nonviolent and violent direct action rather than through policy reform."

 

Now attempting to truly set any bias aside, do these descriptions match up with what we've been seeing so far? Even accounting for heavy bias in coverage and opinion, has anyone seen less than a dozen individual instances of violence from protests that clearly show mobs dressed in black and carrying shields and waving flags bearing the Antifa logo? Can anybody dig up even a single similar video of mob violence on behalf of the Proud Boys, let alone many?

 

Did you happen to notice that the Proud Boys entry also includes related entries at the bottom of the page for "White Nationalism"? There is a brief mention in the opening block about it "Officially rejecting white supremacy", but it is interesting to analyze the description of them and that other than that single sentence, the entire description is that they're white supremacists with really only the single takeaway that they are indeed a racist organization bent on violence, rooted in neo-fascist ideology. Would indeed seem an odd pairing when we can see so many of the members of Proud Boys are clearly not even white. Also interesting is even after digging around, I can't find a website for them or even any kind of official account for them. Curious how the entries author was able to so clearly define them as having a "neo-fascist" ideology or that women aren't allowed to be members when again, we can identify females mixed into the crowd shots that show their groups. Obviously that isn't irrefutable evidence, but with no official website or account pages I'd be curious to know how thy were able to so clearly define these very significant characteristics, especially at a time when most of these fringe groups / movements - from Antifa to BLM to Proud Boys - seem to not be centrally controlled or posses an obvious command and control structure. Also interesting to me Is that besides being described as racists when there's clearly minorities in their makeup, not having women members when you can see women in their mob, or being fascist when I'm not seeing much evidence of them bullying people to accept any sort of ideology at all, that there isn't much of the same rush to categorize Antifa or BLM as violent or extremists or fascist when we can see videos that could serve as a strong argument for it (even if its the exception and not the rule for those organizations).

 

In fact, I've heard this fact exactly used to explain away some of the bad behaviors of both Antifa and BLM... A few bad apples that don't represent the organization /  movement and that the protests are mostly peaceful.

 

Again, not trying to encourage any sort of support or hostility towards either group here. Only attempting to analyze how they're being positioned by authoritative information sources and media. So for those all important "undecided" we spoke of early on in this discussion, what do you think the take away is if your basing opinion on the official narrative?

 

Continuing on...

 

Google search for "Proud Boys"... Link: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&ei=gA12X67ROtHL-gST1JuADg&q=proud+boys&oq=proud+boys

 

Versus Google search for "Antifa"... Link: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=aw12X-H1LMbH-gSElL2ADg&q=antifa

 

screenshot-www-google-com-search-1601573878784.gif

 

screenshot-www-google-com-search-1601573850973.gif

 

Even discounting the actual result contents, does anybody find it unusual that the Proud Boys, an organization that according to Wikipedia was founded in 2016, but only has really been a conversation for a couple weeks now has 515,000,000 results versus "Antifa", an organization with roots going back to pre WW2, but with a history in the USA that certainly far predates 2016 and a large focus of the cultural conversation and news for many months, it would seem counter intuitive to see 2139.13% more entries for Proud Boys versus Antifa. Lets search for BLM, despite it being a tougher comparison since its a 3 letter acronym that until recently was understood to be the federal Bureau of Land Management... Link: https://www.google.com/search?q=blm

 

screenshot-www-google-com-search-1601577254695.gif

 

Again, pretty fascinating result... 116,000 total results for a movement that has dominated media and social attention for at least the last half year and arguably for the last couple years. An organization and movement that has been embraced by corporate America, professional sports and probably center stage since since just after Trump was elected. Do you find it unusual that collectively, Antifa and BLM as topics represent is just over 25% (26.99%) of the results as Proud Boys?

 

Anyhow, I feel the need to again reiterate that I'm not advocating for Proud Boys. I know very little about them. Likewise, I'm not denouncing Antifa or BLM here either. I'm merely attempting to bring attention to what I believe to be a very obvious bias, that in turn, I would speculate is fanning the flames of violence and division. What I've posted here is not the smoking gun, end all - be all irrefutable evidence of this, but merely a first stab and looking past the surface to try and understand the mechanisms behind what we're seeing. Naturally this leads to the next question after the "what", which is "who" and "why". If you guys are at all interested we can keep exploring and discussing and start to speculate on obvious questions such as how can one benefit from the dynamic we're witnessing and who sits in a position to be able to benefit from it when its executed successfully as we're seeing?

 

If nothing else, I sincerely hope I've at least planed a seed in the minds of those that took the time to read this whole thing. Something that will flourish into a healthy skepticism of the world around you, which in turn will compel you to dig beneath the surface and only use the stupid memes everyone embraces as fact as a starting point to dig into the truth behind the who, what and why so you can begin really understand the world around you.

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3 minutes ago, misteraven said:

I stand corrected. I spent an hour trying to find an official website with no luck. Good catch.

 

*Edit: link doesnt seem to work.

Not my screenshot. Grabbed it from https://thedonald.win It’s where the guys from r/thedonald went after the reddit ban.

 

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/6/29/21304947/reddit-ban-subreddits-the-donald-chapo-trap-house-new-content-policy-rules

 

Maybe the PBs took down their site, no idea 

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59 minutes ago, Kults said:

pretty odd look for a ‘white supremacist’

 

 

 

 

D0AAEA55-869F-44BB-8841-410B6ED06B26.jpeg

Intersting. I did a reverse image search to verify the validity of that and dude indeed has a black wide and a couple kids with her. While digging around I stumbled on a ton of hate, including these below. Its really pretty crazy to see the confirmation bias truly blind people. Rather than start to question the narrative that he's racist because he's a high profile "Proud Boy" member, they instead come up with the idea that he's a racist with a secret love of black women. In fact, how ironic is the tweet? A black dude that is using a slur to describe the black women here because there's no other possibility except that the white guy is a racist. Pretty unreal...

 

 

https://mtonews.com/racist-proud-boy-john-kinsman-arrested-has-black-wife

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I’ve read about them at multiple rallies with traditionalist worker party members, patriot front members, and a few other neo Nazi organizations. Seems like having a few token black and Hispanic guys is a cover up for what the real agenda is. 
 

Or they’re just wannabe Tyler durden cosplay fags. 
 

Don’t think these dudes are innocent by any means. And they are getting recognized bc they have a founder who’s pretty good at getting recognition and knows a thing or two about diverting attention to operate.

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Antifa/Proud boys (and anyone else who acts out political violence) is retarded. I'm neither left, or right leaning, and def not even a smidge minarchist. So when two of my enemies are fighting one another, I let them. I do consider favoring one, or speculate which enemy views me more favorably because I know my enemies very well. Aside from each other, the freedom I enjoy has always been a the 2nd biggest threat to either one, and fulfilling their vision. Let them fight.

 

This is why I don't vote. Seems like the only useful method for effecting political change is buying politicians, not voting for them. If either candidate promised to lower gov spending, stop going after non-criminal undocumented immigrants, end the drug war, or anything else I worth giving a fuck about I'd register to vote but we all know that shit isn't happening with either bullshit, anti freedom candidate.

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7 hours ago, ndv said:

This just in, hot off the press!

20201002_000839.jpg

Choose your next adventure:

 

1) Biden was exposed at the debate. Biden dies.

2) Both Trump and Biden die.

3) Trump recovers from a mild case and uses it to win the election.

Edited by 6Pennies
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