Should "the rich" pay "more taxes"?

[abrasivesaint]

2 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

Teaching everyone to practice abstinence would serve this country a LOT better than not.  People that are loose with their inhibitions are a big part of the reason that we have so many people with their hands out asking other people to pay for them in life.  I'm not paying for your inability to control the fact that you follow wherever your dick leads you.

The states that lean towards religious driven “practice abstinence” instead of proper sex ed are the states with the highest teen pregnancy rates, according to the CDC. 
 

The rates are CDC info, the rest is me speaking. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by abrasivesaint

[abrasivesaint]

1 hour ago, Dirty_habiT said:

Dude, I grew up poor af in the ghetto of San Antonio as a minority being a white kid.  Explain to me how I rose to the upper tax brackets without going to college?  Again, am I somehow gifted in some way that others are not?  Did I do some amazing thing that other people cannot do?

 

I'll help answer that for you.  The answer is no.  No I didn't.  I realized that I didn't want my life to suck and I did what was necessary to make it that way.  My parents never gave me handouts.  They didn't pay my car insurance.  I never had expensive clothes or multiple pairs of new shoes..... but now I do.  Because I earned for myself.

 

Are you trying to get me to believe that I'm somehow unique in this regard and that NOBODY else is capable of doing the same things I did?  Really all it was is ambition.  I also looked at what occupations made the most money and pursued what I was already good at and it worked out great.  Nobody except you makes your life suck unless you refuse to take responsibility for yourself.  If you want to sit around on your fat ass and blame everyone else for your problems then I guess I agree, your life does suck.  And I don't mean "you" in particular, I mean anyone that does that feeling sorry for themselves crap with their hand out asking others to pay for their shortcomings.

 

You could be using your time right now improving your life instead of trying to prove a point to me.  You can't use that same statement on me because I've already done and continue to do what is necessary to maintain an upward trajectory in life.

 

I've poured concrete for a living before.  I used to be a cook at KFC.  If I can become successful from being in those places, ANYONE can.... unless you don't want to apply yourself.  But don't expect someone like me to feel sorry for you at all.  I won't.

 

Btw this isn't a "DHABZ kicks ass" post and you suck/drool.... it's more about me being "just a guy" that did what was necessary to rise above the rest.  Doing so always comes with some haters.... so dislike me for who I am and what I believe if that's what stains your shorts but it won't serve you or anyone else that behaves like that towards others well.

Ok, heres the flip side to that. A woman i know grew up the minority as a white girl in a section of a city made famous by a little group called NWA. Nothing was handed to her either. She was abused in every literal sense of the word. She pulled herself out of there. Beat a highly addictive drug habit. Went to college for healthcare and acquired the debt that came with it. Found herself a man, had children, and all the American Dream that came with that. Well one of those children has some learning disabilities, another has a dormant terminal disease. She willingly went further into debt trying to make their lives better educationally and medically. 2 things other societies have proven can improve quality of life through social programs. 
 

Well it turns out that marriage didn't work out, and that husband also has the dormant terminal disease, except his is no longer latent and he is estimated to be dead within the next year or two. This debt, (bettering the lives of her children,) became so crippling that she eventually had to leave her children in the care of her younger sister, bail on her job she went to school for, and seek travel work in my field getting paid far more than she would at an in house position. She was away from her children for 2 years working off the majority of that debt. She is a pull yourself up by the boot straps type with an incredibly hard work ethic. She even voted for Trump, (and now regrets it, ha.)  She is currently back with her children, but back in low income housing in the hood because it’s what she can afford, still with some debt, but it’s far more manageable. 
 

Should this woman have to struggle for the foreseeable future due to her circumstances? Is there absolutely nothing that we can do as a society to cut someone like this a break on their debts? She did everything right, and still is failing. 
 

Now, for the sake of the conversation, i’ll speak on this.. I put my money where my mouth is. With plenty of protest and refusal from her, there were times i aided her financially. Car tire popped and she couldn’t pay for it, i covered the replacement. She wasn’t eating because she didnt have the money, i helped with food. Her car got towed due to some weird law about not backing into a parking space, i paid to have it freed from the tow yard, and so on.. I acquired a little bit of credit debt myself as a result, but nothing i couldn’t pay off tomorrow if i truly wanted to, and i did so willingly. The money i spent i can make back in a month or two with ease. 
 

Some could see this as the acts of a fool, i see it as putting my money where my mouth was and helping someone in need when i was in a position to do so with ease.
 

If i can do it, money spent talking political shit in Bloomberg campaign ads certainly could of. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by abrasivesaint

[Dirty_habiT]

16 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

1. Went to college for healthcare and acquired the debt that came with it. Found herself a man, had children,......
 

2. Well it turns out that marriage didn't work out.

 

3. Should this woman have to struggle for the foreseeable future due to her circumstances? Is there absolutely nothing that we can do as a society to cut someone like this a break on their debts? She did everything right, and still is failing. 
 

4. Some could see this as the acts of a fool, i see it as putting my money where my mouth was and helping someone in need when i was in a position to do so with ease.

Good on you man.  I mean that with all of my heart too.  I believe you should help people as much as you can bare to do it.  I'll address a couple of points I numbered above.

 

1.  This seems like a mistake.... and let me explain.... because it seems to be the "trap" that "most people" fall into.  They get into more "personal" debt when they're still in monetary debt.  They now have to juggle monetary debt, raising kids, being a good partner, AND going to work and being a good worker all at the same time.  This is a huge burden on any person.  What I mean by this is, she had likely massive amounts of school debt.... but NOBODY goes to school for a high paying career without knowing that they'll be in massive debt coming out.  So, crying foul after the fact doesn't land well on my ears.  It was a choice that was made and again "this is the life you chose."  I'm not saying that to shit on what someone did, I've just been very wary of making similar decisions.  For instance, my order of operations in my mind currently is, get out of ALL debt.  Buy land.  Get married.  Have children.  By the time the have children part comes along there will be 0 money problems and if there are money problems then that means that I cannot afford to have children.... and I won't make the choice to do so.  This is also what makes most of my friends and elders that have kids say that "if you wait until the time is right you'll never do it."  I'm fine with the time never coming if that's what my life leads to, but I can tell you that supporting children properly is my highest priority in life and if I cannot achieve that properly then I will choose not to.  That's just the way I look at having kids.... and it's definitely not knocking anyone else that has done anything differently.... it's just the way I choose to go down the path of my life.

 

2.  Cannot say I'm too surprised by that.  I don't have to know the reason why, but I can say that statistically money problems lead to breaks in marriages quite often.  I can imagine that the expense of medical care for children combined with mortgage, car payment, school debt, new shoes, new cell phone, etc etc while working 12h shifts at a hospital is absolutely brutal.  Some would say that's biting off more than you can chew, and yes it's ambitious.... but it takes incredible strength and an incredible partner to achieve victory doing that.  I'd say her partner didn't seem "incredible"..... and "incredible" can mean many things here.  It can mean sticking with someone through hard times no matter what..... it can mean making a massive pay check..... it can mean having a family that is willing to help do anything for that person.... etc.  Just to name a few.

 

3.  Absolutely not.  Not struggling in this regard means being in a low income tax bracket (so you don't have to give as much of your money away to the govt).  I don't think cutting breaks on debts is a good thing for anyone.  Most debts can be refinanced to be at lower or no percent interest rates, which is what I'd pursue in that situation if it were me.  There is a lesson to be learned here and that's that you never buy anything on credit that you don't have cash in your pocket to pay for immediately.  Yes, this goes for school debt.  The schools have been fucking people out of huge amounts of money for a very long time now.  That's a whole other subject I could beat to death but won't here because it's not the right place for it.  What we're "doing as a society" to help this person and people like them is providing the infrastructure that will allow them to succeed through perseverance and hard work.  I'd say the low income and sick children struggle could be a very enriching experience and would provide most people with a whole lot of experience in life that would make them appreciate every little thing they are blessed with that much more.

 

4.  I don't think you're a fool for helping this person at all if they're a friend.  As long as you're not trying to white knight her life for her and you're genuinely trying to just help someone you care about helping.  I don't think you're being a white knight here, I think you're doing the right thing for someone you care about.  I hope things improve for them and in time they will if they "do the right thing".  I don't mean that as in there's some certain choice you have to make or they have to make, I mean that if you do good things then you will be rewarded.  The world won't explain itself to you, and I'm sorry for being philosophical about it, but that's what I believe..... and no it's not the same thing as some hippy karma.

 

I never went to college because I wasn't 100% sure what I wanted to do in life and I wasn't ok with going into debt for something I was unsure of.  Well as time would go on, I'd eventually not go to college at all.  I toy with the idea now but just to go learn welding or something at the local community college.... or maybe take a continuing education class in computer science or something.... but i'm definitely not interested in doing the whole indoctrinated into the school debt dance that a lot of people have done.

[abrasivesaint]

23 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

1.  This seems like a mistake.... and let me explain.... because it seems to be the "trap" that "most people" fall into.  They get into more "personal" debt when they're still in monetary debt.  They now have to juggle monetary debt, raising kids, being a good partner, AND going to work and being a good worker all at the same time.  This is a huge burden on any person.  What I mean by this is, she had likely massive amounts of school debt.... but NOBODY goes to school for a high paying career without knowing that they'll be in massive debt coming out.  So, crying foul after the fact doesn't land well on my ears.  It was a choice that was made and again "this is the life you chose." 
 

But this is part of the American Dream we are indoctrinated with as children. Going back to school when your older and established is not as easy as it is for a young person to continue their education before they take on the responsibilities of the real world. 

 

23 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

 

3.  Absolutely not.  Not struggling in this regard means being in a low income tax bracket (so you don't have to give as much of your money away to the govt).  I don't think cutting breaks on debts is a good thing for anyone.  Most debts can be refinanced to be at lower or no percent interest rates, which is what I'd pursue in that situation if it were me.

As far as i am aware student loans cannot be refinanced nor can bankruptcy help you. 

 

23 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

There is a lesson to be learned here and that's that you never buy anything on credit that you don't have cash in your pocket to pay for immediately.  Yes, this goes for school debt.  The schools have been fucking people out of huge amounts of money for a very long time now.  That's a whole other subject I could beat to death but won't here because it's not the right place for it. 
 

So you expect everyone to have the means to pay cash upfront for their house, their car, their student load debt.. most people would have nothing, and no education.
 

Without education you cant get a lot of jobs out there. There are numerous jobs in the medical field alone that you need a bachelors for. A bachelors in what you might ask? Doesnt matter. Bachelors in jerking off mountain goats, but you have a bachelors and therefor meet requirements to land the job you have no knowledge of yet that person with 10 years experience and no bachelors gets denied the position and the department you are now in charge of is run into the ground and you go back to jerking off mountain goats while the life of that experienced work suffers the consequences of systematic nonsense. 

 

23 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

 

What we're "doing as a society" to help this person and people like them is providing the infrastructure that will allow them to succeed through perseverance and hard work.  I'd say the low income and sick children struggle could be a very enriching experience and would provide most people with a whole lot of experience in life that would make them appreciate every little thing they are blessed with that much more.

Could be* is the key words here. It can also be incredibly draining, taxing, and crippling. Regardless of your hard work because the cards just never seem to land in your favor.. life isn’t fair. I get that. But theres people that can potentially level the playing fields for many, and chose not to. They’re not a part of the supposed team this country is supposed to be. At least not the team that i’m on. 

[Fist 666]

19 hours ago, misteraven said:

I should probably go back and read the entire ;last page rather than just skim the last two comments, but there's limits to collectivism and for a society to be free, it should be nearly entirely voluntary. Many that think like I do would argue it should be entirely voluntary as I'm sure @Mercerwill probably step in and talk about.

 

In my mind, its disingenuous to point to public works and infrastructure and use that as the basis for an argument on why all of us should be paying taxes. Reality is you can with little time or effort look up state and federal budget breakdown and see the fractions of a percent that actually go to fund that sort of thing. Likewise, even the ardent government supporter would have a pretty difficult time making an argument for how well managed, efficient or effective that vast majority of government operates. Reality is even intelligence and war can be fought more efficiently and effectively via the private sector and that's basically what government is best at. But going back to specific mentions in your statement, "National defense, police, ports, roads, hospitals, education, water/sewer" a good many of these are actually privatized. Ports are privately owned and managed. Only government involvement is accountability and oversight because they're considered National Security concerns. Roads should truly be managed at the local level and anything that extends beyond should be a tool road with all funds accounted for and unavailable for anything beyond the immediate improvement / extension / maintenance of that road with full transparency and audit. Hospitals are largely private and a much broader discussion, but even as such, anyone that think the government has done a good job stepping in and all but taking over our medical system is either crazy, on drugs or thoroughly lying to themselves - current events not withstanding. I'd even argue that policing and the majority of National defense can easily be privatized and fact is that a good deal of it already is as well. Once again we can point to prior threads and talk about the shit show that industry is, whether its quota based hiring, corruption or whatever else. Willing to bet that if we didn't leave people so fuckin stupid, distracted and dependent through the public education system, poorer areas might catch on to what the rich, rural and *mostly* ethnic areas do and take security / policing into their own hands.

 

 

 

 

I'm not arguing against other systems or defending the inefficiencies of the status quo. I am saying--we exist and succeed because of a collectivist approach. The success we have all individually had has taken place within a system of collectivism, NOBODY has made it one their own with out this baseline system in place because it is wholly ubiquitous, you can't escape its details. 

 

Now that the thread is about rich-paying-taxes, my initial point seems misdirected. I'm well aware of what is public and private, what is paid with taxes and which only has gov oversight. It is still collectivism at work. Do our tax dollars not support  ports, hospitals, farmers, etc? GOV oversight helps ensure that our corona quarantine hospitals won't collapse... There isn't a truly free-market at play, subsidies have kept our infrastructure going.

 

 

My point that most details of your daily life are the result of successful collectivism (inefficient as fuck for sure, but still successful). Are there better systems, yes of course.

 

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Sure we can certainly assess the reality of what it would be require to be the *lone wolf* survivalist, which is unlikely and unrealistic for just about the entire population. But if we're going to use that extreme to define one end of the spectrum and socialism to help define the other, I think we'd all be far better off with the pendulum largely hovering at the survivalist end of things.

My point is only that nobody is self sufficient to a degree that they can deny positive benefits from the collectivist system we live in.

 

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Doesn't matter if you're in teh camp that hates Trump or in the camp that hated Obama.

Can't one be in both camps?

 

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End of the day, you're trusting a complete stranger with more strings attached than you can even begin to imagine, to step into your life and govern you and the world around you and assume they have your best interest at heart. Just the fact that an individual would be compelled to step in and think they know whats best for you and that they will change the world around you to suit a vision they have should immediately tell you a lot about that individual, as well as scare the shit out of you. 

Agreed, mostly.

I think that is a bigger conversation about how a representative democracy is failing at scale, why money in politics is destructive, and how we as a nation have decided civic duty is only necessary in four year increments with less than 60% participation (and then it is relegated to a forced dichotomy party-line vote) .

 

The only real disagreement I have is that we should be suspicious or scared of anyone who wants to be a political leader. 

 

I still believe that selecting the best among us, the experts in their fields, to represent us will result in the most satisfactory state for the greatest amount of people. 

[Fist 666]

19 hours ago, Dirty_habiT said:

 

 

@Fist 666- none of those people "helped" me do anything anymore than they helped you or anyone else.  Those are services paid for by taxes.  Given what I've heard you say in the past I would not be surprised to hear you say the police should get less money from our taxes.  You also seem to be misunderstanding here.  Yes, I live in the same society everyone else does.... but I have utilized what is available to me to a degree that others have not.... MANY others.  Do not attempt to cheapen my accomplishments by saying that I didn't work harder than you or anyone else.  You have no idea how much I've worked or about the choices I've made that had NOTHING to do with anyone else's influence or decision.  You make decisions everyday that nobody else is a part of and so does everyone else.  I think it's incredibly naive and dissonant to attribute one's success to those around them when those around them have all acted selfishly (the way you should) to worry about themselves.

 

I am not attempting to downplay your hard work, drive, or whatever adversities you have overcome. I don't question that at all. I applaud what you've done for yourself.

 

I do have a problem with the fact that seemingly the only metric for success you use is dollars and that the only way to measure hard work is the dollar stack at the end of the day, but we have different values, and that's okay.

 

Stay on point--we aren't talking about misappropriated police funds or how inefficient our system is.

 

My point remains: the baseline system that you exist in dominates your life. You reaped benefits from it. You (like everyone else) are not wholly self-made. 

 

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I think it's incredibly naive and dissonant to attribute one's success to those around them when those around them have all acted selfishly (the way you should) to worry about themselves.

Lol at using my words. 

 

I'm confused by the statement--are you saying we should all act as selfish individuals without regard for our community? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand your point.

 

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Don't ever forget, I'm number 1.  Not you, not anyone else.  Me.  I make decisions for me and I use the tools available to me that I've paid for with my taxes.  The tools available with the "low taxes" that have been paid (according to you) were enough combined with my choices to get me where I am..... so what is the logical reasoning for needing more money?  Are people not capable?  Do I have some special gift that allows me to extract more from "society" than you or anyone else?

Again, I applaud you on your drive. I value other things like empathy, community, environment, etc more than I value a bigger bank account. We have different value sets but exist in the same system. Yes, most people who truly want financial success ought to be able to find a way to it. But there is NO system where everyone is "rich"--there has to be KFC cooks and concrete workers and roofers and garbage men. You seem to be judging those content with less and lumping all of them into a "lazy trashbin" since they either aren't making as much as you or aren't working to make as much as you.

 

I agree with you, if someone complains about their status in life but does nothing to improve it, then they are fools.

 

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Yes, and they pay higher taxes than you do for that privilege.  

Are you saying they shouldn't be? You justified tax loopholes and tax laws elsewhere, so this is tax law--should they not pay more for that privilege? Are you arguing for a flat tax or a different system?

 

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Have you checked out tax brackets lately and seen what percentage of income people are paying in the upper brackets?  Only greed would drive someone to think they should pay more money into "the system".  

I have, wife and I bumped up into the 24% bracket last year and if the 10 year plan works out we will jump to the 32% bracket. 

It isn't greed, it's a sense of community. If I take more resources from the system that we live in than other individuals for me to be successful, then I ought to pay more into the system. I'm also okay saying that if I'm more able to pay more, then I will. 

 

A mild tangent: I've had a vasectomy and have zero intent of ever reproducing, but I am thrilled to pay any tax that helps improve public education. All ships rise and sink with the tide.

 

 

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This is the SAME system that is available to you, that you're not using to that level.... and it's ONLY your fault so stop trying to blame others and get them to pick up the slack for you.  I can't stand working with coworkers that think like that ("tax the rich"), and for the most part I haven't had to for a very long time because all the people in my group have a similar mindset ("reduce our taxes in any way possible because they're 'high'").  You're choice, sit around and complain, or go make more money.  No sweat off my gooch either way breh.... you just aren't going to get a pass from me trying to take more of my money through higher taxes, period the end.

Lol.

It's paragraphs like this that make me ignore your posts and avoid any conversation directly with you. It's mostly a nonsense rant stating "fuck you, I've earned every cent I have and you're lazy if you don't have as much as me and you're greedy if you think graduated tax brackets make sense." Money isn't the only metric to measure happiness or success, apparently its the only thing that matters to you--cool. You do you, but our society would not last long at all if that was our communal core value.

[Fist 666]

20 hours ago, ndv said:

This whole idea of the rich make more, they should pay more is complete crap.

 

They already do!    

 

 

Right. I think the crux of this conversation is perhaps something that ought to be stated. I am 100% in support of graduated tax brackets. I'm not arguing that those brackets need adjustment (I think they do, but I'm not going to put the energy into researching the nuanced details), I'm only arguing that they should remain in place. 

 

I'm open to flat taxes, I've read some, but I haven't done enough research say I understand what their impact would be.

 

 

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@Fist 666 -  I do agree with you to an extent.  Yes, @Dirty_habiT, you, myself, and everyone one else is a product of the last gen that built the resources we all equally use today.   But it shouldn't be a financial punishment if someone decides to use the resources in a different manner by paying higher taxes if it works out because they want to better themselves.

Let's go Spiderman with this one. "With great power comes great responsibility." I think if anyone wants wealth and success then they ought to be aware that there are costs to financial success. It isn't punishment.

 

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Being self employed rather it's a one man band operation or you have 20,000 employees.  We all have to pay payroll taxes not to mention the federal taxes.  

 

Payroll taxes are bunch of crap.  It's basically being taxed twice.  You pay your taxes that you see deducted on your paycheck.  And I pay taxes on what i just payed you, that you do not see on your paycheck.  Then I have my business taxes, mud tax, school tax, just to name a few.

 

Then when all of that is said and paid for I get to pay myself.  And I get taxed on that too.

I know fuck-all about this, but I don't doubt that the system is overly complicated and far from efficient or balanced. I will never defend the status quo as perfect.

[Dirty_habiT]

On 3/7/2020 at 5:26 PM, abrasivesaint said:

But this is part of the American Dream we are indoctrinated with as children. Going back to school when your older and established is not as easy as it is for a young person to continue their education before they take on the responsibilities of the real world. 

It's not hard for an adult to go back to school unless they've filled their life up with things that they're permanently attached to taking care of.  Like..... if you have a house full of illegitimate children, probably hard to go back to school as an adult and in that scenario it'd be best to go immediately after school (provided a person that makes these kinds of choices was even going to standard public school in the capacity that someone that would eventually go to college would).

 

Taking on the responsibilities of the world begins WAY before you are legally an adult.  Maybe that is the problem with many people, they've been mentally coddled up until they're 18 and beyond if they've gone to college..... and then they get out into that "difficult real world" and it's shocking to them.  They don't know how to navigate being an adult because school doesn't teach you that ...... at all.

 

On 3/7/2020 at 5:26 PM, abrasivesaint said:

As far as i am aware student loans cannot be refinanced nor can bankruptcy help you. 

 

So you expect everyone to have the means to pay cash upfront for their house, their car, their student load debt.. most people would have nothing, and no education.

There's nothing wrong with planning ahead and paying for college.  Many parents put money away for their kids to go to college.  18 years is plenty of time to save for this unless you suck with money.  Kids that are ambitious can save for college too.  I'm sure that's not common but plenty of parents save cash to pay for college for their kids.  I'd say that's part of your responsibility as a parent that doesn't want to raise kids that will turn into adult bums on society with their hand out to the hard working people and the government to "do things" for them and "provide services through taxation".

 

On 3/7/2020 at 5:26 PM, abrasivesaint said:

Without education you cant get a lot of jobs out there. There are numerous jobs in the medical field alone that you need a bachelors for. A bachelors in what you might ask? Doesnt matter. Bachelors in jerking off mountain goats, but you have a bachelors and therefor meet requirements to land the job you have no knowledge of yet that person with 10 years experience and no bachelors gets denied the position and the department you are now in charge of is run into the ground and you go back to jerking off mountain goats while the life of that experienced work suffers the consequences of systematic nonsense. 

Almost every job I've ever had "required" a degree.  I don't have one.  The requirement for a degree is just a roadblock/shit test to keep the easily defeated and less ambitious out.  Sure, we can bring up the medical field where nobody should be if they don't have formal education on the subject.  I agree a degree is required there.... but that's an exception, not the rule.

 

On 3/7/2020 at 5:26 PM, abrasivesaint said:

Could be* is the key words here. It can also be incredibly draining, taxing, and crippling. Regardless of your hard work because the cards just never seem to land in your favor.. life isn’t fair. I get that. But theres people that can potentially level the playing fields for many, and chose not to. They’re not a part of the supposed team this country is supposed to be. At least not the team that i’m on. 

Life isn't "more fair" for anyone else than it is for you or me.  Life isn't fair equally for everyone.  What you think is fair is not fair for someone else and it's up to perception.  So what you cannot do is press your perception upon others.  The kid with a silver spoon in his mouth might have battled leukemia at a young age.... how "fair" is that.... is he also a shit head for being "rich".... because his parents have money?

 

You hit the nail on the head when you said they could level the playing field and they choose not to.  It's a choice.  It's not a law.... it's not the rules.  You don't get to decide for anyone else that they have to give their money up to the government.  If you want the government to have more money so bad, then go earn more money, give more money to them and encourage your friends to do the same..... but trying to force others that don't make and don't like making the same choices as you is definitely not ethical.  They don't owe anything to anyone.

 

This country isn't a team or we'd have no bipartisanship.  We're just a group of people bound by government rules, which we'd like to keep at a minimum if possible.  We don't want bigger government, more taxes, and less freedom.  That's what one side of the fence is nearly always battling for.  There is no "moderate liberalism" like the way it used to exist anymore.  The team I'm on is Team DHABZ.... sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, I am not going to rely on a bunch of slouches to help me win.... and most of the people "on the team" (as you put it) are not people I want to be carrying because they're not good enough to compete well.

[Dirty_habiT]

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

I do have a problem with the fact that seemingly the only metric for success you use is dollars and that the only way to measure hard work is the dollar stack at the end of the day, but we have different values, and that's okay.

Professional success is definitely measured in dollars.  That's what taxes are paid with.... dollars, not anything else.  I stand by my measure of success.  This isn't about being a "successful father" or being "successful at coaching a volleyball team".  Sure that's success, but it's not taxed by the federal government.

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

My point remains: the baseline system that you exist in dominates your life. You reaped benefits from it. You (like everyone else) are not wholly self-made. 

Yes, I could not have done the same thing in Cambodia.  I was blessed to be born in America.  I have the same amenities available to me as any other true USA citizen does.  In fact I've used VERY few of the "services" offered by our government in comparison to others.  This is part of me "not having my hand out".  I do for myself and I like other people that do for themselves in general more so than people with their hands out permanently.

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

Lol at using my words. 

That was by design :).

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

I'm confused by the statement--are you saying we should all act as selfish individuals without regard for our community? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand your point.

What I was saying is that people should act selfishly most of the time.  It's a "favor" when you do not.  You don't owe anyone any favors.  It's nice to be nice, but it's not required, and worrying about yourself would both make many people more successful and less annoying at the same time.  Too much energy is spent worrying about what other people are doing and trying to control them when they don't want to do with what you agree should be done.

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

 

Again, I applaud you on your drive. I value other things like empathy, community, environment, etc more than I value a bigger bank account. We have different value sets but exist in the same system. Yes, most people who truly want financial success ought to be able to find a way to it. But there is NO system where everyone is "rich"--there has to be KFC cooks and concrete workers and roofers and garbage men. You seem to be judging those content with less and lumping all of them into a "lazy trashbin" since they either aren't making as much as you or aren't working to make as much as you.

The things you named are not the opposite of a big bank account.  In fact, if I hadn't had empathy I would have NEVER excelled and rose to the top levels of customer support departments within the businesses I worked for.  I love the environment so much that I want to buy land at some point in the near future so I can have my own slice of nature without having to look at some ugly mother fucker that's a "neighbor" everyday.  I wouldn't bank so hard on you and I having different value sets.  I think there's a ton more overlap than you're giving credit for.

 

You shouldn't be an "adult" kfc cook unless you're a felon or that is the limit of your mental capacity.  I have a hard time believing that is the limit of 90% of peoples' mental capacities.  It is, however, the limit of their ambition.  It's laziness.  Sloth.  There is an endless supply of entry level workers graduating highschool and in high school.  If you don't desire to become better at life then I guess twist chicken wings for 45 years until "retirement"..... if they offer a plan like that. 

 

Trash men are city workers and are actually taken care of very well.  There's nothing wrong with that job because it offers retirement and a future..... there may not be much promotion available, but I bet the director of the city's waste management department didn't just come into the job at that title.  There's such thing, and it's actually very common, for people to go from "janitor to CEO".... but not for those that don't put the effort and time in.

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

Are you saying they shouldn't be? You justified tax loopholes and tax laws elsewhere, so this is tax law--should they not pay more for that privilege? Are you arguing for a flat tax or a different system?

I'm saying we don't need the taxes raised higher.  We need more people contributing to the USA in a meaningful way.... by choice.  I billionaire A doesn't want to give up his scrooge gold, then fine.  Nobody should try to force them to do so.  When you pay 37% of your income yearly in taxes I think it's perfectly fine to figure out ways to avoid paying.  Taxes are robbery IMO.  When the money is used for things I don't get to decide on and you took it from me then I call that robbery.

 

A good example is, I pay tax for schools in this area.  I don't have any kids that use the schools.  When I have kids that go to school I will be more than happy to contribute to the school that is responsible for enriching my children's lives.

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

 

I have, wife and I bumped up into the 24% bracket last year and if the 10 year plan works out we will jump to the 32% bracket. 

It isn't greed, it's a sense of community. If I take more resources from the system that we live in than other individuals for me to be successful, then I ought to pay more into the system. I'm also okay saying that if I'm more able to pay more, then I will. 

But here's the thing.... you're not "taking more resources" if you're putting effort forth to "earn them".  It's not taking.  You don't owe anything to anyone if your hard work is what earned your way in life.  I am not arguing against being charitable or contributing to society.  I'm arguing against higher taxes only.

 

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

 

A mild tangent: I've had a vasectomy and have zero intent of ever reproducing, but I am thrilled to pay any tax that helps improve public education. All ships rise and sink with the tide.

You're nicer than i am about it for someone that has no children.  For me, I'm glad they're doing they're thing but I don't want to use my resources for that at this time.... especially not when I don't have any say so with the curriculum involved.  I sure as shit don't want to be paying for teachers to be telling my kids that they can be a boy or a girl if they just make the choice to be.  Fuck all of that.

 

13 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

It's paragraphs like this that make me ignore your posts and avoid any conversation directly with you. It's mostly a nonsense rant stating "fuck you, I've earned every cent I have and you're lazy if you don't have as much as me and you're greedy if you think graduated tax brackets make sense." Money isn't the only metric to measure happiness or success, apparently its the only thing that matters to you--cool. You do you, but our society would not last long at all if that was our communal core value.

I'm not happy despite the money I make.  Lots of people would say "i'd be happy if I made xyz amount of money".... but they're wrong.  You're wrong for thinking it's the only thing that matters to me.  It's just a means to an end.

[Dirty_habiT]

14 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

Right. I think the crux of this conversation is perhaps something that ought to be stated. I am 100% in support of graduated tax brackets. I'm not arguing that those brackets need adjustment (I think they do, but I'm not going to put the energy into researching the nuanced details), I'm only arguing that they should remain in place. 

 

I'm open to flat taxes, I've read some, but I haven't done enough research say I understand what their impact would be.

Flat tax would allow the "rich" to pay less money into the system.  Let's say this flat tax is "high" at 50% of all income.  This means that if you work for 30k/yr then you're really taking home 15k/yr.  That's just over $1000/mo or $500/biweekly.  That's not a lot of money to "play with".  By contrast, if you make $1M/yr.... then the 50% tax rate still affords you a lot of money to "play with".  "Poor people" suffer under this scenario.

 

Want to go the other way and make the flat tax "low" at 10%?  Ok.

 

30k/yr = 3k/yr in tax or .... you get to keep 27k/yr.  WOW you think.... I got to keep most of my money.  That's great for low income earners.  But the problem becomes when you have $1M/yr earners only paying 100k/yr into "the system"..... then "the system" can no longer afford to take care of it's citizens.  There simply isn't enough money to pay for these services for everyone anymore.  There aren't that many people in comparison to the total population paying in those high tax brackets now.

 

14 hours ago, Fist 666 said:

Let's go Spiderman with this one. "With great power comes great responsibility." I think if anyone wants wealth and success then they ought to be aware that there are costs to financial success. It isn't punishment.

The "cost" of financial success is being in that higher tax bracket that requires you give more of your income away to the government.  It's "already there".  We just don't want it to be more.

 

[Mercer]

On 3/6/2020 at 3:01 PM, KILZ FILLZ said:

Bon appetit 

 

edit: just so everyone is clear, I (Dirty_habiT) split this thread from the meme's thread where this image was originally posted.  It turned into a discussion and I saw fit to make it into it's own topic.  Kilz Fillz made a response below saying the same thing.... so don't attack him or hump his leg for this thread rubbing you the right or wrong way.

Right now, there's someone making far less than you, or me,  dreaming how much better their lives would be if they could somehow help themselves to most of what you've earned.

[KILZ FILLZ]

I’ve been on both sides now. Bet a lot of us have. 

[Dirty_habiT]

On 3/19/2020 at 9:54 PM, KILZ FILLZ said:

I’ve been on both sides now. Bet a lot of us have. 

**Maybe.  I feel like getting above average income level is not something that most people in any group will ever do.

[Mercer]

When you're young you make less, then as you advance in your career you make more (hopefully). Obviously not everyone makes it that much above minimum wage, or stays there for long.  I'm still one of those idealistic types that think everyone has some chance of making it with the right perspective, and effort.

[KILZ FILLZ]

On 3/21/2020 at 9:17 AM, Dirty_habiT said:

**Maybe.  I feel like getting above average income level is not something that most people in any group will ever do.

Yep that’s a harsh truth, the American dream is kind of a sham. *Most* people in *any* group are terribly mediocre and won’t amount to much in their 100 years they have on this rock. That’s totally fine though and there’s nothing wrong with it. 
 

the grass is always greener. The construction worker sees the guy in the air conditioned office working at a desk and daydreams how nice that must be. The guy in the office looks out the window and see the construction guy talking shop and having a relatively low stress job with visible landmarks of accomplishment at the end of each shift. The reality is the grass is brown everywhere you go. 
 

when I was still a teen someone I looked up to told me “humble beginnings, humble ends”. It’s one of those saying that can be molded into many many situations at many points in life and still stand. 
 

If you’ve been poor before you’re not really terrified about being poor again. 

[misteraven]

I don't see the American Dream as a sham, at least not in regards to the statement above.

 

You aren't guaranteed anything beyond what's been outlined in the Bill of Rights. Happiness is not guaranteed, no matter how simple or straightforward your interpretation is of it. What's guaranteed is the pursuit and to that we all have a better than fair chance when compared to most countries on Earth. Obviously its not perfect and we should indeed strive to improve the bias that does exist in some forms and in some places that goes to hold certain segments of the population back.

 

Whats sad is how we're teaching our children and the way in which we're molding them into the adults that will eventually take this over. A whole lot of the inequalities we see get their start and entrench at this stage of life. Every day there's less excuses for that thanks to technology and the data available on the web. In fact, its my hope that this COVID-19 shit puts the path towards revolutionizing teh school system in over drive. Look at the stats on how much goes into each seat for each child and ask yourself if the return on that investment is fair? We pay taxes so we indeed all have a say in that, whether you have a child in the system or not.

 

My thought is we can instead provide access to a quality networked computer or device to every child instead and put the millions and millions of dollars into a robust online learning system that is perhaps supplemented with in person study groups, testing centers and labs. I'd love to even see the lunch system dismantled and recreated as a holistic and sustainability based community agriculture and farm based system where a child is involved with growing the food that is made into their lunches. Honestly if we instead turned teachers into counselors and teaching assistants and focused energies into assembling the best online archive and educations system the world has ever seen, we can literally have classes and study groups led by the most brilliant minds in each field. We can then have regular home checkins as needed with the ability to earn or buy into more as needed, as well as regular study groups held at satellite learning systems that look more like libraries than schools, and supplemented with sports that better resemble commercial after school leagues and really set kids up for a life on independence, stability and success. Done right, I'd bet we see this start to even eclipse private schools, which sets the standard now.

 

Anyhow, looping back... We are individuals, not robots. We're born with differences in capacity, talent, ability and ambition. As a moral society, there is an inherent responsibility to help eliminate suffering, but this should not be enforced through the threat of violence. There is plenty of example of community taking care of each other voluntarily and I'd like to think we'd all be in agreement that government track record for efficiency and success in comparison to budget is nothing short of an unmitigated failure. Giving them more money, which largely get allocated to spending that has zero to do with quality of life, as well as the cost of the infrastructure itself, should make all of you guys seriously question the idea of taxes. But at the end of the day, people should be taxed evenly, if at all, with no penalty for success, as is seen in a progressive tax tax system. Taking the fruits of someones labor or success by force, to reallocate according the beliefs of a few is simply wrong. Further the belief that we actually have a truly representative government is a farce and those are the few individuals that have made a career out of spending your money.

 

If nothing else, this is a multifacted issue and a big bag of dicks that should burned to a crisp and stomped into dust and recreated to resemble the structure it was founded as. In any case, to think the clown in DC have your best interest in mind is you lying to yourself or at least not paying attention. To then trust that they will take your money and treat with the utmost care, consideration and respect is an even bigger farce. So how we going to sit around debating on whether you should be sending them even more of it? They'd done a piss poor job and if they were a company of contractor you know you'd have fired them ages ago.

 

 

[Mercer]

Nobody has a "right" to another person's labor.