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KILZ FILLZ

Should "the rich" pay "more taxes"?

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Bon appetit 

5E115A01-4B24-40E3-98C2-56905D4DC87F.jpeg

 

edit: just so everyone is clear, I (Dirty_habiT) split this thread from the meme's thread where this image was originally posted.  It turned into a discussion and I saw fit to make it into it's own topic.  Kilz Fillz made a response below saying the same thing.... so don't attack him or hump his leg for this thread rubbing you the right or wrong way.

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"can afford to pay" and "should pay" is the differentiation I'd like to make here.  Funny meme but fuck paying higher taxes for all this "free shit" that certain groups think they should have or deserve just for existing.  If they want to get things for existing, go exist in china and get fucked.  Just my two cents.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dirty_habiT said:

"can afford to pay" and "should pay" is the differentiation I'd like to make here.  Funny meme but fuck paying higher taxes for all this "free shit" that certain groups think they should have or deserve just for existing.  If they want to get things for existing, go exist in china and get fucked.  Just my two cents.

You’ve gone on around here about making society better and then when a proposed idea, that maybe those who have exorbitantly more than those who have little should assist more in helping the society they live in and it’s members out, you cut it down with some spoon fed defense of the corporations and those who run them, like you’re one of them.

 

These types of folks and the corporations that people talk about taxing higher are the same people that you’re bitching about being greedy, being in a food-medication conspiracy, and profiting off of peoples misfortune in a different thread.

 

edit: The same type of people who are family of your beloved president, who filter their fathers fortunes through marked up invoices on their properties and raise the rent on those “less fortunate” than said family. Profiting off of them. 
 

That said, i understand they allegedly did this to dodge a “gift tax,” but the previous statements still stand. Their profit, the less fortunates lose. 

Edited by abrasivesaint
Spelling and shit

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no one owes the less fortunate fuck all. you’re rich and you want to help, go for it. no one gets to decide what rich people should have to do with their money

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Posted (edited)

No one should decide what i have to do with my money either, but last year was the first time in the history of me paying taxes that i got fucked, yet the rich folks got another tax break.. makes sense. 

Edited by abrasivesaint

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2 hours ago, abrasivesaint said:

You’ve gone on around here about making society better and then when a proposed idea, that maybe those who have exorbitantly more than those who have little should assist more in helping the society they live in and it’s members out, you cut it down with some spoon fed defense of the corporations and those who run them, like you’re one of them.

 

These types of folks and the corporations that people talk about taxing higher are the same people that you’re bitching about being greedy, being in a food-medication conspiracy, and profiting off of peoples misfortune in a different thread.

 

edit: The same type of people who are family of your beloved president, who filter their fathers fortunes through marked up invoices on their properties and raise the rent on those “less fortunate” than said family. Profiting off of them. 
 

That said, i understand they allegedly did this to dodge a “gift tax,” but the previous statements still stand. Their profit, the less fortunates lose. 

My aspiration is to one day make millions and millions of dollars.  When that day comes, I will choose which charities I feel like giving money to, if any.  I sure as hell won't be down with the idea that I should pay into high taxes because other people don't want to aspire to greater things as I have done and put the work into doing.

 

To clarify, I wasn't "bitching" as you put it.  I was highlighting the fact that I had considered the same thing that @ndvhad considered.  I've said for a long time that I want to legally take money from people. That is what I intend to do, and when I get the chance to do it.... I will.  I'm still working for "the man" just like many people are.

 

If you earn a lot of money or if you're given it through inheritance ..... who cares.  The point is that I don't owe you because you're not capable or haven't applied yourself.  When you vote into programs I don't agree with, I don't want to fund those with my large tax rate.

 

Just today I interviewed for a high up tech position at a small company that will yield nearly 100% remote work and a 50% raise for me.  When was the last time anyone you know did what was necessary to get a 50% raise, or are they ok with that little trickle they get every year because they can afford to sit around their flat bitching about how the rich have become richer?  When I get enough money set aside I WILL use it to create my own business.... and if that business grows large enough to sell for millions of dollars, I will sell it.... and I will do the same thing again.

 

My intention is not to have a tax return to "spend" at the end of the year..... it's to dodge the fuck out of as many  taxes as I can legally because getting a return was gone around the same time I started making significantly above minimum wage.

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Collectivists vs Individualists. 

 

image.jpeg.ebc795c5e8d8e2f2a23890aee1a5b748.jpeg

 

It works at all scales. 

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^^ Here's the thing about "collectivism" though.  NOBODY helped me get to where I am.  It was all effort that I put forth on my own.  I read, I studied, I did.  I failed a lot, I failed until I succeeded.  I don't owe anything to anyone for where I have made it in the professional world and my reward for getting here is money.  My dad may be the one exception to that because he put a computer in front of me at an early age.  I do what I can to help him whenever I can and I don't look at it like paying him back, I look at it like doing something I enjoy doing for someone that I love.

 

So, collectivism doesn't really serve me well at this very moment.  If I were trying to "gain from the herd" I don't know what I'd be gaining.... or at least in the sense of the "local herd".  The internet has allowed selective collectivism to be a thing.  I study subjects to advance my professional career.  I don't rest on my laurels.  "Good enough" isn't good enough for me, it never has been.... and that's in my mindset.

 

I don't agree with putting a label on my self as if I'm "just an individualist" because it cheapens who I am and the accomplishments I've had in life.  I've been around a lot of entrepreneurs and I don't mean "good idea" guys..... I mean people that are millionaires.  They have a certain fire inside them that "normal" people do not.  I'm not saying they're better than anyone else as a person, in some cases they are probably worse.

 

Anyway, without yammering on and on about this, I hope it gives you some perspective about why certain types of people (many of "the rich") are not very interested in these high tax plans.  They already pay more than most people make in 5 years of salary in taxes in one year.... because of their wealth.  The term "my back hurts from carrying 'the team'" applies here.

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Everybody helped you get where you are. 

 

National defense, police, ports, roads, hospitals, education, water/sewer and the rest of your utilities and infrastructure, etc. The public education that taught people to be able to read to build all the things, etc. ALL of these details of your daily life are the direct result of collectivism and the agreed redistribution of wealth. Collectivism has served you every day of your life; thinking you've risen above everybody else because you worked hard (apparently harder than me or anybody else on this board who disagrees with you) is dissonant from reality. 

 

It's audacious af or just naive to say everything you have is from you and yours unless you're living in backwoods Alaska off-gridding EVERY detail of your life. 

 

The rich use more of the infrastructure--utilize our road system more heavily, demand more from the powergrid, etc. If you eat a bigger piece of the pie--you pay more. Taxes aren't theft, you pay to play.  

 

 

 

Join or Die argument remains--if you think you can hack it as an individual because "collectivism doesn't really serve you well at the moment)  then stop mooching off everything that our collective taxes have given you. Turn off your power, use only well water, stay off the roads, etc. (hyperbole for effect).

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dirty_habiT said:

They already pay more than most people make in 5 years of salary in taxes in one year.... because of their wealth.

(Reinserts the meme about why the super rich can pay higher taxes than they do.) 

 

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I should probably go back and read the entire ;last page rather than just skim the last two comments, but there's limits to collectivism and for a society to be free, it should be nearly entirely voluntary. Many that think like I do would argue it should be entirely voluntary as I'm sure @Mercerwill probably step in and talk about.

 

In my mind, its disingenuous to point to public works and infrastructure and use that as the basis for an argument on why all of us should be paying taxes. Reality is you can with little time or effort look up state and federal budget breakdown and see the fractions of a percent that actually go to fund that sort of thing. Likewise, even the ardent government supporter would have a pretty difficult time making an argument for how well managed, efficient or effective that vast majority of government operates. Reality is even intelligence and war can be fought more efficiently and effectively via the private sector and that's basically what government is best at. But going back to specific mentions in your statement, "National defense, police, ports, roads, hospitals, education, water/sewer" a good many of these are actually privatized. Ports are privately owned and managed. Only government involvement is accountability and oversight because they're considered National Security concerns. Roads should truly be managed at the local level and anything that extends beyond should be a tool road with all funds accounted for and unavailable for anything beyond the immediate improvement / extension / maintenance of that road with full transparency and audit. Hospitals are largely private and a much broader discussion, but even as such, anyone that think the government has done a good job stepping in and all but taking over our medical system is either crazy, on drugs or thoroughly lying to themselves - current events not withstanding. I'd even argue that policing and the majority of National defense can easily be privatized and fact is that a good deal of it already is as well. Once again we can point to prior threads and talk about the shit show that industry is, whether its quota based hiring, corruption or whatever else. Willing to bet that if we didn't leave people so fuckin stupid, distracted and dependent through the public education system, poorer areas might catch on to what the rich, rural and *mostly* ethnic areas do and take security / policing into their own hands.

 

Sure we can certainly assess the reality of what it would be require to be the *lone wolf* survivalist, which is unlikely and unrealistic for just about the entire population. But if we're going to use that extreme to define one end of the spectrum and socialism to help define the other, I think we'd all be far better off with the pendulum largely hovering at the survivalist end of things.

 

Doesn't matter if you're in teh camp that hates Trump or in the camp that hated Obama. End of the day, you're trusting a complete stranger with more strings attached than you can even begin to imagine, to step into your life and govern you and the world around you and assume they have your best interest at heart. Just the fact that an individual would be compelled to step in and think they know whats best for you and that they will change the world around you to suit a vision they have should immediately tell you a lot about that individual, as well as scare the shit out of you. 

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10 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

(Reinserts the meme about why the super rich can pay higher taxes than they do.) 

 

You seem to be missing the point..... they're already paying high taxes, they don't owe you or me anything.  Why do you think that because someone "can" do something that they "should"?  How about you just worry about your money since that's all you're legally allowed to control instead of trying to steal from "the rich" aka "the ambitious".  You have no ambition if you think that paying higher taxes is what's needed.

 

Also, what is it that you think these "higher taxes" should be dedicated to?  I'm curious to hear your answer.

 

@Fist 666- none of those people "helped" me do anything anymore than they helped you or anyone else.  Those are services paid for by taxes.  Given what I've heard you say in the past I would not be surprised to hear you say the police should get less money from our taxes.  You also seem to be misunderstanding here.  Yes, I live in the same society everyone else does.... but I have utilized what is available to me to a degree that others have not.... MANY others.  Do not attempt to cheapen my accomplishments by saying that I didn't work harder than you or anyone else.  You have no idea how much I've worked or about the choices I've made that had NOTHING to do with anyone else's influence or decision.  You make decisions everyday that nobody else is a part of and so does everyone else.  I think it's incredibly naive and dissonant to attribute one's success to those around them when those around them have all acted selfishly (the way you should) to worry about themselves.

 

Don't ever forget, I'm number 1.  Not you, not anyone else.  Me.  I make decisions for me and I use the tools available to me that I've paid for with my taxes.  The tools available with the "low taxes" that have been paid (according to you) were enough combined with my choices to get me where I am..... so what is the logical reasoning for needing more money?  Are people not capable?  Do I have some special gift that allows me to extract more from "society" than you or anyone else?

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Idk man. I just try to post memes that makes me exhale out my nose while scrolling or chuckle or snort or whatever

 

if i post a meme about killing someone I don’t wanna kill anyone 

 

I’m no commie

 

some one being capable of burning $600 mil paying influencers to post shitty memes makes me uneasy though. 
 

like wouldn’t we only need a third of that to give Flint clean water? Or that $600 mil would be a cool start for so many things... and the $600 mil is literally a drop in the bucket when you’re taking $63 billion. He’s gonna get his campaign money back from dividends. 
 

he burned an amt of money that could be used for so much good ... in a dick measuring contest with his golf rivals. Again makes me uneasy that level of divide between him and parents buying groceries at 99c stores exists. 

 

it doesn’t make me feel good that that can happen

 

but at the same time we are so balls deep in our system here we really can’t change or adjust anything. It’s going to keep rolling this way until the country dissolved and a new one begins. 

 

 

also - the super rich who donate to charity (I’m picturing paintings being donated to govt buildings in this scenario) do so for the tax breaks on that donation. Buy a painting for $250k get it appraised for $500k. Donate to govt building. Write off charitable donations for $500k. Double your initial $250k investment in the painting. 

 

some of them may do it for over all good... anonymous charitable donations. 
 

but when you’re dealing with financial advisors, investment account managers, bankers and tax lawyers.... they’re all gonna want their cut and advise against the anonymous drop off 

 

idk. I’m looking from the outside in. There’s an entire backyard out there but all I can see is what’s visible though the crack in the fence I have my face smashed up against trying to get a glimpse. 
 

it’s a life none of us will ever know. If we were, we would already be well on our way. 
 

 

 

—-

 

 

im all jacked up on caffeine. Ignore me if none of that makes sense. I’m probably all over the place lol 😝 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Fist 666 said:

The rich use more of the infrastructure--utilize our road system more heavily, demand more from the powergrid, etc. If you eat a bigger piece of the pie--you pay more. Taxes aren't theft, you pay to play.

Yes, and they pay higher taxes than you do for that privilege.  Have you checked out tax brackets lately and seen what percentage of income people are paying in the upper brackets?  Only greed would drive someone to think they should pay more money into "the system".  This is the SAME system that is available to you, that you're not using to that level.... and it's ONLY your fault so stop trying to blame others and get them to pick up the slack for you.  I can't stand working with coworkers that think like that ("tax the rich"), and for the most part I haven't had to for a very long time because all the people in my group have a similar mindset ("reduce our taxes in any way possible because they're 'high'").  You're choice, sit around and complain, or go make more money.  No sweat off my gooch either way breh.... you just aren't going to get a pass from me trying to take more of my money through higher taxes, period the end.

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This whole idea of the rich make more, they should pay more is complete crap.

 

They already do!    

 

@Fist 666 -  I do agree with you to an extent.  Yes, @Dirty_habiT, you, myself, and everyone one else is a product of the last gen that built the resources we all equally use today.   But it shouldn't be a financial punishment if someone decides to use the resources in a different manner by paying higher taxes if it works out because they want to better themselves.

 

Being self employed rather it's a one man band operation or you have 20,000 employees.  We all have to pay payroll taxes not to mention the federal taxes.  

 

Payroll taxes are bunch of crap.  It's basically being taxed twice.  You pay your taxes that you see deducted on your paycheck.  And I pay taxes on what i just payed you, that you do not see on your paycheck.  Then I have my business taxes, mud tax, school tax, just to name a few.

 

Then when all of that is said and paid for I get to pay myself.  And I get taxed on that too.

 

 

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If you want more taxes to be paid "into the system" then do what is necessary to get yourself into a higher tax bracket and encourage others to do so as well.  The more people in higher tax brackets the more taxes will be poured into "the system".  There is nobody to blame but yourself if you don't think there are enough monies in the tax pool to go around.  It's nobody else's "fault".  It's you and your buddies.  All you have to do is go get a raise.

 

There in lies the problem, people that want "high taxes" to be paid don't want it to be paid out of their money, they want it paid out of someone else's money because in their opinion that "rich person" has "an excess" of money.  There is contention in what "you" consider excess and what "I" consider excess.  To someone in section 8, $100 is a lot of money (if they're not addicted to hard dope).... but to someone living in a $4M loft in downtown, $100 is tiddly winks.  So why is it that the "person in section 8" should get a say so in what someone who has done very well at managing their money should pay "into the system"?  My guess is they should have little to zero say-so, more leaning on the zero say-so side.  When you're capable of managing your money to the point of having millions of dollars in liquidity then maybe you can talk about what your peers should do.... and you may be considered an authority on the subject.

 

We don't ask people that are not authorities on subjects what the best plan of action is because they don't know themselves.... or they'd be enacting it for themselves.

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1 hour ago, KILZ FILLZ said:

also - the super rich who donate to charity (I’m picturing paintings being donated to govt buildings in this scenario) do so for the tax breaks on that donation. Buy a painting for $250k get it appraised for $500k. Donate to govt building. Write off charitable donations for $500k. Double your initial $250k investment in the painting. 

-------

im all jacked up on caffeine. Ignore me if none of that makes sense. I’m probably all over the place lol 😝

 

Yes, people do know the game of shuffling around tax write offs like that..... and I'd say "it's ok" unless you're a scum bag and that's all you do.  People like Bill and Melinda Gates have donated MASSIVE amounts of cash to charities, and yes it's a write off.  I wouldn't try to say that it's "less of a good deed" or less charitable if they get a write off from it.  If that were the case, then next time anyone takes something to GoodWill, don't take the receipt and don't claim those donations on your taxes.  The reality is, EVERYONE tries to get this write off from charitable donations, "the rich" are just able to make larger donations and they get larger write offs.

 

All I'm pointing out in this response is that, yes, people do what you outlined, but people also give anonymously without the write off, and give massive amounts with a write off that aren't "paintings in the white house".

 

I think it's important to highlight what you did and I know you're not thinking it's the only scenario that takes place.... but I don't want anyone that may be thinking about all angles to think it's the only scenario that takes place.

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2 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

All you have to do is go get a raise

Sweet jesus, what a statement. 

 

To touch on that point and a point @misteravenmade about hospital mismanagement: The hospital staff i’ve met through the years rarely get raises, myself included, and when they do theres gaps of years. It is exactly why i left my old position. Meanwhile we watch the hospitals dump $4million into new paintings, plants, and chairs in the lobby while denying raises and the hospital around them sinks further and further into chaos because the employees are constantly quitting due to mistreatment and getting paid about the same as a Whole Foods produce stacker while dealing with a FAR more stressful and dangerous job while working 10-12-14-16hr shifts. 

 

To address some other points:  
 

- I do worry about my money, and why i got fucked on my taxes by the current Presidents plan, (the one you’ve claimed is helping the average American,) yet the rich got breaks again.
 

- To answer your question earlier about knowing someone who has raised their income by 50%, i do, me. I raised my income by about 150% a few years ago because i was sick of not seeing the “little trickle” you mentioned. I was a single man, with 0 ties. Other people aren't in the same situation and cant afford taking the risk i took and losing a job, especially those that live in a bullshit “right to work” state.

 

- You’re still confusing yourself for people with far more in the bank like Bloomberg, Bezos, whoever.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Dirty_habiT said:

If that were the case, then next time anyone takes something to GoodWill, don't take the receipt and don't claim those donations on your taxes

Sort of a side bar, and i’m not being a smart ass, but people actually claim this sort of shit on their taxes? 
 

I have never claimed any sort of donation on my taxes. Maybe if i claimed anytime i gave a bag of clothes to the Salvation Army, gave away some old furniture, or threw $20 at some charity i’d be a millionaire too. (Now i’m being a smart ass.) 

Edited by abrasivesaint
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8 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

 The hospital staff i’ve met through the years rarely get raises, myself included, and when they do theres gaps of years. It is exactly why i left my old position.

----------

To answer your question earlier about knowing someone who has raised their income by 50%, i do, me. I raised my income by about 150% a few years ago because i was sick of not seeing the “little trickle” you mentioned. I was a single man, with 0 ties. Other people aren't in the same situation and cant afford taking the risk i took and losing a job, especially those that live in a bullshit “right to work” state.

----------

You’re still confusing yourself for people with far more in the bank like Bloomberg, Bezos, whoever.

So seriously, why stick around.  Are you masochistic?  I don't see why you'd do something that VERY OBVIOUSLY makes you unhappy.  Unless you love what you're doing and the money you're making.... then I can understand why you do it.  But if your heart desires more, then go out and get more.  Nobody will just "give it to you" regardless of anyone thinking it's owed to them or "the rich" have "too much".

 

Yes, but why stop at 150%?  I was making 25-33% of what I make now 10 years ago.  The only reason I am where I am now is because I learned new things and I went to new jobs asking for what I wanted rather than sitting around "being loyal" to a business that doesn't give a rat's ass about me.  You highlighted this sentiment in saying the hospital buys paintings and plants.  If they "gave a rat's ass" they would give you raises and keep up with market rate, but the fact of the matter is.... they LOVE workers that sit around being loyal taking those 2% and 0% raises year after year.  They get a highly experienced person that knows the job well that is willing to work for peanuts and will never argue.  They fall in line and do what is wanted from them rather than shaking the system down like people that will jump ship at the drop of a hat will.  The person that sticks around is upper managements DREAM.... so my question is why give someone else what they want to sacrifice what you want?  Again, back to number 1. I'm gonna go after what I want every time because I'm not going to wait for my manager to "care enough" to give me a big raise, that day will NEVER come.

 

The guy that just left my work with 10 years of tenure was making 10k less than what I was hired at.... and he's WAY more experienced than I am.  So why is that?  How can you explain the fact that me, that's way younger, less experience, less knowledge about the company, and less loyal to the company can come in making more money than someone that has so much "more to offer"?  It's because they "love" his type of work ethic.  They LOVE having him take all the responsibility and paying him little for it.  The same thing happens when someone that works somewhere for a long time is promoted.  They may get a 10% raise over their "currently low" wage.  Where as a new employee coming in at that "promoted" job title will make 10% more than the person that got promoted to that title.... and they have no experience.  The company cannot attract new talent with low wages, they have to pay higher than before.... and that's exactly why you're encouraged to never talk about your wage with your coworkers.  The guy that left making 10k less than me would have been PISSED if he knew how much I was making.

 

I'm NOT confusing myself with other people that are millionaires/billionaires..... I'm relating to what it's like to be in a higher tax bracket.  For everyones' reference:

 

Screen Shot 2020-03-07 at 12.17.48 PM.png

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22 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

Sweet jesus, what a statement.

Btw, the thinking that makes that statement sound crazy to you is the thinking that will keep you from getting that raise.  I don't mean get a raise from your current job, I mean jump ship or change occupations.  Use some of your free time to do something new instead of sitting around like you "deserve this free time".  That's what highly successful people do, they don't get home from work and flip on netflix to chill.... they keep working on themselves to better their position in the world.  They sure as shit don't want to hear from the netflix chillers about how much more tax they should pay when they're putting their nose to the grindstone.  I think Misteraven will relate to this with how much of his time and effort he's been putting into getting the printing press business off the ground.  He's doing that so he can make FAR above minimum wage and be in control of where his money comes from and where it goes.

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22 minutes ago, abrasivesaint said:

Sort of a side bar, and i’m not being a smart ass, but people actually claim this sort of shit on their taxes? 
 

I have never claimed any sort of donation on my taxes. Maybe if i claimed anytime i gave a bag of clothes to the Salvation Army, gave away some old furniture, or threw $20 at some charity i’d be a millionaire too. (Now i’m being a smart ass.) 

Actually people do.  I do when I donate something.... but I don't often donate, there are plenty of years that I don't take anything to goodwill.  But the point is, the things you donate you likely paid for in some way shape or form even if it weren't with cash.  You must receive some value for what you "give away".  It's not much but it's worth claiming on your taxes because this is exactly what the highly successful people of the world do.  They may not do it themselves, but they have enough money to pay someone to itemize the SHIT out of their taxes.  If you make a lot of money you certainly do not want to "not itemize" your expenses because if you don't then you just basically pay the maximum amount possible.  The government "rewards" people through tax breaks that go through the effort to do things like start/run businesses and make charitable donations.  This means that the large machine that Raven bought to print these awesome shirts is a write off because it's a business expense.  If he doesn't write that off then he can just pay for it with his own cash, but that's not how running a business works unless you don't want to be profitable.

 

So, yes, you should be doing everything possible to lower the amount of taxes you pay.... and this goes for people that "get a return to spend" as well.  The more you itemize the larger that return you get will be..... but the fact of the matter is that most people "getting a return" don't do anything to increase their return.... they just "take the minimum" that turbo tax or credit karma gives them.  I'm not saying any of this to disparage what anyone does, I'm hopefully making some people realize that they have more power in this world than they're giving themselves credit for.

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For posterity : this thread was split from the memes thread, I didn’t create a new topic. 

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I added a note to the initial post as well @KILZ FILLZ..... edit it as you see fit if you don't like the wording since it is your post.... and I don't want to encroach on it any more than I already did by splitting the thread.

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Posted (edited)

Denmark here, that place Bernie talks about, and that Trump didnt want to visit after we told him he couldnt buy Greenland.

 

Taxes work, top-taxes (the word used when taxing super-high incomes) also work. 

The problem I see is that millions of people believe in the "american dream" where one day an average joe with some hard work and lottery-type luck can suddenly rise to become a millionaire. They think itll happen to them (spolier: it wont!), and therefore are against top-taxes even though its not in their favor, or their families favor, or their societies favor, or their states favor. Its only in the favor of some 0,00001 whatever percent of some crazy rich ruling class that theyll never be a part of. So yeah, fight their fight, defend their wealth while millions live in misery in a supposed 1st world country...

Edited by Europe
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