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Mercer

Hong Kong

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Thought this interesting and deserved it's own thread.

 

7 hours ago, One Man Banned said:

 

21 hours ago, Mercer said:

Oh shit...

 

 

 

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Glad this all finally got mentioned, was waiting on it.  The media take on this has been that the people of Hong Kong are fighting a proposed change in law that would allow HK to send those arrested for certain crimes to mainland China for prosecution.  The people of HK have stated a fear that this could be used to try to silence and/or punish people who speak out against the government, for example.  HK and Taiwan maintain a certain level of much disputed  independence from China for those who don't know.  So it was interesting for me to talk to someone from Taiwan a few weeks ago and be like hey, Taiwan must be kind of happy about HKs proest and disruption, eh?  Saying fuck you China, we're maintaining our own laws here.  Was surprised to find this was not the case at all.  What I was told, that has not been reported in the US media I have seen, is what started this.  They said that someone from HK brutally raped/murdered a girl in Taiwan and then escaped to HK.  HK has refused to extradite the person back to Taiwan to answer the charges, which is what led to discussion of changing the extradition laws.  I think most of us will agree that there are real concerns of how the Chinese government could abuse such a law.  On the other hand, I believe most of us might feel a bit uneasy about a child raper/killer walking around.  Discuss?

So in the Agorist community, these protests are held in the highest regard. To us, this is what fighting for freedom actually looks like. On a personal level even more stoked watching display, after display of non violent resistance which Agorists like myself obviously hold in the highest regard. Considering the vast system of reeducation/concentration camps China has, and the fact that millions are sent to these places, and die in them every shows me these people are nothing like the protesters in the United States who face a night in jail at most.

 

I do know they're protesting a Hong Kong law allowing Hong Kong's citizens to be extradited to China without any formal charges being filed. Like China could always scoop up a criminals if they had charges, but now they want to kidnap you for something they saw in your text messages, and don't want to go through the trouble of actually charging you. Hong Kongs parliament is at the mercy of Beijing and knows it, the citizens don't realize that yet and this is where they're taking their stand. I feel sorry for what is going to happen to them but at the same time hope we'd have balls enough to do what they're doing if I were in their shoes. There's something about non-violent resistance I find fascinating, MLK, Ghandi, Mandella, it would be nice if Hong Kong was able to make some progress, fingers crossed but skeptical.

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Digging through Youtube for knowledge, came across this Ho.

 

 

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Mainly non-violent protests.  On the other side of violence did you see the mafia guys beating people on the subway?

The Taiwanese perspective I was given was that HKers have an elitist attitude and no one should feel bad for their current situation because, had they extradited one terrible person to Taiwan to face Taiwanese, not Chinese justice, none of this would be happening now.

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Hmmm, I don't know about all that, sounds like some animosity there, probably bad info. I'm skeptical of anyone generalizing groups with "Elitist Attitude" and is happy to see some horrible shit happen to other people, or think it's justified. Taiwan has no sway over the Chinese Government, or Hong Kong for that matter so I'm not sure how anything involving Taiwan could have prevented this extradition law, and the umbrella protestors.

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It's not that they're happy, they're upset that HK would not extradite someone given the charges and given that they were not going to China.  You can understand HK not wanting to extradite to China, but to Taiwan or anywhere else of their choosing and under the circumstances?

 

Taiwan has more sway than you think or for one, they would be China already.  But two and more importantly the political climate there is never really stable and you have one party that would like to be one country with China and another party that wants to declare Taiwan a separate country.   

 

HK is one place in China I haven't been unless I maybe passed through their airport once.  Taiwan was interesting though.  There was a drill for a China invasion while I was there, serious biz, was like the whole world stopped and went into lockdown for a few and we couldn't move on the street.

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Pretty incredible to coordination and number HK is pulling for these protests though. Some powerful images coming out of them for sure

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21 minutes ago, One Man Banned said:

It's not that they're happy, they're upset that HK would not extradite someone given the charges and given that they were not going to China.  You can understand HK not wanting to extradite to China, but to Taiwan or anywhere else of their choosing and under the circumstances?

 

Taiwan has more sway than you think or for one, they would be China already.  But two and more importantly the political climate there is never really stable and you have one party that would like to be one country with China and another party that wants to declare Taiwan a separate country.   

 

HK is one place in China I haven't been unless I maybe passed through their airport once.  Taiwan was interesting though.  There was a drill for a China invasion while I was there, serious biz, was like the whole world stopped and went into lockdown for a few and we couldn't move on the street.

I'm still confused then, Taiwan and China are enemies right? Hong Kong's legislature just passed an extradition law that sparked these protests, made under Chinese control, this doesn't involve Taiwan at all. How is Taiwan, or this lone person who wasn't extradited to them involved in this?

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Posted (edited)

Yea, looked into it. Taiwan also didn't like this new law because their own citizens that are passing through Hong Kong could now get arrested extradited to China. So they should probably be siding with the protesters on this. They have no say in this matter though, neither does Hong Kong.

Edited by Mercer

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Posted (edited)

You can’t extradite without a treaty that requires legislation behind it. HK cant enter into a treaty with Taiwan because HK is part of China and China sees Taiwan as part of China - a renegade province is the standard term. There in lies the paradox because to make the treaty there has to be one with the mainland too. 

 

Judicial system on the mainland is not independent, it answers to the Party as per the constitution. Therefore, anyone who is critical of the Party can be charged with their BS laws and extradited to the mainland for political reasons and not get a fair trial. 

 

Thats is why a lot of foreign investment will either go through HK to the mainland or the contractual agreement will be to settle disputes as per HK law rather than mainland law. 

 

Many elements if HK society have been protesting. Months ago, before it hit the news, the bankers, lawyers and business community were on the streets protesting the law (which, by the way, has not passed the legislature in HK and Carrie Lam says she will no longer table it, after a certain amount of time, if it’s not tabled it automatically slips from the roster. The protesters aren’t satisfied with that, they want it actively canned). 

 

Taiwan doesn’t want the law as their citizens, along with any citizen from any country, could find themselves on the mainland as a prisoner of the Party when even doing a stopover at HK airport. 

Edited by Hua Guofang
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That makes more sense, I had to re-examine China Taiwan relations and see if they had any diplomatic relations which I assumed were none. They even thought Trump acknowledging Taiwan existed was a gaff against China.

 

Still find it strange@One Man Banned's friend hates Hong Kong so much, any insight as to why there would be street level animosity on the part of Taiwan's directed at HK@Hua Guofang? Also, I picture this movement being brutally crushed by the China, shocked it's been allowed to fester for this long. Is that assessment accurate or do you think there is hope for this movement to gain traction?

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As I heard it, it was about HK protecting a murderer.  Other than that there's always a degree of anxiety when people act out or provoke things because the threat of China coming in is very real, hence the invasion drill when I was in Taiwan.  I think they assume some parallels with HK as an island country trying to be independent, like if HK provokes China and China responds, what keeps Taiwan from being next?  I'll ask again when I get the chance.

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10 minutes ago, One Man Banned said:

As I heard it, it was about HK protecting a murderer.  Other than that there's always a degree of anxiety when people act out or provoke things because the threat of China coming in is very real, hence the invasion drill when I was in Taiwan.  I think they assume some parallels with HK as an island country trying to be independent, like if HK provokes China and China responds, what keeps Taiwan from being next?  I'll ask again when I get the chance.

I wouldn't bother, I can understand not siding with the protests if the person is siding with the communists, but this person is clearly hateful for no real reasons and will feed you BS like when you say something bad about Trump's actions, and a mouth breather defers the conversation to something Obama did, or some bullshit 4D chess excuse. The motive of hate for large groups of citizens is a clear indicator of clouded judgement based on bad information and wrong/groupthink.

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36 minutes ago, Mercer said:

I wouldn't bother, I can understand not siding with the protests if the person is siding with the communists, but this person is clearly hateful for no real reasons and will feed you BS like when you say something bad about Trump's actions, and a mouth breather defers the conversation to something Obama did, or some bullshit 4D chess excuse. The motive of hate for large groups of citizens is a clear indicator of clouded judgement based on bad information and wrong/groupthink.

By chance I did talk to them again.  I don't think it's wrong info, people in Taian are upset about the murder and that the guy got away, which is understandable.  The anxiety piece is also a very real and daily thing.  There's a lot going on in both places, some of it is a generation gap, differences of ideas, and places going through change.  This much I've seen firsthand when there.  

 

Interestingly the person I talked to was telling me they spoke to someone from HK and not everyone is for this, again, possibly divided by generation.  Some of it was that anxiety idea- why provoke China.  Some of it was along the lines of why are you really fighting now? You were under control of England and didn't fight then.

 

As an aside shout out to @misteravenre: some of my Taiwan experience.  I was able to arrange an international 12oz meet up and make connections to there and other countries that I still have today.  

Tuya he wudao @Hua Guofang lol

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10 hours ago, One Man Banned said:

By chance I did talk to them again.  I don't think it's wrong info, people in Taian are upset about the murder and that the guy got away, which is understandable.  The anxiety piece is also a very real and daily thing.  There's a lot going on in both places, some of it is a generation gap, differences of ideas, and places going through change.  This much I've seen firsthand when there.  

 

Interestingly the person I talked to was telling me they spoke to someone from HK and not everyone is for this, again, possibly divided by generation.  Some of it was that anxiety idea- why provoke China.  Some of it was along the lines of why are you really fighting now? You were under control of England and didn't fight then.

 

As an aside shout out to @misteravenre: some of my Taiwan experience.  I was able to arrange an international 12oz meet up and make connections to there and other countries that I still have today.  

Tuya he wudao @Hua Guofang lol

Wait, so they expect Hong Kong to fight (and lose) a civil war against China so they can establish extradition treaties with Taiwan over this one dude?

 

Taiwanese friend's perspective definitely isn't hate, and  founded on very reasonable expectations.

 

Millions of innocent people dead but hey, that one murderer didn't get away.

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I'm worried that if that happened here we are too spread out and distracted to last as long as they have. 

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11 hours ago, Mercer said:

Wait, so they expect Hong Kong to fight (and lose) a civil war against China so they can establish extradition treaties with Taiwan over this one dude?

 

Taiwanese friend's perspective definitely isn't hate, and  founded on very reasonable expectations.

 

Millions of innocent people dead but hey, that one murderer didn't get away.

You have an interesting take on things at times.  

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@One Man Banned Beats having a wrong take on subject, especially when that opinion is rooted in hate.

 

Maybe I've missed something, but how would Hong Kong, who is under Chinas's direct control establish their own foreign policy with anyone including Taiwan? You think they could go around China and set up their own extradition treaty, but they won't because they're "Elitist"? There's no way to logically explain why they'd be hating outside of basic xenophobia, condemning entire groups for the actions of a few etc.

 

 

The fact they used a personal attack saying they Hong Kong was Elitist points toward an emotionally based inferiority complex. They're referring  to something completely beyond HK's control as their "real reason" for hating. I was exploring the obvious dead end in that logic to try illustrate for you how ridiculous their opinion is.

 

The idea that HK would set aside their own struggles to fight with China on Taiwan's behalf, starting with setting up extradition treaties. To me that sounds like someone trying to stretch logic to create a weak anti HK narrative. It's absurd, condemning an entire population because in their own foreign policy ignorance, I take issue with it.

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2 hours ago, Mercer said:

@One Man Banned Beats having a wrong take on subject, especially when that opinion is rooted in hate.

 

Maybe I've missed something, but how would Hong Kong, who is under Chinas's direct control establish their own foreign policy with anyone including Taiwan? You think they could go around China and set up their own extradition treaty, but they won't because they're "Elitist"? There's no way to logically explain why they'd be hating outside of basic xenophobia, condemning entire groups for the actions of a few etc.

 

The fact they used a personal attack saying they Hong Kong was Elitist points toward an emotionally based inferiority complex. They're referring  to something completely beyond HK's control as their "real reason" for hating. I was exploring the obvious dead end in that logic to try illustrate for you how ridiculous their opinion is.

 

The idea that HK would set aside their own struggles to fight with China on Taiwan's behalf, starting with setting up extradition treaties. To me that sounds like someone trying to stretch logic to create a weak anti HK narrative. It's absurd, condemning an entire population because in their own foreign policy ignorance, I take issue with it.

My dude, you might be becoming guilty of your own accusations/assumptions.  I mentioned knowing someone from a country related to the protests and added one perspective that could represent the thoughts of many or a few both  for sake of discussion as well as not seeing the media report on that piece.  I didn't say I spoke to the representative of all of Taiwan and here's how it is, yet you appear to be responding to it as if I did.  

 

Hong Kong is not under China's direct control.  Were that true, there would be nothing to protest here.  They are considered part of China, but they do their own thing there much like Taiwan.

 

You're not an online psychologist.  The reason for calling them elitists is in their (HK) not giving a fuck about the murder; as well as how they are provoking China, which could affect Taiwan, when they've allowed themselves to be ruled by another for so long.

 

I think everyone can agree on defending the principle of resisting intrusion by a cruel government.  I don't think anyone will agree with letting a rapist/murderer walk.  Therein lies the dilemma.  The principle they are defending is good, the reason they're doing it now, not so good.  I know, they're your heroes for taping over police cams and stuff, and admittedly, I enjoy that too.  But yeah, there is that rapey/murdery part too.  

 

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