12ozProphet Feedback Thread... 2019 Rebuild Edition

[misteraven]

Hello Everyone...

 

Honestly it's blowing my mind to see all this unfold. After so many years, that we're capable of putting the word out and rally up to rebuild this place. Many people told me it couldn't be done, and being honest, I questioned myself countless times along the way about it. It's obviously a different era with its own sets of challenges. I remember when the forum started, the forum felt like the wild frontier. Most people weren't online at all, let alone had a home computer with an internet connection. Later, as the internet matured and grew in popularity, so did 12oz. There was a time when 12oz was literally Reddit and Instagram in one massive platform. Threads became their own communities and people posted messages back and forth within them in near real time. Channel Zero felt like a trade show, where you recognized a few booths, bumped into a few friends, but mostly just walked aisle upon aisle in a massive labyrinth of content. I can recall how many of the original early members were seeing that even VIP was too big and they no longer knew who anyone was.

 

Then the technical issues, the infighting, my distraction and complete lack of leadership and eventually the dark era of the forum where it just sort of sat adrift for way too many years. The login system was fucked, the code that kept users logged in was fucked and the entire place turned into a graveyard. I probably went a year or more without looking at it once. As years went by I'd hear people speak of the forum with a mythical-type reverence; spoken in tones like it was some long lost civilization that disappeared, leaving behind evidence of a once great people, but now only a ruined husk left behind.

 

Then one day I notice a little movement in the shadows... An old member that dropped a comment out of nowhere. Then another member that for reasons unknown would pop up a week or more later and reply to it. A small exchange, but evidence that some life, however tiny, still existed on here. 

 

As my own priorities shifted, like many of us, I began to reevaluate what I was doing... What I'd accomplished and where I was heading with it. I began to really be honest with myself about what mattered and what was a distraction. What had potential, what the return was and how it factored into the bigger picture. What I can afford to do and what makes sense in the context of all I have in front of me. Being honest, I'm still working through how to make all this work. I've intentionally avoided certain obvious moves like seeking out partners or funding or even commercializing this place through third parties. I've been thinking a lot about how it all began and trying to fully understand the fundamentals that allowed it to become what it did, so I can apply those lessons.

 

No doubt its an ongoing process and there will be new lessons learned... There's also the very real hurdles in trying to do something pretty ambitious, without the full resources one would expect would be necessary to do this successfully. Anyhow, I'm doing the best I can with what I have to work with and very much depending on all of you guys to help me do all of this if we're going to have a real shot at being successful.

 

If you believe in what we're trying to do here, that you make yourself a real part of the community. That you enjoy your time on here, post photos, explore topics and contribute to the LOLZ. That you help us spread the word; reach out to old members and help recruit new ones. That if you really dig all we're doing, that you occasionally pickup a tee or whatever else off the shop, since that the sole revenue stream for all of this.

 

In any case, I wanted to put all of this out there. Give you guys a little context and solicit feedback about what we might be able to do or do better. For thew reasons stated, it might not be possible financially. Likewise, I'm one guy working with a couple friends that assist when they have time, so there might not be the time or technical skill available to see it through right away. Regardless, I do feel its worth discussing and with all of you guys being a part of this, I welcome your feedback big or small on how we might improve on what we have going on here.

 

 

[Deine Mudder]

tl;dr

[misteraven]

10 minutes ago, Deine Mudder said:

tl;dr

huh?

[Kults]

Just now, misteraven said:

huh?

Too Long; Didn't Read. Basically he wants a summary as social media has ruined his attention span

[Deine Mudder]

huh?

 

[CILONE/SK]

I know a sure fire way to get guaranteed success, hire these guys:

 

 

[delv]

Forum specific feedback that I wonder if others do also. Not sure if this was the type of feedback you wanted, so apologies if not.

 

On mobile, when in channel zero or another forum like metal heads, I love that I can see a topic that interests me and tap the red icon to go to the section of that thread I last read. It's great for those long ass threads. 

 

I hate that on the main forum listing page that very same icon marks that entire forum sub as read. So many times I've clicked the red icon next to channel zero and marked the whole thing as read. It's Hella frustrating.

 

Have others done this? Am I just a dumbass?

 

To me there is a pattern in the UI that does very different things and confuses me and I suspect, others. 

 

As for the forum / 12oz as a whole, I'm wondering whether it needs to get as big as it once was? I'm a fan of small niche communities doing cool shit, but that's just me. 

 

I wonder whether there is a need to audit and overhaul the categories of the forum. Would reducing the number make it more accessible and easier to navigate (especially for new users)? Would that actually make a difference?

 

I'd love to see collabs on merch from either present or past members. 

 

I could feedback on random shit all day but my favourite part is Raven being back in the driver's seat and for doing shit to a quality level to get things moving. 

[misteraven]

3 minutes ago, delv said:

Forum specific feedback that I wonder if others do also. Not sure if this was the type of feedback you wanted, so apologies if not.

Yes, this is the feedback I was looking for. Any feedback on any facet of 12oz that has drawn your attention is of interest to me.

 

4 minutes ago, delv said:

Forum specific feedback that I wonder if others do also. Not sure if this was the type of feedback you wanted, so apologies if not.

 

On mobile, when in channel zero or another forum like metal heads, I love that I can see a topic that interests me and tap the red icon to go to the section of that thread I last read. It's great for those long ass threads. 

 

I hate that on the main forum listing page that very same icon marks that entire forum sub as read. So many times I've clicked the red icon next to channel zero and marked the whole thing as read. It's Hella frustrating.

 

Have others done this? Am I just a dumbass?

When you hit the red icon on the forum index, yes you do get presented with the opportunity to mark it as read, but you also need to confirm it. How are you marking it as read AND confirming it by accident? I see the merit of a consistent UI for sure, but also in the age, its not unusual to have contextual menus and features that change according to the surrounding content or area you're in.

 

4 minutes ago, delv said:

As for the forum / 12oz as a whole, I'm wondering whether it needs to get as big as it once was? I'm a fan of small niche communities doing cool shit, but that's just me. 

We have the best of both worlds now... We have the forum at large, as well as the groups section, which I believe will be the future of 12oz. The groups can be as big or small as you want them to be. They can be hidden, private, read only or fully open and public. These are owned and managed by the person that starts it and whoever they assign as moderators to their group. As things grow and get overwhelming, I think it'll naturally splinter off into user created subs, which on here are called groups.

 

4 minutes ago, delv said:

I wonder whether there is a need to audit and overhaul the categories of the forum. Would reducing the number make it more accessible and easier to navigate (especially for new users)? Would that actually make a difference?

@Mercerand a few others have suggested this, but I feel that its not needed. Even in the last week, the landscape has changed significantly. If we see the same exponential growth again, it'll mean that each sub section is getting trafficked pretty thoroughly. Its easy to consolidate things, but would be a nightmare to break apart once there's heavy traffic again. It'll be near impossible to organize it back so that people that remember a specific thread in a specific section can navigate back to it without a full forum search. I'm still keeping an eye on things and its on my mind, but rather than focus on how to make it look busy on the forum, I rather dedicate efforts to spreading the word and recovering user accounts so it is busy on here.

 

4 minutes ago, delv said:

I'd love to see collabs on merch from either present or past members. 

Its my goal to reestablish 12oz on its own two feet so nobody can pint back and claim that it was them that turned 12oz into whatever. Plus I'm still feeling things out and exploring how to interpret ideas and my vision into tangible product, so there is that as well. But ultimately, I just want to lay a solid foundation before I branch out too far with it. Collabs specifically with members can be interesting, but right now we're still working to establish volume with the core release stuff. This Forum Reunion tee is doing very well in context of the last few releases, but between the $12 cost most are bought for and the overall number and revenue it represents, we're very far from the scale and momentum to know that we're all good with the revenue stream. Being honest, 12ozProphet continues to steadily loose money considering the time, resources and financial investments I've made and will have to continue, but likewise, I have enough successes and positive feedback to indicate we have as good a shot as anyone at turning this back into something significant. At least we're no longer hemorrhaging money, but I have a ways to go and need both a lot more support from you guys and a lot larger a base of people that are equally enthusiastic about what we're doing to be in the clear with all of it.

 

4 minutes ago, delv said:

I could feedback on random shit all day but my favourite part is Raven being back in the driver's seat and for doing shit to a quality level to get things moving. 

Thanks man... Doing all I can to do cool stuff. Hopefully more and more people start to notice it and 12oz becomes a viable, if not profitable business with plenty of funding and resources to evolve and do increasingly ambitious stuff. Again, please help spread the word.

[delv]

@misteravenholy shit there is a confirmation to mark as read....seriously how the fuck have I been missing that? Like....yes it's been there but for whatever reason I'm confirming. 

 

Err....maybe just ignore that feedback. Lol

[~KRYLON2~]

12oz has that Blues Brothers feel to it right now, time to get the band back together

[El Mamerro]

I honestly have a really hard time with the current forum's layout and composition on desktop. I find it deeply uncomfortable to read. 

• The contrast level is too low overall, especially for main message text. Everything else pops out so much more than what should be the most important bit of info: the message itself.
• Lots of similar-sized text for multiple different hierarchies of info. Seems to rely more on very subtle contrast level variations to differentiate and I feel like I'm doing more work than I should to scan around.
• Text stretches indefinitely with browser window size. As an ultrawide monitor user who is often full-screened, this absolutely wrecks readability for me.
• A lot of pictures load super large, uncomfortably so. Super easy to lose track of where one is in a thread as skinny post dividers slip in between images.
• Huge amounts of blank space, punctuated by small bits and bobs of text and color on every corner. It feels both too sparse and too noisy at the same time, I don't know how.
• None of this is an issue on mobile, where it looks wonderful (but which I'll rarely use) except maybe the contrast issue. A specific example I'd point out is how nice and compact the user info is at the top of each post header on mobile, compared to desktop where it's blown up as an entire sidebar that ends up spilling down a ton of dead space on longer posts.

On general issues, it's a fact that reading patterns have changed, unfortunately, mine included. For me it's not so much social media as it is Reddit, where no one is really obligated to keep messages short, but the general etiquette is to do so anyways. 

 

Also, just 2 or 3 days ago I logged in here and some of the top posts where bumped "classic" threads that are deeply homophobic/transphobic/misogynist, and I don't know about yall, but I'm in a different place in life these days and I don't have patience for any of that shit. I know I don't have to read them but the fact that they're still around and people are getting yuks out of them definitely gives me pause on coming back if this community hasn't grown past that.

 

 

[the_gooch]

8 hours ago, Deine Mudder said:

tl;dr

This is the type of person that I see when someone drops TLDR:

 

 

[misteraven]

2 hours ago, El Mamerro said:

I honestly have a really hard time with the current forum's layout and composition on desktop. I find it deeply uncomfortable to read. 

1. The contrast level is too low overall, especially for main message text. Everything else pops out so much more than what should be the most important bit of info: the message itself.
2. Lots of similar-sized text for multiple different hierarchies of info. Seems to rely more on very subtle contrast level variations to differentiate and I feel like I'm doing more work than I should to scan around.
3. Text stretches indefinitely with browser window size. As an ultrawide monitor user who is often full-screened, this absolutely wrecks readability for me.
4. A lot of pictures load super large, uncomfortably so. Super easy to lose track of where one is in a thread as skinny post dividers slip in between images.
5. Huge amounts of blank space, punctuated by small bits and bobs of text and color on every corner. It feels both too sparse and too noisy at the same time, I don't know how.
6. None of this is an issue on mobile, where it looks wonderful (but which I'll rarely use) except maybe the contrast issue. A specific example I'd point out is how nice and compact the user info is at the top of each post header on mobile, compared to desktop where it's blown up as an entire sidebar that ends up spilling down a ton of dead space on longer posts.

On general issues, it's a fact that reading patterns have changed, unfortunately, mine included. For me it's not so much social media as it is Reddit, where no one is really obligated to keep messages short, but the general etiquette is to do so anyways. 

 

Also, just 2 or 3 days ago I logged in here and some of the top posts where bumped "classic" threads that are deeply homophobic/transphobic/misogynist, and I don't know about yall, but I'm in a different place in life these days and I don't have patience for any of that shit. I know I don't have to read them but the fact that they're still around and people are getting yuks out of them definitely gives me pause on coming back if this community hasn't grown past that.

 

 

Appreciate all he feedback and will consider what I can to address some of it after I've had the time to review and consider. I've numbered your line items to make them a little easier to address...

 

1. Would you mind sharing a screen grab? Obviously it appears different across monitors and platforms, in addition to how an individual has it setup. I try not to make it too contrasty because it's actually more difficult on the eyes when viewing large blocks of text for long periods of time. Personally, I feel with my setup (desktop, 4k) its actually too contrasty. I do think that additional spacing between lines of text would probably be useful. Maybe even bump the text size a point, though its at a standard size now and you can easily increase using the browser controls.
2. There's a lot of features, so yeah... A lot of controls and links. But at the end of the day, its mainly just about reading the post itself right down the middle. I'll consider this, but unsure if there's a fix since I'm literally one person and barely holding things down as is.
3. Not sure I understand, please explain.
4. I agree and was already planning to do something about this. There was an interim version of the board where all images were fairly small and linked to a larger version and the few people around at that time complained and said they wanted it to be full size inline.
5. Again, unsure what you mean or if theres a fix for it. Obviously there's a lot going on, but most elements and features are streamlined to be somewhat minimal.
6. Most traffic is from mobile so that's good to hear.

The forum is the forum and representative of a cross section of society globally. I think that with most the world being hyper politically correct, its leading to a worse dynamic between human beings. I wont stand for someone being attacked on this forum and will address that as it presents, but not going to shutdown unpopular ideas or opinions as a default response asnd certainly not going to erase history on the board because it no longer toes the line thats been drawn in the sand since. Also don't think it's right to start trying to police this community heavy handed since it was largely that attitude that drove me off Instagram and likely a lot of the other people on here. People are flawed, sometimes they say dumb shit. If there's a real problem we'll address it as it happens.

[misteraven]

1 hour ago, the_gooch said:

This is the type of person that I see when someone drops TLDR:

 

 

Assume you're trolling considering the preceding post.

[El Mamerro]

1 hour ago, misteraven said:

Appreciate all he feedback and will consider what I can to address some of it after I've had the time to review and consider. I've numbered your line items to make them a little easier to address...

Funny you mention traffic being mostly mobile, I was gearing up for a longer response here on my phone but then remembered typing on a phone sucks, which is why social media favors brevity which is why reading patterns have changed so much. The site is wonderful to read on mobile, but there’s no fixing phone typing, which disincentivizes long-form participation.

 

Ill hit you up with screens and better explanations when I’m back on desktop!

[delv]

5 hours ago, El Mamerro said:

Funny you mention traffic being mostly mobile, I was gearing up for a longer response here on my phone but then remembered typing on a phone sucks, which is why social media favors brevity which is why reading patterns have changed so much. The site is wonderful to read on mobile, but there’s no fixing phone typing, which disincentivizes long-form participation.

 

Ill hit you up with screens and better explanations when I’m back on desktop!

I've recently been hitting the mic button in my android keyboard and speaking out my responses to texts, emails and this site when on mobile. It's actually really great. Strongly recommend. 

[Mercer]

6 hours ago, El Mamerro said:

Funny you mention traffic being mostly mobile, I was gearing up for a longer response here on my phone but then remembered typing on a phone sucks, which is why social media favors brevity which is why reading patterns have changed so much. The site is wonderful to read on mobile, but there’s no fixing phone typing, which disincentivizes long-form participation.

 

Ill hit you up with screens and better explanations when I’m back on desktop!

As someone who types out long technical reports for work via iPhone, I've found dictation followed up by a proofread/formatting to be better than using a keyboard in some cases. Developing strong dictation skills is probably one of the most overlooked mobile productivity hacks IMO.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Mercer

[delv]

@misteravenI realised what it was. On desktop if you hit the red icon to "mark entire sub forum as read" it doesn't give you a warning. It just marks as read without warning.

 

I'm using chrome on windows on my laptop. Sorry, on mobile it definitely gives you a warning.

 

 

[misteraven]

4 hours ago, delv said:

I've recently been hitting the mic button in my android keyboard and speaking out my responses to texts, emails and this site when on mobile. It's actually really great. Strongly recommend. 

Thats an interesting one I havent heard. Do the people around you look at you oddly? Does the sppech to text understand, "oontz, oontz, oontz" or "graff and dance"?

[misteraven]

3 hours ago, delv said:

@misteravenI realised what it was. On desktop if you hit the red icon to "mark entire sub forum as read" it doesn't give you a warning. It just marks as read without warning.

 

I'm using chrome on windows on my laptop. Sorry, on mobile it definitely gives you a warning.

 

 

Ah, I look into it. Might be a setting for that or something.

[El Mamerro]

@misteravenSo with regards to point #3,  here's a screenshot of what this thread looks like on ultrawide (2560x1080). Lack of forced max width means crazy long lines of text:

 

 

 

 

With regards to #5 (and maybe #2), it's sort of hard to explain without hand gestures, but for example, the message window here:

 

 

...every corner of that message window is activated (clockwise from top left: post time, report/share, reactions, quote), and separated by long stretches of dead space. Maybe these would these be better served if they were laid together in line on the left under the post (sort of Reddit style)? Also, seems inconsistent to have some functions as text and some as just icons. Ideally you'd have both for all functions, but otherwise better to stick to one primarily.

 

And then there's that user profile sidebar in the message, which I think just takes up so much space for something that we quickly become blind to. Only the name really matters, and avatars are cool but seem way too big here and they lose their charm pretty quick. Again, much bigger fan of how it's handled in mobile, with small avatar, name right next to it + post time + rep, done... and it's on top of the message rather than the side, which means it does a better job as a post divider.

 

And finally, here's a rendering error I get often (Chrome OSX) that messes up the formatting and breaks scannability; the quote/reaction footer detaches from the bottom:

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by El Mamerro

[El Mamerro]

* also can you make the forum sidebar on the left collapsible?

[TreSixO]

as someone who uses this forum over 75% in desktop browser mode I really love the layout 

[El Mamerro]

23 minutes ago, TreSixO said:

as someone who uses this forum over 75% in desktop browser mode I really love the layout 

reported for hate speech

[Kults]

9 minutes ago, El Mamerro said:

reported for hate speech

This ain't Reddit

[abrasivesaint]

hahaha

 

 

[the_gooch]

22 hours ago, misteraven said:

Assume you're trolling considering the preceding post.

Trolling the dude who responded to your initial post with that TLDR. 

[delv]

Fucking knew I wasn't going nuts. Ok, on mobile from the main forum list if you select a red (mark forum as read) button to open in new tab, it will mark that forum as read and not open the forum you wanted to. There is no warning or prompt to accept marking all as read. 

 

I'm forever doing this without thinking hence why I think something needs to change to differentiate between "mark forum as read" and "go to last read post in this thread". Both are the colour red and I think a colour or icon change could fix this issue simply.

 

Unless it only happens to me in which case, fuck me right? ?

Edited August 7, 2019 by delv