Father and Daughter drowned together

[CILONE/SK]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/americas/mexico-photo-of-father-and-daughter-dead-in-rio-grande/index.html

 

I just saw this photo and realized the impact it had on me.   The photo itself is iconic, but it shouldn’t undermine the story behind it.   As a parent, I cannot imagine an end to my child’s life like this.  

 

What at are your thoughts?

[misteraven]

1 hour ago, CILONE/SK said:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/americas/mexico-photo-of-father-and-daughter-dead-in-rio-grande/index.html

 

I just saw this photo and realized the impact it had on me.   The photo itself is iconic, but it shouldn’t undermine the story behind it.   As a parent, I cannot imagine an end to my child’s life like this.  

 

What at are your thoughts?

First thing to enter my mind after reading your statement, is that I have zero doubt that was the intent of them publishing it.

 

Though that doesn't take away from the horror of the image, my thoughts just go back to the how stuff like this isn't published because CNN is altruistic and trying to do good in the world. I've certainly sat in on enough meetings with both media and fortune 100 brands to know how the conversations go in regards to profiling a demographic, identifying the cultural conversation and then seeing what talking points we can engineer that help us engage an audience and develop emotional connections that in turn, facilitate the agenda (or product) we're trying to sell.

 

But beyond that, I wonder what horrors exist in Mexica that would make a person go take these types of risks / hardships. Likewise, I wonder why most people don't ask the obvious question of why the government and mainstream media is so interested in this topic right now. Is immigration actually up under the Trump administration? Is there something else happening that suddenly makes living in the USA so attractive?

 

Like all questions of this sort, I think it would be wise to take a skeptical position by default and apply logic and reason and give some consideration as to who stands to gain from winning in the context of this debate. Who stands to lose in the situation and what is it that is won or lost? Likewise, from what I've followed, the crux of the problem is not immigration, but rather illegal immigration. Yet, I've seen very little attention given towards discussing, let alone assessing or fixing the immigration system so that people don't have to risk their children by swimming across shit like that.

 

Lastly, I can't help but wonder how the dynamic of this situation might change if we took away the real reason that politicians are so focused on this.

 

What would happen if we could all miraculously agree that all immigrants are welcome with open arms, but also agree that none are allowed to vote, ever. All must pay taxes, but none can partake in publicly funded social services of any sort. (Believe this is how most of Europe and especially the UK operates, but could be mistaken as I dont follow international affairs of this sort all that closely). Would be interesting to see how quickly they'd move on to other matters.

[Hua Guofang]

 

@misteravenI’m not meaning to be rude or come across like a dick because I don’t think badly of you in the slightest. But I really wish that you would be more reluctant to hold views on issues that you admit you know little about. 

 

The debate over legal v. illegal immigration is so loud that it’s deafening even here in Australia. 

 

There most definitely are are people in the media who act based on conscience, I work alongside many of them. I agree, there are also people who only see spin and financial outcomes, but even at the top of big orgs there are people who act on principles (my wife works in an org that leads in its field, in conflict zones, for govts, mega mining companies, etc and the amount of non-public charity work they do that is not a tax write off and the help the give people and the decisions they make not to take massive contracts on principle alone would blow your mind. And they have a turnover in the realms of dollars we can’t properly fathom - think KBR/Haliburton etc). You only ever seem to jump to the most negative perspective with tinges if conspiracy (and I mean in the real, plausible sense of the term). That perspective cannot be ignored, of course, but you never communicate other perspectives that, based on real experiences, are often the actual case. 

 

Secondly, I’m surprised that you have such little knowledge of what is happening in your own part of the world. There is a huge spike in people coming across the southern border, this is not a manufactured issue, it’s as real as the nose on your face. The majority aren’t Mexicans these days, they are largely from Central America, where there is far more violence and suffering than there is hope. The drivers are numerous and real. Of course, politics, profits and ideologies are working the situation for their own causes but they are not necessarily driving it  

 

Again, don’t mean to be a dick, mate. I just often get surprised by how strong your position is on many things when you even admit yourself that you don’t know much about the situation. 

 

 

 

 

What does the pic pic do to me? It horrified me. Just as the pic of the little boy on the beach in Turkey. Just as the pics of children drowning off the shores of northern Australia. 

 

Did much change after after these pics? No, just more suffering. Will much change after this pic? No, prepare for more suffering. 

 

The fact that nothing thing ever changes and every generation after WWII has had a new reason to say “never again” only further convinced me that there is no manufacturing or contrivances here. This is what the world actually is. 

[Mercer]

Me personally, I like pissing both sides off and my keboard is in good working order so here goes. I don't believe in government/publicly controlled borders, only private property rights. Only a fool would put obeying an unjust law, ahead of taking care of their family.

 

With that, I'll admit 100% that an open border, and mass immigration will reduce quality of life (temporarily) on the more developed side of any border. Even if I had my way and ended the welfare state, I know the disparity in human capitol (non transferable skills like education/career experience/etc.) would still make it tough to preserve our quality of/way of life here (not that I think we should stop collectively stop advancing towards better ways of living).

 

To me that still doesn't justify limiting a persons natural rights to seek employment in certain areas, or infringing my neighbors rights to do business with/employ/rent an apartment to whoever he see's best fit to do so with. I don't have an answer that would please anyone on the right for this. I can only point out the fact that the border is an infringement, you may not want to associate with someone from the other side but that doesn't justify taking away someone else's right to do so.

 

 

And now to piss off the leftists:

 

So as far as the picture up there is concerned, I think it's bullshit to stand on top of an emotionally charged image of a dead kid to make a point. If we're being honest, that kid died because of a risk their parent was willing to take with their life. Posting something like forces the other side to point out the obvious, so you can get post a long drawn out emotional respose using that kids dead body to amplify your opinion. Cheap move to place the sole blame on immigration policy, and does nothing to find any kind of common ground, and improve the situation in the end. It's like when alt right groups post emotionally charged pictures of a white victimhood to support their point of view. Great for brownie points in an echo chamber, but useless for sparking any meaningful conversation, and opening minds.

 

Changing an immigration policy probably would have prevented that, then again more people might be swimming in the Rio Grande if they were allowed to, leading to an increased number of drownings. Sounds harsh, but using pictures of dead people to emotionally charge your point of view, or pretend those opposing your opinion wanted that kid to die, or don't care about dead babies is a cheap shot.

[Mercer]

This shit should be in the news section IMO, I love debate and know it's off putting to most. Plus I'd like to keep serious Mercer, and Casual Mercer's worlds from colliding. If serious Mercer sees any vulnerability in casual Mercer's posts, he will kill him, and there will be no more casual conversation and humor.

 

 

[Kults]

What do I think when I see this picture? This may upset some but poor parenting.

[misteraven]

11 hours ago, Hua Guofang said:

 

@misteravenI’m not meaning to be rude or come across like a dick because I don’t think badly of you in the slightest. But I really wish that you would be more reluctant to hold views on issues that you admit you know little about. 

 

The debate over legal v. illegal immigration is so loud that it’s deafening even here in Australia. 

 

There most definitely are are people in the media who act based on conscience, I work alongside many of them. I agree, there are also people who only see spin and financial outcomes, but even at the top of big orgs there are people who act on principles (my wife works in an org that leads in its field, in conflict zones, for govts, mega mining companies, etc and the amount of non-public charity work they do that is not a tax write off and the help the give people and the decisions they make not to take massive contracts on principle alone would blow your mind. And they have a turnover in the realms of dollars we can’t properly fathom - think KBR/Haliburton etc). You only ever seem to jump to the most negative perspective with tinges if conspiracy (and I mean in the real, plausible sense of the term). That perspective cannot be ignored, of course, but you never communicate other perspectives that, based on real experiences, are often the actual case. 

 

Secondly, I’m surprised that you have such little knowledge of what is happening in your own part of the world. There is a huge spike in people coming across the southern border, this is not a manufactured issue, it’s as real as the nose on your face. The majority aren’t Mexicans these days, they are largely from Central America, where there is far more violence and suffering than there is hope. The drivers are numerous and real. Of course, politics, profits and ideologies are working the situation for their own causes but they are not necessarily driving it  

 

Again, don’t mean to be a dick, mate. I just often get surprised by how strong your position is on many things when you even admit yourself that you don’t know much about the situation. 

 

 

 

 

What does the pic pic do to me? It horrified me. Just as the pic of the little boy on the beach in Turkey. Just as the pics of children drowning off the shores of northern Australia. 

 

Did much change after after these pics? No, just more suffering. Will much change after this pic? No, prepare for more suffering. 

 

The fact that nothing thing ever changes and every generation after WWII has had a new reason to say “never again” only further convinced me that there is no manufacturing or contrivances here. This is what the world actually is. 

BANHAMMER!

 

Kidding man, no offense taken. I'm not one to get worked up or even really offended by stuff on the internet. And unless you're purposely looking to harass, you're welcome to your own opinions - wrong or right. Most we can do is have a respectful dialogue and perhaps open each other up to different views and lines of thought that might lead to changes in opinion.

 

That being said, you really don't know much about me. I do post a lot on here, especially lately, that help paint a picture, but I intentionally avoid making blanket statements as I've come to a point in my life that I believe there is much less right / wrong in the world than we've been taught and a lot more extenuating circumstances than we are aware of or understand. I keep an open mind to the best that I'm able and ultimately fall back on a very simple to understand philosophy that centers on the human right to individual freedom and independence, as well as the individual responsibility and accountability that comes with that human right. My political belief, as well as my points of view on everything from economics to the pursuit of happiness come back to the simple premise of allowing people the freedom to do as they please, so long as it doesn't infringe on the right of another to that same end.

 

Seems there's a lot of interaction on the forum, that also mirrors what I see in real life, in which people presume to know exactly what their position is and then immediately jump into the binary dichotomy of if you don't believe as I do, then you must sit on the other end of the debate and therefore are my opposition. I'm not necessarily saying that is the case with you or specifically evidenced in your comment to me, but time and again, it would seem people are following the ingrained behaviors of simply classifying based upon the dynamic that has been engineered for the masses, which is most often an us versus them, than take the time to truly hear a person out and attempt to understand their meaning so that we can apply logic and reason to the discussion to come away with a more meaningful understanding of the topic or discussion or that individual.

 

So circling back around, you really have little, if any understanding of my knowledge of the current situation in regards to immigration. Its also surprising that you'd think you'd be more familiar with the daily interactions and debate within the USA when you are literally on the opposite side of the planet. I'm sure you get news about whats happening here and probably interact with a number of Americans that might help you get an idea of it. But same way you might see the news about the war in the middle east, doesn't give you the perspective of the soldier that's over there mobilizing through the battle field. You guys probably know that 12oz started in Miami, which is one of the primary gateways into the USA for immigration. Some might even know me well enough to know I lived half my life in Miami and always in immigrant neighborhoods (Cuban / Columbian / Haitian). Some of you might even know that my parents are both immigrants and that I'm in fact the first from my family born in the USA. I'd argue that in itself, gives me a unique perspective to immigration in this country.

 

In regards to my default skeptical position, again... I have a unique perspective into how media works because I'm literally recently retired from a professional career in media and marketing. I can't say I've sat with editors and program directors at CNN and Fox News, but I have countless hours in strategy and content meetings with everyone from Complex to the Huffington Post. Likewise, I have even more hours logged helping fortune 100 brands develop targeted marketing and demand creation strategies focused on manipulating consumer behaviors to sell product, positioning and narratives. I know precisely how insidious the strategies and agendas are when it comes to stuff that most would agree is absolutely inconsequential. I also know how things change as the zeros stack on to the end of the numbers being projected. As such, I can reasonably deduce just how scary the real picture must be when its exponentially more money and people at stake, with exponentially more powerful people engineering and executing the strategies. So yes, there is a conspiratorial aspect that shadows much of my perspective on matters like this, but hope you can see that it isn't so much theory and speculation as it is someone that was on the inside of those efforts to manipulate people for huge profit, that could no longer reconcile the process and gave up a huge successful studio and loft in downtown NYC to instead move out to the mountains of nowhere to focus on something that was rewarding in more ways than financial. 

 

I'm as horrified as anyone by those photos, if it wasn't clear in my original comment. You'd have to be a sociopath not to be. I was merely (and perhaps more honestly than I should in a public forum) stating that the first thing that came to mind after the tragic and needless loss of life captured in that photo, is that I'm 99.9% certain that it was published to cause precisely that reaction and that what qualified its use wasn't to shed light on human tragedy, but rather to continue to push an agenda that ultimately comes down to power and money. That's not fact, as I can't supply the evidence to prove it, but based upon my experiences that directly speak to my qualifications to make this assessment I'd bet my house on it.

 

Been dropping a lot of links to podcasts from this guy, but here's another... I very highly recommend you guys listen to this and form your own opinion on if what he has to say is valid, but at the very least, you'll have greater insight into part of why I think the way I do in the context of this discussion.

 

Episode-2050- A Current Look at the Great Lie of Dichotomy - https://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/the-great-lie-of-dichotomy

[Kults]

Guess I’m a sociopath ??‍♂️

[misteraven]

8 hours ago, Mercer said:

This shit should be in the news section IMO, I love debate and know it's off putting to most. Plus I'd like to keep serious Mercer, and Casual Mercer's worlds from colliding. If serious Mercer sees any vulnerability in casual Mercer's posts, he will kill him, and there will be no more casual conversation and humor.

 

 

You're the dude trying to talk me into consolidating a bunch of sections!

 

Off topic, but anyone else think we should merge most of the off topic vs graffiti stuff so there's only two or three ginormous sections? I'm opposed because I think its inevitable we'll pick up more and more momentum and eventually it'll be a mess. At that point unraveling it all will be a nightmare as it was before. Plus I'm trying to encourage the use of groups anyways, so....

[Kults]

8 minutes ago, misteraven said:

You're the dude trying to talk me into consolidating a bunch of sections!

 

Off topic, but anyone else think we should merge most of the off topic vs graffiti stuff so there's only two or three ginormous sections? I'm opposed because I think its inevitable we'll pick up more and more momentum and eventually it'll be a mess. At that point unraveling it all will be a nightmare as it was before. Plus I'm trying to encourage the use of groups anyways, so....

Id be all for it on a temp basis until the board grows a bit more to what it used to be. That way every section looks like there's some movement.

[One Man Banned]

19 minutes ago, misteraven said:

anyone else think we should merge most of the off topic vs graffiti stuff so there's only two or three ginormous sections? 

No.

[Mercer]

Bring back Crossfire!!!! lol

[Hua Guofang]

I need to reset my password, hate typing long replies on phones and have bought a new laptop with ultimate privacy practices and settings, so I need to log in each time, which requires remembering a password....

[CILONE/SK]

7 hours ago, misteraven said:

You're the dude trying to talk me into consolidating a bunch of sections!

 

Off topic, but anyone else think we should merge most of the off topic vs graffiti stuff so there's only two or three ginormous sections? I'm opposed because I think its inevitable we'll pick up more and more momentum and eventually it'll be a mess. At that point unraveling it all will be a nightmare as it was before. Plus I'm trying to encourage the use of groups anyways, so....

I think this is a good idea.  It used to be this way. 

 

Not enough users to cause cause the nightmare it was before, but that nightmare would be a good thing now.  

 

Change it back if it becomes crazy.  

 

Crossfire!!!

[CILONE/SK]

7 hours ago, One Man Banned said:

No.

Banned!!

[misteraven]

18 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

I need to reset my password, hate typing long replies on phones and have bought a new laptop with ultimate privacy practices and settings, so I need to log in each time, which requires remembering a password....

Nope, you can stay logged in if you wish. You can reset easily in your account settings. Or DM me if you need help. There’s also two factor authentication for the security conscious amongst you. 

[Mercer]

@misteravenmy mobile browser boots cookies, and clears history after every sesh, @Hua Guofang probably has the same thing going.

 

Eventually made my password short/easy to remember so I don't back & forth between 1password every time.

[misteraven]

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

@misteravenmy mobile browser boots cookies, and clears history after every sesh, @Hua Guofang probably has the same thing going.

 

Eventually made my password short/easy to remember so I don't back & forth between 1password every time.

Hit me up when you have time tomorrow so I can help work through it. I have zero issues on desktop or mobile and have switched browsers several times. 

[Kults]

18 hours ago, One Man Banned said:

No.

 

[Mercer]

20 hours ago, misteraven said:

Hit me up when you have time tomorrow so I can help work through it. I have zero issues on desktop or mobile and have switched browsers several times. 

Can't fix it, it's a desired characteristic. Need face ID to open mobile browser, after each session all data is deleted just incase, including cookies. @Hua Guofangprobably has a similar setup, short password is an easy fix. Everything else I log in on has an app.

[mn1_fuckos]

the income divide in mexico is ridiculous.

 

Geography doesnt help the cause either. when my parents left their town they had no running water,  no pave roads, very little electricity. This was back in the 70's

 

The closest town was an hour walk the main road was a two hour walk. they decided to make the journey to the states illegally because they had a shot at a better life then they ever would have had there. Even if they had moved to the city there isn't much more promise for people with a lack of education they left their town with only the ability to read and write.

 

Knowing they would be leaving to the states also was not easy. they didnt speak the language and you can never come back once you're here in the states. 

 

these immigration raids are nothing new either during the 80's my parents never went out.  during that time period it was nothing out of the ordinary to get picked up by the INS while waiting for a bus or have them raid the factory you worked at. 

 

Most people dreamed of coming to the states only to work and then go back home. The reality is that for many that will never happen. Most will never make enough money to live a stable life here in the states. Their will kids will become accustomed to a culture and a language that they'll never understand. Ive seen parents who dont speak english unable to communicate with their own kids. 

 

Let's fast forward to present day that little town in the mountains now has electricity occasionally has running water and paved roads. amazing right? wrong all that did was make another source of income for cartels once the drug war kicked off .

 

Im not saying the area was completely safe then either shit was the wild west where in one town there were mostly widows because the men would get killed for many different reasons. 

 

think of a small town person living in middle of nowhere america. No job No opportunity and there's a chance for them to get something just a little better in canada. they know the have to go in illegally and they know that they might get caught, they might not make it or die.

 

no one leaves there homeland because they want to its because thats all you have left and All that shit is way better then what your current situation is.

 

Coming to the states gave them an opportunity even if it meant working in factories for shit pay.  My dad worked in a mercury mine in his teens, he worked in a tannery in mexico city and he worked pickin fruit.  Mom worked in a factory here in the states for about 35 years until the company moved. They were out the door at 5am my entire childhood and worked a minimum of 12 hour days 5-6 days a week. My first real pay check was both of my parents 2 week pay combined. 

 

we were never poor growing up but we were definitely broke.  We never needed government assistance or any of that shit. we always had just enough occasionally we had pizza on the weekends the even took us to the dells a couple times when they worked MAD OT.

 

mom became a citizen in the 90's dad became a citizen in the 2000's they started the process in the 80's.  Thanks to Reagan they've always had a soft spot for him because of that. 

 

my writing skills fuckin suck so my apologies for all the grammar and punctuation errors and lack of organization. 

[Mercer]

@mn1_fuckosmega props for sharing real perspective, writing skills super on point also. Post moar plz.

[Kults]

48 minutes ago, mn1_fuckos said:

the income divide in mexico is ridiculous.

 

Geography doesnt help the cause either. when my parents left their town they had no running water,  no pave roads, very little electricity. This was back in the 70's

 

The closest town was an hour walk the main road was a two hour walk. they decided to make the journey to the states illegally because they had a shot at a better life then they ever would have had there. Even if they had moved to the city there isn't much more promise for people with a lack of education they left their town with only the ability to read and write.

 

Knowing they would be leaving to the states also was not easy. they didnt speak the language and you can never come back once you're here in the states. 

 

these immigration raids are nothing new either during the 80's my parents never went out.  during that time period it was nothing out of the ordinary to get picked up by the INS while waiting for a bus or have them raid the factory you worked at. 

 

Most people dreamed of coming to the states only to work and then go back home. The reality is that for many that will never happen. Most will never make enough money to live a stable life here in the states. Their will kids will become accustomed to a culture and a language that they'll never understand. Ive seen parents who dont speak english unable to communicate with their own kids. 

 

Let's fast forward to present day that little town in the mountains now has electricity occasionally has running water and paved roads. amazing right? wrong all that did was make another source of income for cartels once the drug war kicked off .

 

Im not saying the area was completely safe then either shit was the wild west where in one town there were mostly widows because the men would get killed for many different reasons. 

 

think of a small town person living in middle of nowhere america. No job No opportunity and there's a chance for them to get something just a little better in canada. they know the have to go in illegally and they know that they might get caught, they might not make it or die.

 

no one leaves there homeland because they want to its because thats all you have left and All that shit is way better then what your current situation is.

 

Coming to the states gave them an opportunity even if it meant working in factories for shit pay.  My dad worked in a mercury mine in his teens, he worked in a tannery in mexico city and he worked pickin fruit.  Mom worked in a factory here in the states for about 35 years until the company moved. They were out the door at 5am my entire childhood and worked a minimum of 12 hour days 5-6 days a week. My first real pay check was both of my parents 2 week pay combined. 

 

we were never poor growing up but we were definitely broke.  We never needed government assistance or any of that shit. we always had just enough occasionally we had pizza on the weekends the even took us to the dells a couple times when they worked MAD OT.

 

mom became a citizen in the 90's dad became a citizen in the 2000's they started the process in the 80's.  Thanks to Reagan they've always had a soft spot for him because of that. 

 

my writing skills fuckin suck so my apologies for all the grammar and punctuation errors and lack of organization. 

No one is dying coming up to Canada. The economy is garbage too so not sure why most would bother anyway.

 

While I can understand why economic

migration is appealing, I believe it should be done legally. No one has an inherent right to a better life in a country that isn’t theirs. 

 

Reminds me of that court scene in BLOW where Jung gives this big speech about crossing some imaginary line. The judge smirks, tells him that unfortunately for him that line very real and he was going away for a long time. The mountains of coke he was bringing in didn’t help lol but the point stands just the same.

[misteraven]

9 minutes ago, Kults said:

No one is dying coming up to Canada. The economy is garbage too so not sure why most would bother anyway.

 

While I can understand why economic

migration is appealing, I believe it should be done legally. No one has an inherent right to a better life in a country that isn’t theirs. 

 

Reminds me of that court scene in BLOW where Jung gives this big speech about crossing some imaginary line. The judge smirks, tells him that unfortunately for him that line very real and he was going away for a long time. The mountains of coke he was bringing in didn’t help lol but the point stands just the same.

He was using it an analogy, not a comparison.

 

And yes, it should be done legally, but that's not often viable especially under the fucked up regulation / legislation we have in place. This speaks to my original couple of comments in that people are too busy arguing emotionally rather than discussing reasonably. It's going to go nowhere and end in the same stalemate it always does and personally, I find it hard to not believe its intentional. I have no doubt its a complex issue with many parts that are obvious and not. But then again, government has always had a real propensity for making things complicated and inefficient, probably so they can insure job security.

 

Doesn't need to be this difficult and willing to bet money that if we simply took voting and tax payer funds out of most, if not all, available social welfare programs off the table, this whole thing would get resolved very quickly, or at the very least would cease to be a topic for news and politics.

 

And for the record, I'm against virtually all publicly funded social welfare programs and not just ones being argued about in the context of illegal immigration.

 

Also, if you don't think this is a real agenda with the people being pawns in all this, just disconnect from the issue for a moment and focus on the language (psychosemantics / psycholinguistics) of the debate. When media and politicians use terms like "undocumented person" rather than "illegal immigrant" this in itself is a red flag as to the specific position they're coming from and all the rest should be immediately recognized as biased editorial and opinion (as if unbiased and objective news coverage even exists).

[Kults]

Ya I agree with most of that. My guess is if you took away most of those welfare programs you'd see the rate of illegal crossings plummet. Low skilled labor is being phased out with technology anyway, its not sustainable to import massive amounts of people with very little skills the way it once was. It also has to do with the voting power but you already covered that.

 

Ya, I know it was an analogy. Just not a very good one imo.

[mn1_fuckos]

No argument there I personally do not believe in open borders but I do believe they should bring back programs that allow people to come work and go back. The country can benefit from added tax revenue.  

 

Governments should be doing more to keep their people employed in their own countries but that shit isn't happening either.

 

Also it isn't cheap or easy to get over to the US illegally and I cant imagine the amount of money it would cost to get into canada. That is another reason why people aren't dying to get up to canada.

 

but you are right that "No one has an inherent right to a better life in a country that isn’t theirs."   But if they do it more power to them. 

 

I dont believe anyone has a right to prosper anywhere you either make it happen or you dont. 

 

 

[misteraven]

Would appreciate hearing @Mercerexplain his position on open borders. Considering the violence that exists in the world, it would seem crazy to me to not protect borders. Honestly, its incredible to me that there havent been roadside bombs in the USA as is common is places like Iraq and Afghanistan. Assume its simply a matter of time, but you open that up that possibility exponentially when you get a mass migration of unvetted people coming in. Likewise, same way you have walls, a door and a lock on your home, seems obvious to have the same on any property, including that of a country.

[misteraven]

Failed to mention that I'm also open to a much smarter, efficient and productive immigration policy so that those looking for a better life and willing to work towards it, have a fair opportunity to do so.

[Kults]

I got nothing else, I agree with what you guys just said.

[Mercer]

On 6/28/2019 at 4:04 PM, misteraven said:

Would appreciate hearing @Mercerexplain his position on open borders.

My position is this, (aside from criminals) I don't think I have the right to decide who lives anywhere other than my own property. So I'm for "opener" borders if that's a thing, even though I fully admit this comes with it's own set of problems.

 

On 6/28/2019 at 4:04 PM, misteraven said:

Considering the violence that exists in the world, it would seem crazy to me to not protect borders. Honestly, its incredible to me that there havent been roadside bombs in the USA as is common is places like Iraq and Afghanistan. Assume its simply a matter of time, but you open that up that possibility exponentially when you get a mass migration of unvetted people coming in.

We somehow survived during much more violent times without all of the recent restrictions currently in place. If anything, I think the focus should be put towards actual security measures. Shifting towards private agencies approving entry, treaties granting more access to foreign criminal records, investigating if people have associations with violent groups, cross checking applicants against a list of known enemy combatants. etc. This is clearly the best method to achieving security, blindly restricting travel comes with it's own consequences.

 

My real problem is when they ban entire countries from entry, without looking at the individual merit of the visa applicants themselves. Most of the countries on the "terror ban" list have never produced a single terrorist here, somehow Saudi Arabia isn't on the list?

 

I also don't believe in victimless crimes, so I'm not for detaining people without the right state issued papers, or concentrating them in these Renold's Wrap™️ camps indefinitely with zero rights. If given the choice I'd free all of them (minus anyone arrested for a crime with a victim).

 

This departure from freedom, much like communism is done in the name of pursuing a vision for a more ideal society (through kidnapping and violence). There are two sides of the same statist coin, and this form of statism is no different IMO than a government suspending private property rights in the pursuit of their vision of an ideal society.

 

I mean arguably if we had a gun ban, there'd be fewer firearm deaths. Why don't we do this? Logical consistency. We're all innocent until proven guilty, and have the right to defend ourselves. Believing people are born with inalienable rights by default, rather than needing a government to grant them to you is what all the cool kids are into.

 

If I were pointing towards solutions, instead of pointing out flaws (so much easier), I could go off on a tangent on ending the welfare state, or decentralized methods of identity verification, creating a world passports where your records are independently verified and attached to a blockchain, attaching private information to this system with varying degrees of encryption that a user could unlock when say applying for a loan, or sharing med records with a doctor. I could write a novel on the better alternatives that are being built, or currently exist, but forcing them into this conversation doesn't feel like it's the right format, nor is it realistic at this point until this government collapses, and we're ready scrap this outdated system and rebuild. 

 

On 6/28/2019 at 4:04 PM, misteraven said:

Likewise, same way you have walls, a door and a lock on your home, seems obvious to have the same on any property, including that of a country.

This analogy only works in an echo chambers where it's not questioned. Locking your door, and gating/walling off your own private property is very different from locking the door to, or surrounding property you don't own, and your neighbors are currently using.

 

If you want a gated community it's better to move into one, or build one. Forcing the rest of your neighbors into one by building a wall around your neighborhood without their permission isn't a very neighborly way to act. This locked door analogy is completely invalid, and conveniently ignores the real debate.