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misteraven

DEPENDENCY VERSUS SELF RELIANCE - 183 people stuck on train for 36+ hours and running out of food.

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Race to rescue 183 passengers who have been stranded on an Amtrak train since SUNDAY and are now running out of food after it struck a downed tree in Oregon

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6746717/Amtrak-train-183-passengers-onboard-stranded-Oregon-DAY-HALF.html

 

So here's an interesting topic I've discussed with some of you guys like @Mercerand @6Penniesand to a little with @Kults. It also extends to my Off Grid thread, but has never been discussed specifically that I'm aware of. This recent news article sort of brought it back to my attention and thought it was prime for discussion and perhaps debate.

 

It's my point of view that in general, people are far too dependent on other people and systems for their daily existence. I'm especially pessimistic about the state of the situation when its literally become expected for just maintaining, let alone surviving. I know there's a lot of criticisms about the "young generation" or "millennials" being soft, that often comes off like some crotchety old WW2 vet complaining about how unprepared, complacent and wimpy the next generation has become.

 

But at the same time, we'll work ourselves up into a lather arguing over whether there should be more than two genders accepted or whether as a society we should allow for a person that identifies as the opposite gender to use that corresponding public rest room, but hardly consider basic, tangible personal responsibility like ensuring your finically stable and have taken steps to hedge your best so you don't find yourself assed out or put in a position of needing the assistance of government or any other third party, most notably institutions and strangers. It's also my opinion that things have been orchestrated and engineered to this end, because after all, what better way to control a populace, then to have them dependent on you for basic survival, but I'll leave the conspiracies for some other thread.

 

Anyhow, I find it outrageous that in the USA, you have the sort of shit response we saw during hurricane Katrina (and several others since), or that you can have 183 people stuck on a train running out of food because they've been stuck for 36+ hours. (Spoiler alert: they just recently got pulled out). But yeah, I'd expect that in some third world country, but crazy how we can live in a country as prosperous and advanced as the USA, where literally private companies are shuttling cargo into space and planning missions to Mars and yet with all the government and support systems, that we can leave 183 men, women and children assed out for over a day. Not for nothing, but don't we have National Guard all sitting around waiting for an adventure so they can mobilize? Would it really take much resource and coordination to send a helicopter with a couple corpseman, some security and a couple palettes of food and supplies once they realize that you got almost 200 Americans stuck in a blizzard for half a day and its not looking like they'll be moving anytime soon?

 

Not sure why I find it so outrageous, but does beg the question of what a bad idea it is to depend on other for help. Sucks when it's an actual survival situation, but arguably worse when you allow this dynamic to prevail even for day to day life.

 

Thoughts?

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That's terrifying. What could they have realistically done to prevent themselves from having to depend on outside  help in that situation, I cant really think of anything. Glad theyre alright. 

 

Living in the city I just take all that stuff for granted. 

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Good question and the answer is likely not a whole fucking lot.

 

But I have learned from my experiences with traveling often for work that a flight connection gets delayed and after sitting on a flight for 5 fucking hours starving, that you find yourself at an airpot where the food court has just closed and your there dying... Waiting hours for a connection that represents another few hours in the air so that you're landing at like 1am and your there convincing your Uber to take you to a drive through on the way to the hotel (assuming there is one). As such, I learned to 1. Stock up on healthy (and unhealthy snacks) before catching a flight so I'm not getting gouged largely buying the same (if even possible) and beyond that, I also keep about 4000 calories in my backpack in the form of very dense, long shelf life stuff like protein bars and jerky that will literally keep for 1+ years without issue. I also happen to keep a pocket sized water filter that weighs a couple ounces and is literally smaller than a pilot marker, just because, as well as 6x9 pouch of basic med shit like bandaids, blister stuff, Tylenol and stomach shit because getting caught out there without or having to scramble for it when you're rushing to catch a flight fucking sucks.

 

Likewise, I've learned from certain experiences to keep a IFAK / blowout kit in my car. Even if I'm not the one that will necessarily try to decompress a collapsed lung, there could be a doctor caught in traffic and honestly, if its letting a person die because an ambulance is 30 minutes out, I'll do my best. Most of us will agree that having insurance is a good idea... What's the harm in having a $20 CAT tourniquet in your car in case you're in a situation watching yourself or a loved one bleeding out and knowing that an ambulance will never get there in time. Sure you can wrestle with your belt or pull out a shoe lace or some other macguyver shit or you can use a $20 device that has probably saved tens of thousands of lives in combat, which is why every person on a battle field has at least one. Might sound paranoid to some, but on more than one occasion have watched someone in a car accident or hit by a car die while everyone is sitting around waiting for an EMT. Used to think it would never happen to me, but now I figure better safe than sorry and I'd bet statistically more likely than your house being destroyed by a hurricane.

 

But I can say this in regards to that train situation... Is a day can easily become 3 or more. I lived through Hurricane Andrew, where my area had no power for 6 weeks and was under Marshall Law for 2 of them. Also lived through some sketchy times in NYC between 9/11 and that black out that took down the North East for almost 4 days. Shit gets really fucked up really fast and most people just sit around waiting for help to arrive. Most aren't prepared to do shit about it themselves. Not necessarily saying I have a bunker for when zombies rule the earth, but if suddenly your wife is diagnosed with cancer and your job is already iffy and you're like most that barely tread water month to month... For most intents and purposes, its a fuckin catastrophe. 

 

Anyhow, wasn't my intent to turn this into some doomsday preppers bullshit, but mostly to highlight how fragile the situation is and how complacent most people have become. I don't necessarily think people need to move off grid and build up an entirely independent lifestyle (thought it can be enjoyable and rewarding when you realize the freedom that comes with it), but likewise, to live your life thinking that the government is there to help you and in times of need, that safety net is all ready and waiting to embrace you just when you need it... Is straight retarded in my opinion. 

 

I obviously wasnt on that train, but you can definitely bet on the fact taht if I was, I wouldnt be sitting in my seat not going outside cause some clown conductor told me so. Nor would I sit around watching shit break down and people go from hungry to starving with no tangible indication that help is on its way and allow myself to go from being in a really bad situation to a desperate one. Fuck that... if I'm not wearing decent gear, I usually at least pack some. I'll take my gear, my 4000 calories, whats left of my snacks, my water filter and walk my ass down the tracks to the closest town.

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20 minutes ago, misteraven said:

I'll take my gear, my 4000 calories, whats left of my snacks, my water filter and walk my ass down the tracks to the closest town.

I think i would have done the same. The jerky hit home with me, we used to take a bunch of it with us when we'd go digging through the woods following the tracks looking for obscure lay ups. I gotta admit never really thought of bringing that other stuff you mentioned but def couldn't hurt.

 

As scary as 9/11/The Blackout was in the moment, I see pictures of people wilding out and it looked like a crazy good(albeit terrifying) time. I never lived through anything like that, closest thing to an Apocalypse I personally lived through was the Ice Storm we had in 98. The city was on its knees for almost 2 months. No power, no heat, everything going to shit. I gotta say, as a teen we had the run of the place. Logistically it was a nightmare but we had such a great time. This was before the net and cells or wtv so it would just be a bunch of use meeting up at someones house with a fireplace, using that as a home base and just going from there. Looked up a few shots from that era, it was pretty crazy. 

 

You feel invincible at that age though, if that happened nowadays I'd see it differently. Hard to find good pics from that time, taking pictures was the last thing on ppl's minds lol

 

 

ice-storm-98_1.jpg

ice-storm-98_5.jpg

ice-storm-98_6.jpg

Ice-Storm-1998-Department-of-National-Defense.jpg

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2 hours ago, Kults said:

That's terrifying. What could they have realistically done to prevent themselves from having to depend on outside  help in that situation, I cant really think of anything. Glad theyre alright. 

 

Living in the city I just take all that stuff for granted. 

when chicago had a huge blizzard back in 2011 people died on lakeshore drive. Honestly I asked myself how does that even happen when you are able bodied?  In a city and on a road that may be a half mile away (at the most) from buildings and warm places depending where you are at. 

 

I dont believe people ever think the shit may hit the fan. they know it happens to others but never to them. 

 

ghogdayN.jpg

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I like being in the middle of major disasters when I'm at home and prepared. Sounds weird but that's when people are at their best and I enjoy pulling through it. While traveling is a different story, fuck being stuck on a train for 36 hours unless the closest sign of civilization is a 24 hour plus walk away. I'm sure it didn't happen like that, I bet it was "helps just a few hours away" type situation where everyone was being tricked into staying put so Amtrak can avoid wrongful death/injury lawsuits.

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2 hours ago, Kults said:

As scary as 9/11/The Blackout was in the moment, I see pictures of people wilding out and it looked like a crazy good(albeit terrifying) time.

No, not really... What hit me hard during 9/11 was the sheer volume of displaced people. It was absolute chaos and for a week or more, there were people everywhere on street corners holding up photos begging passer bys to look to see if the recognized that person that was missing. You'd turn a corner and there'd be a wall with hundreds of photos and notes begging for help identifying and locating people or simply letters of resignation, tribute and loss. It was fucking horrible. The trains were being disrupted all over the place with cops running on board and screaming for people to evacuate due to some perceived threat causing stampedes. There were military jets circling the city 24/7 on sentry duty, meanwhile the entire city was choking on that thick toxic smoke that comes from burning synthetic shit. It definitely was not fun.

 

The blackout started out as a bit of a good time in that, people got to leave work and go hang out for the night. By the next day, it was starting to dawn on people that literally nobody was prepared. How much does the average person keep in their wallet? Keep in mind there's no ATM's and without power, they werent taking credit cards. Halfway through the second day, there wasn't anything left to buy due to runs on stores and things just going bad due to no refrigeration. By that night water pressure in most paces was a trickle and you could really start to feel tension in the air. By day three, you could tell that things were going to start getting nasty. People were pretty scared and there was zero police or support presence. I had my first born at that point and she was 3 months old. Phones werent working, text messages stopped working, businesses were shuttered and there was still no official police presence. I think another day or so and you'd start seeing shit set on fire. Again, it was far from fun.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, misteraven said:

No, not really... What hit me hard during 9/11 was the sheer volume of displaced people. It was absolute chaos and for a week or more, there were people everywhere on street corners holding up photos begging passer bys to look to see if the recognized that person that was missing. You'd turn a corner and there'd be a wall with hundreds of photos and notes begging for help identifying and locating people or simply letters of resignation, tribute and loss. It was fucking horrible. The trains were being disrupted all over the place with cops running on board and screaming for people to evacuate due to some perceived threat causing stampedes. There were military jets circling the city 24/7 on sentry duty, meanwhile the entire city was choking on that thick toxic smoke that comes from burning synthetic shit. It definitely was not fun.

 

The blackout started out as a bit of a good time in that, people got to leave work and go hang out for the night. By the next day, it was starting to dawn on people that literally nobody was prepared. How much does the average person keep in their wallet? Keep in mind there's no ATM's and without power, they werent taking credit cards. Halfway through the second day, there wasn't anything left to buy due to runs on stores and things just going bad due to no refrigeration. By that night water pressure in most paces was a trickle and you could really start to feel tension in the air. By day three, you could tell that things were going to start getting nasty. People were pretty scared and there was zero police or support presence. I had my first born at that point and she was 3 months old. Phones werent working, text messages stopped working, businesses were shuttered and there was still no official police presence. I think another day or so and you'd start seeing shit set on fire. Again, it was far from fun.

 

 

That sounds pretty bad. Im happy you and yours got through it ok.

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1 hour ago, Mercer said:

I like being in the middle of major disasters when I'm at home and prepared. Sounds weird but that's when people are at their best and I enjoy pulling through it. While traveling is a different story, fuck being stuck on a train for 36 hours unless the closest sign of civilization is a 24 hour plus walk away. I'm sure it didn't happen like that, I bet it was "helps just a few hours away" type situation where everyone was being tricked into staying put so Amtrak can avoid wrongful death/injury lawsuits.

I agree, I'm pretty sure this was the case. They were probably treating the passengers like a drug dealer treats his customers.

 

"Yeah fam I'm right down the block, be there in 2 minutes."

"I swear this time I'm pulling up just look out for me."

"Yo I got stuck at the light on the corner but I'm pulling up right now"

 

And so forth. There's really no point in leaving the train to truck through the wilderness on foot when you're being told that help is right around the corner. You don't wanna be the idiot they have to come rescue because you decided to take off instead of wait another hour for help.

 

Of course there comes a point where it's like, "Okay, they're not coming." But making that call can be difficult depending on the situation.

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The one that shocked me was the DC metro fire incident a few years back when people stayed in the car and waited it out. If the tunnel is filling with smoke the last fucking thing I am thinking about is staying put.

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I had some thoughts about this,  and then on Wednesday I scratched my cornea and have been completely dependent on my wife for some basic stuff. 

 

If I ever go blind I will kill myself. 

 

But the real point is, medical issues can occur so unpredictably that every other facet of your preparedness/training becomes moot.

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The 'perfect storm' and more bad exposure for Amtrak.  

Shit can happen anywhere anytime, hard to be on point 24/7 and be prepared for everything.  

In this case part of what hurt them is Amtrak mainly moves people between points, they don't own all the trackage they move across so when this happened they were stuck waiting for Union Pacific to come haul their ass out.  Arguably, after becoming stuck Amtrak or UP should have been able to get an engine there within hours to at least pull out the passenger cars and leave the damaged engine.  The rest may have required heavy equipment that the RR keeps in certain areas and sends out for shit like this as needed.  Would have been difficult to get that there with the highway closed.  The other part of this story is the train was stuck within view of the highway and likely the town, but snow and ice conditions had closed the highway.  Amtrak does tell people to stay on board to avoid liability for injuries people may incur.  Willing to bet though that all the crew and passengers who were smokers found a way to smoke.  

In media coverage and such I feel they neglected to show the whole picture though- no one I saw showed where they were stuck.  If you look on this map pic, it looks like they were about at the red marker.  Shitty to be stuck on a train that long, but not exactly left helpless to die either.

 

627365537_ScreenShot2019-03-02at9_21_35AM.thumb.png.fc5833ff73d9f45d9c5161c4418aacce.png

 

 

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On 3/2/2019 at 6:20 AM, Fist 666 said:

I had some thoughts about this,  and then on Wednesday I scratched my cornea and have been completely dependent on my wife for some basic stuff. 

 

If I ever go blind I will kill myself. 

 

But the real point is, medical issues can occur so unpredictably that every other facet of your preparedness/training becomes moot.

Disagree whole heartedly. 

 

Scenario 1... Knowing how to handle extreme cold temps... You're driving some shit back mountain road and accidentally find yourself stuck. Zero reception, so you decide to walk it. Slide down a ridge and end up tweaking an ankle, putting you further away from help. Most new cars have GPS (lowjack), so they'll eventually find it, but might take a couple days before family initiates a search and they connect all the dots to track you down. So you're spending a couple days in the wild at sub zero temps. Knowing how to handle that will save your life so you end up with a shitty cold couple days rather than dead.

 

Scenario 2... You're driving and end up in a super fucked up accident. You've had a chunk of metal punch through your thigh and open up your femoral artery. You're rather quickly bleeding out and likely have a 30 - 45 minute wait for an ambulance. You're lucid, but super fucked up. People that run want to help, but are freaked out and have no clue what to do. You''re trapped in a car, have a fucked up arm on the same side. You going to try and talk someone into unlacing their shoe or giving up a belt that may or may not stem the flow, coupled with the fact that you only have one good arm and are lodged deep into the wreck making it pretty difficult, if not impossible for someone to crawl in and apply whatever they scrape up for a tourniquet or do you maybe spend $21 to buy 3 Cat Tourniquets so you have one in your glove box, where you can lean over, grab it and apply one handed and maybe stem that bleeding down enough for an ambulance / EMT to come take over. 

 

Both these scenarios take very little time, money or effort. None are full proof, but each give you an exponential advantage over someone that writes it off as not worth preparing for. Those stupid tourniquets have probably saved more lives than just about any device and whereas the chances of you needing it on yourself, might be statistically slim, it was also improbably to the guy that found himself bleeding out. Maybe it's not you bleeding, but a loved one or even a stranger... I've personally been in situations several times to be among the first to come up on an accident (two of which resulted in fatalities while waiting on an ambulance). Likewise, I've personally given CPR to someone that had a heart attack in front of me. I was the only person to know CPR out of a crowd of dozens... The ambulance took over an hour to arrive and the guy ended up dying. But I still gave it a shot and perhaps if the guy wasnt quite as old or the ambulance took half as long, he'd have made it.

 

Likewise I've also lived in scenarios where I was both not prepared and fairly well prepared... Hurricane Andrew through to 9/11 and the NE Blackout. Simply have a couple hundred dollars stashed, an extra week of shelf stable food as well as the foresight to maybe fill up some containers with water before the pressure went out made a profound difference. Wasn't a life threatening situation necessarily, but could turn into one easily. Either way, being uncomfortable is far better than being desperate or dead.

 

And again, I'm not saying live your life paranoid... Just assess your lifestyle and identify the vulnerabilities and maybe take some steps to hedge against the most probable ones.

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