Venezuela

[One Man Banned]

[CILONE/SK]

48 minutes ago, Mercer said:

@CILONE/SKWell it doesn't look like you're debating, or saying I'm wrong here so I'm not sure how to respond. Feels kinda like my screenshot's source link just randomly gave you bad feelings. In all honesty I have no Idea who Glenn Beck is. I just have a hatred of government, and socialism in particular even more since it represents total government control of everything. Makes sense that a tea party guy would also hate socialism. That article just came up in a google search I made to see how Venezuela was doing.

I do think you are wrong in thinking that socialism and government control are what brought Venezuela down.   I think corruption and capitalism in the world are what did that.   The same as it has done for anyplace that has oil, and won’t give it to the rich elite in the world.  

 

Glenn Beck is the father of the tea party, which were the fore runners of this current form of the Republican Party. He used fear and propaganda to push his nonsense on Fox News until they pushed him out.  He stated blaze news after that.   

 

Yes too too much government can be bad and restricting, but if you think that any government is bad, there really is no talking to you about it.   I have found that Libertarians can be quite delusional in their beliefs.   So you do you.   I really don’t feel like getting into it with a libertarian.   

[Mercer]

So the fact that before Socialism Venezuela was rich, and after it went Socialist it became poor is the fault of capitalism?

 

I'd like to hear your explanation but it's been said before, and we all know every socialist country is poor as fuck means nothing to socialists, they blame it on other shit  even though the same thing happens every time Socialism is tried.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Mercer

[CILONE/SK]

Venezuela got screwed by outside interests in their oil.  They got their hooks into corrupt leadership, which then juiced it for all the money they could get.   Sounds like capitalism to me.   

[Hua Guofang]

Without having an opinion on the truth oftoy distribution, Glenn Beck is the furthest thing from a credible news source. He’s an ideological activist that uses sensationalism as his currency. He is not a journalist. 

 

And @Mercer, I know that you are educated and understand what is what. But I would suggest that, now more so than whenever we’ve ever been alive, check your sources, be skeptical of everyone and know who it is that brings you your information. 

[Kults]

*Grabs popcorn

[Hua Guofang]

17 minutes ago, CILONE/SK said:

Venezuela got screwed by outside interests in their oil.  They got their hooks into corrupt leadership, which then juiced it for all the money they could get.   Sounds like capitalism to me.   

Staying away from the cap/soc discussion, I often think that corruption and patronage in politics is overlooked when discussing the failure of states like that in Venezuela. 

[Kults]

[Mercer]

21 minutes ago, CILONE/SK said:

Venezuela got screwed by outside interests in their oil.  They got their hooks into corrupt leadership, which then juiced it for all the money they could get.   Sounds like capitalism to me.   

You admitted I was right in your opening statement, and said you were offended I quoted a conservative site. That's all good, you're entitled to your feelings but don't make up stuff like vague references to "outside interests in oil". What outside interest, how? Do you know what you're talking about?

 

My solution to government corruption isn't handing over more power to government officials so they can decide the price of toys are too high after destroying the currency, then  stealing them from suppliers that won't sell them. Seems like that would lead to more corruption.

[Mercer]

14 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

Staying away from the cap/soc discussion, I often think that corruption and patronage in politics is overlooked when discussing the failure of states like that in Venezuela. 

True, but how can you fix something like corruption through the very mechanism that allows it? I'm not sure exactly why there's more/less corruption, but I do know the more power you give someone the more incentives, and methods there are for corruption.

[CILONE/SK]

17 minutes ago, Mercer said:

You admitted I was right in your opening statement, and said you were offended I quoted a conservative site. 

I didn’t say you were right. This is why I hate talking to libertarians, it is always an all or nothing situation for them.   I also didn’t say I was offended.  I said you lost credibility.   

 

Do you know what you are talking about, since you do not even know who you are linking from and the biases that they have, which are blatantly out there for all to see?

Or do you just look for things that support your viewpoint, and ignore anything else?

 

 

[CILONE/SK]

17 minutes ago, Mercer said:

True, but how can you fix something like corruption through the very mechanism that allows it? I'm not sure exactly why there's more/less corruption, but I do know the more power you give someone the more incentives, and methods there are for corruption.

What about corporate corruption that screws people over for the highest money they can get?   Sounds again like capitalism.  

[Mercer]

You're not smart enough to explain how capitalism ruined Venezuela because nobody is. 

 

I've laid out exactly how socialism has earlier in the thread because I actually know what I'm talking about.

 

Enjoy:

 

On 1/25/2019 at 5:32 PM, Mercer said:

Venezuela is a near perfect example of Austrian Economic principals at work, watching the course of socialism meet it's inevitable conclusion in less than a decade.

 

After seizing a massive amount of oil company assets 2007, Chaves was able to make good on many of his bold Socialist promises of handouts and "free" government services. Creating the initial "golden age" after the revolution theft by the Socialists in power.

 

The immediate result was a loss of important human capitol. "Human capitol" in Austrian Economics terms are non-transferable individual assets and skill people have, and develop through things like professional experience, education, talent, and other skills. The leadership of the entire oil industry vanished, and while the new state run oil company was able to basically fund government at that point, it wasn't as profitable. Other companies were seized, other companies took note,  investment stopped, and the wealthy that were smart enough began moving their assets into the safest places possible, basically anywhere outside of Venezuela.

 

The initial megatheft (consisting of billions) of oil company assets lead to a domino effect of other external economic consequences. Large amounts of Venezuelan assets were seized abroad, and international sanctions were put into place. Thankfully the sanctions weren't 100% effective at first, and the government could still fund it's handouts, solidifying it's popularity with the masses, and a stronghold on power. This lead to them agreeing to international arbitration over the seizure to ease some of the backlash, which allowed some legal trade to take place, but eventually ended like this. 

 

Then the slow socialist destruction of the economy cascaded, and spread all the way down to the the local level. Government policies made it near impossible for many business sectors/businesses to operate at a profit. Fixing the prices artificially low was a popular move with voters, but destroyed businesses, which began shutting down one by one. The supply chain for many goods started to break down, some would be supplemented by seized oil money, which was experiencing unusually high prices at the time.

 

Once the oil prices dropped, the entire economy collapsed under the strain. As with any kleptocratic government, it's last resort was the same repeat of every failed state. The government prints massive amounts of money to make good on it's debts, basically robbing the value out of all the last bit of money it can't physically seize by using inflation. What was left was a country with virtually no means to operate economically, no money, no businesses, and an exodus of the human skills needed to operate an economy.

 

Inflation always starts before the mass printing, things like rolls toilet paper were eventually going for tens of thousands of bolivars. There were just too many missing pieces essential to the economic supply chain for toilet paper, like toilet paper manufacturers were gone, so were the importers, distributors, wholesalers, retailers etc. The black market wasn't able to immediately replace the entire economy, making some things like toilet paper rare, and hard to find. Because of supply and demand alone, the prices there have skyrocketed for many goods in this way before hyperinflation set in.

 

The funny thing is when faced with this damning clear evidence of socialist policy shortcomings, Socialists ignore Venezuela. Either stating it's "not real Socialism" or that it's somehow the fault of the capitalists countries, and companies now refusing to do business with these thieves.

 

 

 

 

Exerpt From the NY Times Article:  (fuck paywalls)

[CILONE/SK]

It’s not that I am not smart enough, it is that you will never change anything you think based on anything from someone on here.  What I find is funny is that you link to an article that you knew nothing about, just because you thought it proved your point.   

 

Thanks for for reminding me what a pretentious hipster you are.  I haven’t been around a lot and forgot, but you definitely reminded me of that. 

 

[Mercer]

23 minutes ago, CILONE/SK said:

What about corporate corruption that screws people over for the highest money they can get?   Sounds again like capitalism.  

For a corporation to "corrupt" there needs to be a government official that has power to corrupt. Corruption is a product of the state, not capitalism, if you don't have a government official to corrupt, there cannot be corruption. Capitalism can exist without the government, and therefore without corruption.

[Mercer]

3 minutes ago, CILONE/SK said:

It’s not that I am not smart enough, it is that you will never change anything you think based on anything from someone on here.  What I find is funny is that you link to an article that you knew nothing about, just because you thought it proved your point.   

 

Thanks for for reminding me what a pretentious hipster you are.  I haven’t been around a lot and forgot, but you definitely reminded me of that. 

 

Lost an argument you started, then resorted to personal attacks. Not surprising for someone dumb enough to think socialism is a good idea.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Mercer

[Mercer]

[Kults]

[CILONE/SK]

10 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Lost an argument you started, then resorted to personal attacks. Not surprising for someone dumb enough to think socialism is a good idea.

I didn’t lose an argument. I am just choosing not to engage with someone that doesn't come to the table with an open mind.   Even in this short exchange, you only reply to things you think you have a valid response to. Except you never actually address anything except for Socialism is bad.  Government is bad. Capitalism is good.   But you will never address how corporations are literally ruining the world for profit. 

 

Do do you own a MAGA hat?   

[Kults]

Damn it, too soon

[Mercer]

51 minutes ago, CILONE/SK said:

I didn’t lose an argument. I am just choosing not to engage with someone that doesn't come to the table with an open mind.   Even in this short exchange, you only reply to things you think you have a valid response to. Except you never actually address anything except for Socialism is bad.  Government is bad. Capitalism is good.   But you will never address how corporations are literally ruining the world for profit. 

 

Do do you own a MAGA hat?   

[Hua Guofang]

Just got told that I’m too direct to some of my colleagues. 

 

Fuck the system. 

[CILONE/SK]

Mercer, can you show us on this anatomically correct doll where the government touched you?

 

 

[Mercer]

HaHa IBet Mercer PP got TouChed liKE i imaGining dat EvIl CorpoRaTIOn touch miNE haha haha I maKe a funny FRom Dat

[Mercer]

[Mercer]

[One Man Banned]

Gentlemen I have enjoyed your spirited debate and exchange of ideas.  I tip my hat to you both.

[Kults]

16 minutes ago, One Man Banned said:

Gentlemen I have enjoyed your spirited debate and exchange of ideas.  I tip my hat to you both.

 

[CILONE/SK]

Haha. I just got too old to get into it like I used to in Crossfire.    

[misteraven]

I think its important, if we're to have a proper conversation on subjects that lend themselves to debate, to establish some base lines. Sounds crazy, but there's a lot of flexibility in the meanings of words these days, larhely because people don't actually know the meaning of words, but rather have come to their understanding of them through context. That context in turn is often through sources like media, that espoecially in recent times, have elevated the science behind psychosemantics / psycolinguistics to an entirely new level.

 

There's actually an awesome podcast on this very subject I listened to recently that I very highly recommend - http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/episode-2445-14-myths-and-misunderstood-topics

 

That being said, capitalism is simply defined as an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system, and competitive markets. In a capitalist market economy, decision-making and investment are determined by every owner of wealth, property or production ability in financial and capital markets, whereas prices and the distribution of goods and services are mainly determined by competition in goods and services markets. Wikipedia

 

It's hard for anybody to argue that this is a bad idea. What you and many others attribute to capitalism, are most often abuses facilitated and conducted by the state. The state, though claim to be against unfair advantage in free markets and thus often have legislation in the form anti-monopoly laws, actually facilitates unfair advantage through government regulation. Most often, if not nearly always (at least for the last 30 - 50 years), the legislation itself is submitted by corporations in exchange for favors (money, support and access), and the government in return passes legislation that furthers their ability to regulate markets that favor them. That is not capitalism. 

 

I'd be willing to bet that when it comes down to it, that @Mercerwould be as opposed to this as @CILONE/SKseems to be. Likewise, when you realize that Socialism by definition and structure entails a very intrusive and heavy handed approach to governing, that you can see how the very example used b y @CILONE/SKto criticize "capitalism" is precisely what often flourishes under heavy systems of government like socialism. Obviously our own government in the USA abuses its power and seeks to consolidate more of it at every opportunity. It would be illogical to think that giving them greater power wouldn't inevitably lead to greater abuses of that power.

 

Again, if we take a step back and really listen to each other, take the emotion out of the conversation and really pay attention to the nuance of language and logic, I think it's an very interesting topic that is regularly and widely discussed, but nearly always misinformed and misunderstood due to how the discussion / debate is most often presented (especially in the spotlight).

 

No disrespect, obviously, to either side. Merely saying that in order to have a proper conversation, first we need clearly define the basics and then follow up by clearly articulating the position and / or argument. Obviously evidence, especially once that can be referenced and analyzed, helps a great deal in establishing the validity of the statements being made.