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Kanye is a genius

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11 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

Yeah, I actually don't get CNN. I'm not in the US.

 

If you've got good evidence that argues against Russia attempting to undermine politics in the US - just as the US does in Russia and other countries, I'm keen to see it.

Ya that's not how that works. They made the claim, its on them to prove it happened. Which they have consistently failed to do. Its not up to me to disprove a false positive.

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5 minutes ago, Kults said:

Ya that's not how that works. They made the claim, its on them to prove it happened. Which they have consistently failed to do. Its not up to me to disprove a false positive.

Sure, that's fine. What part of the report did you disbelieve?

 

Obviously talking about the public report rather than the class reports given to the congress and the press and pres elect.

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16 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

Sure, that's fine. What part of the report did you disbelieve?

 

Obviously talking about the public report rather than the class reports given to the congress and the press and pres elect.

That's just it, they keep saying the meat is in the classified docs, yet every time they declassify something it becomes obvious it wasn't classified for national security purposes, it was done to shield the intelligence agencies from embarrassment. I just find the whole thing has become a joke. The Mueller thing has been going on for over a year now. Very little has come of it. We're way of topic now, sorry for hijacking the Kanye sucks thread :/

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1 hour ago, Hua Guofang said:

 

I was able to sit down and have a one-n-one with Jim Clapper, the former DNI yesterday and this was his biggest problem/fear about US society today, the inability to compromise and not see the other side of the argument as 'the enemy'. Was an interesting chat.

From what I've observed it's only one side of the American population that sees the people that don't agree with them as an enemy... by definition.

As an example, I know a lot of people that don't consider people that think differently from them politically to be "the enemy".  The people I'm talking about are not going to burn your stuff, ruin my city, break your cars that are parked, break your store fronts, call you racist/masoginist/sexist, etc because they don't agree with your political views.  Being an idiot is it's own punishment because people that are adept in social situations will simply ignore you as if you don't exist.  Those pointing fingers at their "enemies" have a harder life and I feel sorry for them wasting so much time and energy on a battle that cannot be won with their tactics.

I cannot imagine that any red blooded American is going to think differently after having their stuff destroyed.  I'm perfectly fine with those that don't agree with me existing and thinking/saying whatever they want.

 

edit: not meant as a jab or to polarize you Hua, you just got me thinking about something I've been considering for a while.

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@Dirty_habiT

 

This quote resonated with me

 

Quote

Ironically, the far Left today – pushing an anti-Western agenda and insisting on censoring our history, our language and our discourse – are succeeding in uniting people.

They’re uniting people against them.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-more-and-more-people-are-saying-no-to-the-pc-mob

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@Dirty_habiT- the shit we see in the street is the extreme end of it. And I don't think it's just your Antifa idiots that are the violent ones, it's on both sides and I think Charlottesville was a good example. But that's the extreme of the extreme. If you look at a lot of the social media and mainstream media its just attack attack attack from your ideological position. Pragmatism is being rolled back for hard positions based on spiritualism (as in left, right, etc.). 12OZ is a bit of an oasis, people in here are much more often open to discussion and I'd say that a massive chunk of US population is the same. But the polarisation is increasing and ideology is becoming the anchor of social discussion, which itself is increasingly becoming about beating down and belittling the opposition rather than convincing them.

 

@KultsI don't think I agree at all that parts of that report were classified to protect the IC from embarrassment. I think that's a position that is based on political attacks from people that don't want to admit that there was interference because admitting might mean having to admit that the that the election result MIGHT not be valid.

 

The IC are overprotective when it comes to info, they are risk averse. But that's their nature as their whole reason for existing is to reduce risk. Sure some people are corrupted, weak and failing, that's life and we are all human. But to say that the IC just made a bunch of shit up and that the leaders of FBI, CIA, ODNI, etc. are all in on it is the stuff of crazy town. Not to say that the IC doesn't get things wrong as well - 2002 is a huuuge example how how badly fucked up things can get. The difference with Iraq and today is that there is no political pressure from the White House to find evidence of Russian interference, this finding by the IC is based on what was picked up before any of the politicians got involved.

 

The Mueller investigation is a completely separate thing. That's about collusion with a foreign power. The ODNI report is what Russia was doing regardless of what the Trump team were doing. Russia has a VERY clear track record of these kind of operations, read about what they did in Ukraine before moving into Crimea, Donetsk, etc.

 

Anyway, back on Tila Tequila being a genius.

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8 minutes ago, Kults said:

That's the kind of discussion that is THE problem.

 

Either side of the debate can't see that they're acting the same way because they're too busy trying to destroy the other side. They're both different sides of the same coin, more about their dislike for the other side than the problems they want to solve.

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4 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

That's the kind of discussion that is THE problem.

 

Either side of the debate can't see that they're acting the same way because they're too busy trying to destroy the other side. They're both different sides of the same coin, more about their dislike for the other side than the problems they want to solve.

Disagree. There is vast difference between the tactics and behavior of the two sides. I don't see any right wing mobs breaking windows, burning cars and harassing people.

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10 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

 

 

@KultsI don't think I agree at all that parts of that report were classified to protect the IC from embarrassment. I think that's a position that is based on political attacks from people that don't want to admit that there was interference because admitting might mean having to admit that the that the election result MIGHT not be valid.

 

I mean, there might have been? Where's the proof though?

 

It was a s valid as it gets until someone proves otherwise.

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13 minutes ago, Kults said:

I mean, there might have been? Where's the proof though?

 

It was a s valid as it gets until someone proves otherwise.

I'd say that the argument isn't actually about the validity of the election, it's about a foreign power trying to interfere in US political processes. And other than the potential that they hacked a bunch of servers, they certainly try and cause havoc and chaos in US society by causing social division, sowing doubt, supporting BS conspiracy theories (like child porn rings in pizza shops, the US military running exercises but really going to take over the southern states, etc.) and the people that attack either side of the social argument are ripe for the picking.

 

Pay attention that I'm pointing to the way the media acts, the way people talk to each other and the way discussion occurs on most social media. I'm not referring to the 0.000001% that smash windows, drive cars into peaceful protesters and are physically destructive. You've missing the play if you focus on the loudest 0,000001%.

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5 minutes ago, Hua Guofang said:

I'd say that the argument isn't actually about the validity of the election, it's about a foreign power trying to interfere in US political processes. And other than the potential that they hacked a bunch of servers, they certainly try and cause havoc and chaos in US society by causing social division, sowing doubt, supporting BS conspiracy theories (like child porn rings in pizza shops, the US military running exercises but really going to take over the southern states, etc.) and the people that attack either side of the social argument are ripe for the picking.

 

Pay attention that I'm pointing to the way the media acts, the way people talk to each other and the way discussion occurs on most social media. I'm not referring to the 0.000001% that smash windows, drive cars into peaceful protesters and are physically destructive. You've missing the play if you focus on the loudest 0,000001%.

They are much, much more than 0.000001%. Check footage of their "rallies". Its really gross man. Sad to see the death of civility. And here, you said it yourself...

 

Quote

And other than the potential that they hacked a bunch of servers

That's why I don't buy a word they say anymore. They have been stating this as fact for months now. Its all nonsense.

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If you think only one side of the polarized political scene is at fault, or "they" just wrong about everything, congratulations, you're part of an even bigger problem you don't even realize exists.

 

Going back to HG's original point, I agree with Clapper, our biggest problem as Americans is that we think our greatest enemy is each other. This pattern inevitably leads to a self fulfilling prophecy. There's no real debate about issues, only discord, neither side actually cares about the greater good more than they care about "winning". It would be hilarious if it wasn't so fucking sad.

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1 minute ago, Mercer said:

If you think only one side of the polarized political scene is at fault, or "they" just wrong about everything, congratulations, you're part of an even bigger problem you don't even realize exists.

 

Going back to HG's original point, I agree with Clapper, our biggest problem as Americans is that we think our greatest enemy is each other. This pattern inevitably leads to a self fulfilling prophecy. There's no real debate about issues, only discord, neither side actually cares about the greater good more than they care about "winning". It would be hilarious if it wasn't so fucking sad.

To be fair I'm not on either side. I have no skin in the game so to speak, I'm not even American. Yes, there is fuckery and hypocrisy on both sides. IMO though it is heavily skewed.

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14 hours ago, Kults said:

To be fair I'm not on either side.

Your entire post history in this thread says otherwise.

Edited by grim540

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14 minutes ago, grim540 said:

 

Your entire post history in this thread says otherwise.

Did you

miss the part where I said Im

not American? How could I have a side? I think establishment Democrats are mostly sick in the head, that doesn’t make me a Republican.

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I'm not on either side myself and tend to agree. Granted we are often referencing the extreme, but its a bit crazy to me to see how the extreme left is largely being embraced by the mainstream, whether it be the media, celebrities or even just so many people in general.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again here for the record... When you're faced with a plate piled high with shit, doesn't matter so much if you decided to eat it with your left or your right hand... End of the day, its still a steaming pile of shit.

 

Also, people seem to lose sight of the fact that all government authority comes at the expense of individual freedom and liberty. Doesn't matter what banner it rolls in under, it's all an encroachment in which we, the people, either lose a bit of our freedom / liberty or on very rare occasion win a little back. People need to wake up to the fact that its clear both sides of the aisles are conducting themselves by their own set of rules, leaving the rest of us to be *governed* by a different set of rules that don't seem to apply to them. It's not about liberal or conservative anymore... Neither would be recognizable as such even a short as a few decades ago, let alone by the standards, ethics and especially conduct, by which either party was founded. Sooner we wake up to realize that the divisiveness of "us versus them" should be applied towards government versus governed, rather than democrat versus republican, the sooner we might start to turn a corner and improve this country and the quality of our own lives as individuals and Americans.

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I think the ‘us v govt’ is a bad idea as well. 

 

It it is impossible to live in this world today without some form of governance if for nothing else we interact on a global level, every day (like we are right now). It’s far to simple and reactionary to see the govt as those that take our liberty because they also protect many liberties at the same time. 

 

The optimal outcome is having govt that is properly focused on the national interest and minimizing intervention, unlike the utter shit we have now in most two party parliamentary and presidential systems. Don’t worry, Australia and the UK aren’t in good places these days either. 

 

To view govt as only ever in opposition to the governed is pretty limited in vision and ambition and seems to be bounded by experience rather than incentivized by opportunity. 

 

 

 

 

Finally, those with a conservative bent always think the left is on the rise and the progressive always think the right is only a few steps away from reviving Mussolini. You hear precisely the same lines either side of the fence. We are all humans, we are all biased. 

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I'm sad for Americans.  I really am.  I feel like our country is having major issues that have been brewing for a long time and I'm glad that it's finally having light shone on it.

 

Hua, I appreciate the comments you've made whether I agree or disagree doesn't matter.  I'm glad you're at least putting more thought into what you're posting than I think a lot of Americans are putting into life period.  I think many problems would be solved if people began thinking a lot more logically about the problems we're facing.

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3 hours ago, Hua Guofang said:

I think the ‘us v govt’ is a bad idea as well. 

 

It it is impossible to live in this world today without some form of governance if for nothing else we interact on a global level, every day (like we are right now). It’s far to simple and reactionary to see the govt as those that take our liberty because they also protect many liberties at the same time. 

 

The optimal outcome is having govt that is properly focused on the national interest and minimizing intervention, unlike the utter shit we have now in most two party parliamentary and presidential systems. Don’t worry, Australia and the UK aren’t in good places these days either. 

 

To view govt as only ever in opposition to the governed is pretty limited in vision and ambition and seems to be bounded by experience rather than incentivized by opportunity. 

 

 

 

 

Finally, those with a conservative bent always think the left is on the rise and the progressive always think the right is only a few steps away from reviving Mussolini. You hear precisely the same lines either side of the fence. We are all humans, we are all biased. 

If I remember correctly, you're from outside the USA, but can't remember for sure. 

 

In any case, the USA was actually founded in such a way as to try and ensure the dynamic of the people vs the government. It's actually the check and balance that was supposed to preserve our individual liberty. Our Bill of Rights was ratified as an integral component to the US Constitution and to ensure that there was a hard line in the sand that government could never cross. But the US Constitution as a whole was drafted to curtail government power, not the other way around as it seems to have become. It's charter is to make it wholly responsible to the people; a far cry from the dynamic which exists today.

 

 

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*My reference to you not being from here wasn't intended as a slight in any way. I only brought it up because most Americans seem to not even have a decent understanding of our political structure, let alone a decent understanding of how it was developed, including the history and context that led to the decisions that we're made. Figuring if people here are so uninformed, that it's likely people from outside the USA probably never got much opportunity to learn about it either.

 

Likewise, I know very little about the intricacies and history of the politics and government workings of most countries outside my own.

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9 hours ago, misteraven said:

If I remember correctly, you're from outside the USA, but can't remember for sure. 

 

In any case, the USA was actually founded in such a way as to try and ensure the dynamic of the people vs the government. It's actually the check and balance that was supposed to preserve our individual liberty. Our Bill of Rights was ratified as an integral component to the US Constitution and to ensure that there was a hard line in the sand that government could never cross. But the US Constitution as a whole was drafted to curtail government power, not the other way around as it seems to have become. It's charter is to make it wholly responsible to the people; a far cry from the dynamic which exists today.

 

 

This is why minarchy (minimal/limited government) will never work as a permanent solution to ensure liberty. It was a great idea during the enlightenment, but generation after generation, the core values inevitably become altered by a populous that is unable to focus on the intricacies of political thought. "I don't want people to do X, let's pass a law", "We all need to pay our fair share" etc. None of us, including myself have the time to earn PHD's in various fields of science to base our decisions on facts, as opposed to the shit sandwiches handed to us by sociopaths seeking to rule us, or limit our freedoms.

 

I remember being taught intentionally why free speech is important to protect, specifically why you shouldn't pass laws criminalizing hate speech, and how that could set a precedent to limit all language unfavorable by the majority rule mob, or government. Why the 2nd amendment is important, and basically all aspects of the rights protected under the constitution. This is no longer the belief held by the majority, and will encroached until it's almost non-existant.

 

I think the only solution is revolutions every so often to reset the balance. Actually fighting is too costly for most, and unnecessary in my opinion which is why I think anyone interested in the cause of liberty should be engaging in counter-economic measures. Finding private alternatives to traditional roles of government, and working towards a state of Agorism is the best route IMO. Without the internet, and crypto-currencies this task would have been very difficult in the past, but today if Agorism is properly implemented using these tools the government, and more importantly "Statists" would be helpless to stop it.

 

But yea, Kanye is one crazy dude...

 

 

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