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misteraven

Weigh In: Has the social media revolution devolved conversation?

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@Mercer was just thinking that with all you know regarding tech, privacy, block chain etc... Would be really cool to start up a thread with tips and info on how the average user can take steps towards helping preserve online privacy. Feel up for that?

 

No doubt @glorydays and @Dirty_habiT could lend a lot of insight and knowledge on that subject as well.

 

Sure, I'm down. It's funny but I always thought that this was 12oz's biggest advantage. Why publish graffiti photos on a platform designed and proven to rat you out warrant or no warrant.

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On that note, we actually use cron jobs to purge logs older than 60 days so that by the time we're subpoenaed, the information no longer exists and we cant be accused of destroying evidence. Helps maintain privacy and save precious disk space.

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My ability to read longform internet is absolutely fucking destroyed. I am super interested in reading all this thread in depth and yet I immediately felt assaulted by text.

 

THIS!!!

had to edit some photos, so i got out the laptop again....

The names i know.... tesseract, mams, dirty habit, colter!!! trent! etc, all y'all know of my prior ability to read lengthy posts and respond in kind. all. fucking. day. long. now a days tho.... i just don't fucking have it in me. and i can't imagine anyone on here, no matter my nostalgia, no matter how much i care about the past, i can't imagine wanting to sit through page after page of their thoughts. Was rad to hear tesser has a kid. I've genuinely thought of you and wondered how you were doing...but if we're being honest, i also didn't make even the smallest attempt to search for you. because thats life at 42. so caught up in my own every day struggles that while i think of others (mams, we live in the same fucking city and have never kicked it?!) it basically ends there. i think of the [literally] hundreds of folks I've met in person off this site.... i think of our talks. our friendship. i think of what they might contribute to whatever sparks their memory, and then i get distracted by whatever trapping of adult life finds me next. hell, @Joker is the only post read in full, and that was just because... well, its fucking joker, and i wouldn't have written graffiti if not for him (sorry to tarnish your legacy with mine ;) . but even on that... after 12oz, we maintained a volley of occasional emails. sharing art. sharing ideas. every single time id see something from him.... i can't begin to explain the honor i felt, that someone i'd always respected so much would discuss my work with me, and even that proved too much to maintain. Jer, i'm not sure who's turn it is to respond, but don't worry, my paintings haven't progressed much. ha.

 

i often like to imagine myself as simply dysfunctional, as if I'm different and more broken than others, but i don't think its that easy. i don't think I'm the only one. i started on prodigy message boards in 1991, amassed 30million posts on here, and finally graduated to a point i can barely reread the captions I write under my own instagram posts, and truth-be-told, i think I'm fucking hilarious! i want to think this place could reemerge in some context, and perhaps it can/will but i truly don't see it fitting into my life. i see ten year anniversaries. i see bbq's. i don't see spending lengthy amounts of time on this laptop, and sure as fuck not on my phone. part of it is growing up but a larger portion of it is the fact that at this point, what haven't i read? what haven't i heard? no offense to my friends here, who i am extremely fucking lucky to have had the opportunity to learn and grow with, but... i'm still trying to finish this rudolf steiner book, I'm not really worrying what 'cuban_nipple_crisis" has to say. :/

 

(i do want to connect 'keep it rail' tho, so if anyone has a lead on homie, lemme know).

Edited by Guest
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@seeking will respond when i get a sec and at my computer. But really glad you posted originally and honestly made my morning seeing the alert that you posted again. Not even mad you’re fighting it, LOL.

 

Spoke briefly to @Keepitrail and he said he’d get back on a after he sorted some shit out. Here’s his IG... https://www.instagram.com/keepitrail

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Ironically, plays into what you commented on about not bothering to look up and realize how many of these guys are around you.

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Alright, have a minute and will chime in with a proper reply...

 

@seeking I feel you 100%, especially about the difficulty in processing large blocks of text and all the demands on time. I have two kids and have to manage all the livestock and property in addition to my work with 12oz, which at least now is my main focus when it comes to work and even then I can't log those long hours on here. I still have other obligations for work, attend to family (freakin cat passed away yesterday - Earl RIP) and then there's the stuff you want to do for yourself, friends in the real world, etc.

 

What I can say is this: The days of any of us 35+ year olds spending 7+ hour stints on the forum are likely long gone for the most part. I certainly can't do it and I'd be pretty amazed (and a bit concerned) if any of you older guys could. But I can say that more and more often these last couple weeks, I'm genuinely excited when I check the board and see there's a bunch of alerts for new activity in threads I'm following or have posted to. I'm extra excited when I see the alerts flag users like you and other OG crew and members. Not entirely sure I can explain why, but it really feels good to reconnect, share and discuss with you guys almost 20 years after the fact of when this forum was started. Literally a half lifetime ago and longer than a lot of users on here have been alive.

 

I also have said that the future of 12oz lies in the younger generations that still have the time, lack of real life adult responsibility and the enthusiasm to explore, share, discuss and debate. Much of it (to your point) we've already done, but at the same time, as we gain experience and the world evolves, there are fresh perspectives, new ideas and insight and plenty of topics that are interesting, if not compelling and important if not flat out critical. Also previously stated is that there remain pockets of genuine community online outside of social that are not just thriving, but more successful that 12oz ever was.

 

Likewise, I agree that my attention span atrophied quite a bit as well in this last half decade. Over these last few weeks, with each comment or thread, I find it getting easier and easier. (Like riding a bike...). More significant, to me at least, is that I'm really enjoying it. After all those years on Instagram, being able to think through a position and drop it on here to whatever extent I have the time and patience for feels refreshing. After all the pent up feelings I'd been carrying around regarding 12oz, seeing so many old names pop back up on here (and a few new ones) and drop insightful / interesting / entertaining responses, has been cathartic. But perhaps more important than my own personal take-aways is the conversation I've had recently with @STYLEISKING which in turn echos the same I heard from @dekayfa, @diggity and so many more recently, which you even stated... That social media has cheapened the relationships between us all. Further to that, allowing Zuckerberg to continue middle manning the relationships between people, as well as the connections between people and a lot of the subject matter those same people are interested in following hasn't been sitting well with me. @diggity said it well when he mentioned that 12oz was an actual community. Instagram never has been and likely never will be. It's just a massive echo chamber of glimpses and excerpts.

 

Sure, I can see what you drank on the beach a few weeks back when you went on vacation. Saw this morning that your dog patiently waited for you to get home at the back door. But at the same time, back in the days, we all know that never in a million years would any of us be living in the same town and not be catching up in real life. No way would you not even know how many old friends actually live close by. No way would I know that @diggity is teaching his kid to skate yet barely even talk to him for a year or two at a time. Unlikely that you'd have connected with someone you look up to like @Joker and built the relationship that you've said inspires your own creative direction. In fact, I'm willing to bet that had it not been for the big fallout we had, the neglect I showed the forum and all the other stupid shit I did, that you guys would likely still be in communication regularly. Honestly, its crazy how all that works... We get just enough of a glimpse on social media to convince ourselves we're *connected* to the world around us, yet most of the time, its been dumbed down to dropping a stupid fuckin emoji if even that. In any case you're here and @Joker has stopped by regularly and all of us are steady reconnecting. There's no threads about rudolf steiner, but I'm willing to bet that as we build momentum back up, that there very well could be. I also think there's plenty more to explore and learn about, but most of all there's a sense of community (as @diggity put it) that Instagram was simply unable to ever replicate, even if for a the last many years it did manage to replace it.

 

@STYLEISKING articulated it strongest in our conversation in that even the culture of graffiti (no doubt serving as a small cross section of society on general) has become diluted due to social media. Was a time where you really had to work at getting down and learning a craft. That you'd get pounded on by your peers and genuinely work hard to move up the ranks of respect and accomplishment. Now there's no cost to entry, you can speak to the global white noise that is the social media world, and carve out a successful niche if you know how to play the game and because there is no longer any sort of standard or rigor applied. You can buy your followers, stream your falsehood and leverage that into an opportunity since everyones too busy doing the same thing to really call anyone else out or reached a point where they just don't even care enough to say anything.

 

Its sort of ironic that you were one of the first OGs I reached out to a few weeks ago and it really came from the fact that you were posting these long captions. That and picking up on your Instagram frustrations and feeling the same way about it. If you hadn't posted those long rants (and they are indeed funny most of the time), I'd probably have tuned it out like I have so most others on there. Not because I don't give a shit, but because I've sort of become numb on there since there's little in the way of actual dialogue and discussion.

 

Likewise, I know you're unlikely to keep your laptop at the ready and drop in regularly again, but at the same time, you do put in the effort to still put out your thoughts or opinions with more than an emoji or shallow caption like most people on Instagram. If you're going to go through the trouble, why not do it in a place where it can actually engage and inspire? I'm about to launch the next generation of the forum and it'll be as easy to post photos and drop emoji's on there as Instagram is, but for it also allows for a deeper level of engagement if you want it. Won't fix the fact that typing on an iPhone will always suck, but if you find a little extra time or feel compelled to do so, at least the option is there. Likewise, it wont be buried in moments or disappear after 24 hours.

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Not sure what to post , so ill pop off some moderator having his first baby news to break the ice, though this coming straight from a Instgram post by him . “Congrats BK” burger king .... Jake! :clapping:

 

Hello to all the old and new heads. :handfist:

 

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haha. i post repeatedly about my lack of attention span and you counter with a 10,000 word essay. it's like you're just challenging me to prove i can be a good friend and actually read the things you've taken the time to write. :)

 

100% social media has cheapened our interactions and connections. you know how often I've written about that (ironically on social media). its easy to not reach out to someone after you see a picture of their kid, because it satiates that feeling of longing that otherwise would exist. it supplies us with just enough familiarity to continue existing in obscurity. given enough years of that and a tendency towards general isolation becomes blanket policy. combine that with the days becoming shorter and obligations always increasing, at any given moment i'm working on one project while simultaneously thinking of another, texting with 3 people, liking pictures of this duck i follow on instagram, trying to avoid setting myself on fire while welding in shorts and a tank top because I'm a fucking idiot... in the midst of all that, i have a lot of conversations in my head that seem to take the place of actual interaction. it's just hard to find the time otherwise.

 

i am totally one for nostalgia and 12oz is as ingrained in the DNA of my being as anything else I've ever been apart of. i like seeing the old names. i like seeing what people are up to. the struggle is to not treat it like instagram. to not accept one update as totality and fill in the narrative around it. i hate to continue pushing the idea that we're all just automaton goldfish programmed for indifference. trying to come back here has definitely opened my eyes to just how fucking incompatible my brain has become. if nothing else, thanks for that.

Edited by Guest
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@seeking I'll keep this short for a change... Your last post is 100% on the money. You've always been a huge part of 12oz. Your insight and humor played a huge part back in the day. It's awesome to be able to hop back on and read what you have to say. This shit is fun and the more people like you pop up and join in, the more fun its going to be. Oh yeah, you might notice that the muscles used to post and read long ass rants will loosen up and grow stronger as you use them more.

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@psm026 Fuckin finally... Glad you finally stopped through dude. And yeah, reach out to @Burger King and see if you can get him back on so we can wish him a proper congratulations and catch up. Edited by Guest

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I’m calling bullshit on this. You have time for the shit you make time for. When @misteraven told me to check back in on here, I was like sure but I prob won’t stick around. I’ll drop in and say hey dickheads and move on. Yet I find myself checking back every couple of days. It’s not back at the point of me unconsciously starting to type 12oz into the web browser when I launch it but it’s honestly the best time I’ve had in a long time online. Reading long posts on my phone and responding to them is getting easier I think the problem was just I wasn’t engaged yet. Good to see @seeking in here. I’m not really sure where your living these days, figured LA. I’d love to get your address so we can work on mailing you a package with AIDS in it, maybe that will be more of a 12oz home

Coming to need. I do like seeing your dog on Instagram but outside of tattoos I haven’t a clue as to what you’ve been up to but you look well and hope life has been good for you. I’ve also lost track of KingofHell/Hyena over the years. Again, I know he’s out there tattooing some place and had some medical shit come up a few years back but am unclear exactly what or where he’s at. Guess that’s a bit off topic for this thread. Thankfully your not a mod and more so I don’t have to worry about getting banned for that.

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Need another wet t-shirt contest so motherfuckers are popping in and refreshing hourly again. Anyone know where cat eyes ended up?

 

Is it fucked up most of us are married, with kids and in some cases have graduated on to divorce and I’m suggesting that boobies might be the solution?

 

@seeking any idea where our Russian bride thread is? That was some pretty epic fun for a good while.

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Mail order bride one was pretty good. Did you guys end up calling some of them or something?

 

Seems like a remember prank calls too.

 

Married with two kids that are both girls cuts down pretty hard on the nudity threads for me. Also make it hard to check out at work, not saying to not do it, just my participation witll be limited.

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I penpal’ed one for a while. Pretty sure I sent her a mix tape at some point. Was supposed to fly her out to the 12oz warehouse but it never made it that far.

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Damn, I have a daughter too. You just fucked it up man. I was blissfully ignoring dots being connected and you killed it.

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I didn’t mean it like that, just that I wouldn’t be able it really read the thread if they were around. Does that give you enough of a hall pass?

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@diggity yes, you can always find the time if its important enough, but that's my point.... i don't know if this is that important to me anymore. its not a matter of the people, its a matter of logistics and priorities. as i write this i have three tattoos i should be drawing. i have sewing projects I'm neglecting. i need to finish making a leather sheath for a machete and knife i started earlier today. I've got a giant stack of books I've been putting off forever. i'm not sure what exactly transpired in my life, but now if I'm spending time on something that isn't outwardly productive, i stress out. i feel as if I'm just wasting valuable time. which isn't to say this community we built is a waste, its just that i don't have the opportunity i used to....

 

....this all comes back to the constraints of a message board. instagram is easy because you can check it for 2 minutes and pay as little or as much attention as you have time for. i can't randomly scroll through a board while in line at the bank, or when stuck at a stop light. this requires a level of dedication i just can't accommodate. it requires a laptop i never have on me. and i say all of this not to focus on myself, the world doesn't give a shit if i have time for message boards, its just a reiteration of my thoughts on the original question. of how our society and our lives are structured.

 

also, the mail order bride story is so much better than raven is admitting to.

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A few points from one of the younger but long term members:

1. I think most of us who grew up with this forum are faster at interpreting relevant information than we used to be. It's easier to skim internet writing now for relevant points, content, and points of conflict.

 

2. There's a specific strain of nostalgia that persists through the writing in the forum as it currently stands (specific to Channel 0 and the more off topic arenas) that almost feels redundant. This isn't a knock, just an idiosyncrasy of us attempting to realize/recreate the social structure pre social media that was emergent of the general "energy" that was pervasive within the forum.

 

3. I fear that it will never be as it was. I know it won't. I both am ambivalent towards that reality, and very sad about it. I recognize it as movement, as the only outcome of what was until now, but I also love and miss the intellect here. For all our bullshit, this was a concentrated space of very bright, brilliant, talented, and opinionated people. It was, in the truest sense of the word, a forum of ideas. I have to accept it won't come back to that.

 

Passing thoughts. Passing greetings and updates. Passing experiences and missed connections.


All that to say, wonk saggin, night owls, boogiehands, whodies, etc.

Love this place and these people.


ETA: i may not be sober rn.

Edited by the.crooked
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@the.crooked Hey man, been a minute since I've seen. Welcome back!

 

I agree with most of what you've said, but disagree that the best days are behind us or that we're beyond being able to have intelligent people chime in on intelligent discussion. In fact, this thread is proof of that and there's actually quite a few other threads are amazingly interesting and insightful discussions. No doubt many of the people participating are the intelligent OG members you're referencing, but a lot are younger kids that used to just fuck around and LOLZ on here but have since grown up. I also have @6Penniesand @glorydaysto point to as being new members that I know IRL and can vouch for being in career positions that only come when you've elbowed through the crowds and have distinguished yourself. Lastly, I'd also point to Reddit and a ton of other forums that, if anything, are only bigger and better now than they were years ago.

 

I know its a long, slow process, but it literally took this forum half a decade to go from a handful of friends and random people, to a fairly prominent online community. After letting the forum languish for year, honestly I'm amazed it even survived at all. I spent like 2 - 3 weeks before this last relaunch reaching out and promoting and say a 3 fold increase in traffic in that short time frame. Lost a lot of it after being down two weeks for the data migration and relaunch, but if anything, this forum has proven to be resilient. I'm back in the saddle full time and have dedicated myself to rebuilding 12ozProphet as a brand. We're only two days into this new forum and I'm back to catching up on product releases while also waiting to close a huge deal that'll allow for a real power move in regards to the brand and 12ozProphet in general. I have no illusions it'll happen over night or that I can really go head to head with Instagram or Facebook. But likewise, I think the social media fatigue is a real thing and Reddit and all those forums are evidence that a significant number of people are still interested in long form conversations. I believe this new forum, with all its features like the groups section, give 12ozProphet a very real shot at tipping back over and getting to be pretty huge again. It'll still take a lot of time and effort.... It won't be a replica of what it once was, but it'll be freakin cool in its own way and I won't be at all surprised to hear gripes one day that the forum has gotten too big. 

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I think you're absolutely right, @misteraven.

Truth be told I had just spent roughly 8 hours staring at receipt images for work, and was reasonably drunk and feeling down about the general state of the world last night.

I do think there are specific generational changes in how we now process information itself, but I don't think it's as bleak as I was positioning it last night.

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You can't step in the same river twice.

 

 

That said, I still really like going to the same spots on the same body of water.

I don't think I have anything profound to add, @seeking pretty well summed up my thoughts as to not even having the want to spend the amount of time on here I used to. I like blasting through, deleting a spam thread, and then perusing a handful of posts, but the idea of spending more than 30 consecutive minutes on here with everything else I have going on seems wholly ridiculous. The only social media I maintain is IG and I'm closer every day to killing that--a big piece of that stems from the fact that I don't want to see/hear other people's bullshit. IG is great for allowing me to skip text, and thus skip a person I think I like's brand of intolerance or phobias or outright stupidity. 

 

The joy I once found in arguing-on-the-internet in places like crossfire or even FB is long gone, with further growing up I've found it harder and harder to separate self proclaimed apolitical people from politically charged opinions, as such I reduce my opinion of someone, and then reduce the amount of time I'm willing to invest in a conversation with them. 

 

All that said to answer the question of the thread title: I think I'm able to be as clear in my thoughts as I am (when I put time to it) because of the amount of energy I spent typing and reading on forums like this. Memes as a response to a complex question/problem have killed conversation, not social media itself.

 

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1 hour ago, Fist 666 said:

All that said to answer the question of the thread title: I think I'm able to be as clear in my thoughts as I am (when I put time to it) because of the amount of energy I spent typing and reading on forums like this. Memes as a response to a complex question/problem have killed conversation, not social media itself.

 

You might be right about the meme part of this comment, but the lines of what even constitutes a meme have been blurred. Social media is largely memes anyways, but even when current news and media platforms use a meme like format to announce important topics or use click bait titles and strive for outrage and other strong reactions so they can pump viewership... Then what the difference?

 

End of the day, I'm still very much of the opinion that social media has cheapened our relationships and is taking huge whacks at killing online discussion.

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I absolutely agree that our relationships have been cheapened by social media. I interpreted the question to ask if our mere ability to converse has devolved. I think it has. for what I'm positing, "meme" is a picture with words on it, not a more complex definition of patterns in behavior.  I think those interested in true conversation have sought it out, while those who simply value having a platform to yell on have taken to twitter and the like to find their own echo chamber.

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Social media has given hermits a way to be social without ever having to leave the comfort of their own home. 

 

I’ve met people that will talk with you through messenger but won’t say a word when they see you in person. They need that buffer zone.

 

it’s also wild as fuck how it connects you to completely random strangers 

 

I was walking down the street in downtown Chicago a few years ago and someone walked up to me and said hey man I follow your instagram and they correctly stated my username. 

 

It it turns out we had mutual friends but it opens a wide array of doors to some people you would never have access too as well as people you don’t want to be around 

 

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