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Las Vegas Shooting and the Gun Debate


misteraven

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They share land borders with little to no border controls. Australia is and island making smuggling much more costly and risky. A lot of the weapons that have made it throughout Europe came from the war in former Yugoslavia.

 

Not a comment on gun laws in absolute terms but that different context create differing challenges in achieving security and that one country can not be properly compared to others without covering the context.

 

I'd say that one of the differences with Switzerland and the US is that the Swiss get formal training with their weapons, there is less disparity in wealth, a more homogeneous society in general. However, if I recall, Swiss has a bad suicide rate and part of that is due to easy access to fire arms making the act faster (between decision and action), less scary as the death is instantaneous and the means readily available.

 

Absolutely good point. No doubt geography will likely play a role in that. Though I do believe socio economics and culture likely play the largest role. It's interesting to note that Switzerland was among the first countries to treat drug abuse / addiction as a health issue rather than crime and to note the impact it made on their society after doing so in terms of AIDS and crime.

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@Hua Guofang was just reading the link you sent and it states: In Brazil, the right to private gun ownership is not guaranteed by law

 

That's probably the loop hole they use to basically keep people from having guns. In NYC for example, its possible to have a carry permit but the process is so difficult the only people that get them are very well connected politically and can afford the exorbitant costs of maintaining that license. So essentially rich people and politicians and the handful of private security firms that serve them. In that particualrly case, it also extends into ownership as well so there's no way to legally keep a gun in the house. Interestingly (or maybe not), the illegal guns I saw in NYC we're almost always super rich people or super shady people.

 

In the United States, in addition to the Federal Laws (of which their are 14,000+ laws on the books), there are many, many more at the state level. In general with regards to being able to carry a gun (which again often extends into the ability to keep one at home), the states break down to 'Shall Issue" or "May Issue" categories. Shall issue basically means that after a background check and certain criteria that varies per state in regards to training etc, you qualify for a permit. May Issue basically means its at the discretion of whatever governing body is tasked with approving your request. So in California for example (May Issue state), you need to state your reason for wanting a gun to the Chief Law Enforcement official for your jurisdiction (Usually the Chief of Police or Sheriff if you live in an unincorporated area) and then he decides if your reason is good enough to grant the request in addition to the background check and various other qualifications. So what happens is that in areas where you have a person being against it, no permits (or very few and often to those well connected) receive a permit and everyone else is denied. So it operates as a loop hole for a single person to pick and choose based on his own opinion and favor, regardless of circumstance and qualification, on behalf of the government to deny you the right to have a firearm. There is no recourse for the person denied a permit except to move to another municipality or city.

 

It's exactly for this reason that the BATF has a specific period of time that was decided as reasonable, in order to grand or deny a background check which is required when buying a non restricted firearm from a commercial dealer. That rule was put into affect after the BATF used the approval process as a method to slow down sales by dragging ass on background checks.

 

Just a little info that I believe might explain what Brazil does though I don't necessarily trust what shit online says, especially considering a website that is clearly anti 2A.

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That’s true, the internet definitely gives you access to tons of data and yeah it’s true you can usually frame things any outcome you want.

 

But there are certain conclusions you can draw that are for the most part indisputable. Ones position on guns is not one of those things, but the founding fathers intention for the second amendment is clearly documented.

 

I don’t feel I live my life fearful, but I do live my life believing that evil exists. I also have grown to not expect more from others than I do for myself and am weary of leaving something that’s important to me in the hands of others unless there’s a demonstrated capacity that they are more qualified and better able to execute whatever task than I am. Even then I’m a bit weary based upon past experiences.

 

If I could carry a Navy SEAL in my pocket, perhaps I would. I’ve been in and around enough shit that I’ve see the the evil I’ve described first hand. Obviously I’m alive and well, but I’ve been in situations where it could have just as easily gone the other way. Further to that, I also believe I’m less vulnerable than most people as a result of those experiences, my personality in general and because I’ve taken the time to learn how to deal with certain situations that most people don’t bother with. When push comes to shove, given the chance I much rather have the tools it takes to equalize a situation to the best that it can be even if I wind up ultimately not needing it, then find myself in some fucked up life or death situation and get stuck with my proverbial dick in my hands hoping someone else is around to save me.

 

I think where we might differ is in that you believe based upon the situation so far in Australia that the government can step in and disarm everyone and prevent mass murder from happening. I happen to be if the opinion based upon the situation I’ve seen out here to know that they could never hope to disarm everyone and especially not the subset that should never ever be armed. If magically they could do this, I also believe that it would make zero impact on the violence considering how often other tools have been used to cause it.

 

You mention that there’s been a handful of mass shootings but none since they’ve banned all guns. I’m curious how many incidents Australia has had of psychopaths setting night clubs on fire or setting off trucks full of combustible fertilizer outside of buildings or flown planes full of people into buildings with even more people, etc, etc. Point I’m making is that in many instances, including this one in Las Vegas, being armed won’t help. But in so many others it can very well be the difference between you having a chance at fighting for survival or hoping that you aren’t part of the death toll.

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Yeah you've added words to my conclusion. My conclusion is that the gun buyback program (I'm a licenced gun owner just don't have one) has made the chances of a mass murder by a gunman much much lower.

 

Also, my observation based purely on reality, is that since the buyback there has been zero mass shootings in Australia. Before it there was 13 in an 18 year period.

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The greatly reduced existence of semi auto weapons and firearms designed for combat has decreased the likelihood that the wrong people get them in Australia.

 

I don't feel that strategy/opportunity is available to the US and some other countries (Mexico, Brazil, Pakistan, numerous African nations, etc) and any country that shares uncontrolled land borders with them are pretty much screwed too. The prevalence of firearms has already reached saturation levels in too many areas of those countries and that genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

 

Raven, if history was different and guns weren't so prevalent in US society and culture I think your experiences and concerns would be different today. I also think you reify the founding fathers and constitution, which makes your thinking sometimes a little rigid. Granted they were brilliant in their foresight and the way the Republic was developed is inspiring (I gather you've read de Tocqueville). However time, technology, culture and context don't stand still and new challenges require new thinking which can build upon the old.

 

On the point of being armed in a night club/shopping Centre/school/etc, I've been on two way ranges, I've been in countries where govt has collapsed, I've run security for large events and clubs, I'm a military qualified marksman and have done a lot of close quarter combat training. Not saying this to talk myself up but to qualify the following - if I'm in a situation like Orlando the LAST thing I want is a bunch of people who are uncoordinated, untrained in CQB and that will turn a bad situation into a meat grinder.

 

It's dark and smokey, screaming people running everywhere and you've got 1 red and 5 blue, none of the blue shooters know each other and they are very unlikely to have had any relevant training. How do you think that situation is going to play out?

 

Raven, I ask this knowing that you have trained and that maybe 1% of your armed countrymen have had similar training. Picture yourself moving through a two way CQB shitfight armed and ready to defend yourself. Some cowboy with a .38 spots you through the clothing rack he's hiding in. What do you think he'll see and what do you think he'll do?

 

Then think about dark night clubs with folk that have been drinking, how well do you think 5 armed blues with no training acting independently will go in dealing with an active shooter? You think they'll all make well aimed shots on the right target or you think they'll spray the place and start shooting each other out of fear and misidentification of targets?

 

Dang it, told myself I wouldn't type all this out on my phone...,

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As a side not, in relation to the whole "founding father's intentions" argument...

 

At the time of the 2nd amendment's creation, the founding fathers were utilizing an arsenal of single shot muskets that took about at least 15 seconds to reload. I don't think anyone could have fathomed what the world experienced from World War I, and we've only become more advanced since then.

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I've seen the pictures of the hotel room on Google. Guy had a ton of mags loaded and ready to go. Multiple rifles.

 

So why.... Did it take him so long to 'reload' between bursts? The videos show about a one minute gap between bursts but what I've seen in the crime scene photos says that wouldn't be the case.

 

I've fucked around with bump fire. A screw driver nailed through a short board. Have done this with 556, 308, and hand guns. Very hard to control... Let alone from like 300yds? Getting rid of the stocks won't do shit. The varying fire rate I've heard in the cell videos tells me crank handle. Which I didn't even in know existed before this.

 

This guy was obviously a fan of firearms. Doing something like this he would've known that the result would be more talk of firearms restrictions. Do people who like guns want that? No clear motive almost a week later.

 

Reports of a woman yelling "you're all going to die!" 45min before the shooting and being escorted out of the venue .

 

Video of what seems like shots from a much lower floor than the shooters room.

 

Weird, Weird, shit.

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The amount of cell phone footage of this is nuts. What a time to be alive. I know it's taboo but I don't mind watching some gore. There where some gnarly cell videos on Twitter that morning that have since been taken down.

 

I've said it about ten times in the last few months, this is a period in time people will be learning about in history class for a long time! Trumpy, North Korea, this shit, hurricanes, kneeling during the anthem, BLM, so many things crammed in a couple year span.

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Devils advocate: it's just an assumption he was reloading during the breaks in the fire, he may have instead been sitting back and enjoying his handy work, checking his cameras, jerking off, whatever.

 

Who says he was a gun lover? Just because he used them doesn't mean he loves them. You use toilet paper, right?

 

Can you link to the footage that suggests firing from a lower floor? I can't see muzzle flash from even the 32nd floor. I assume that he wasn't close to or leaning out the window.

 

In my time working on doors I don't know how many times some drunk or coked up idiot told us he was going to come back and kill us all as we were dragging him out.

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Found the video, from a female taxi driver, filmed in the loading area of Mandalay Bay.

 

Looked into it a lil bit before posting video. No other windows broken, police radio chatter of a strobe light in one of the rooms in the center of the hotel.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

Gun lover because he owned like forty guns or whatever the number was they found between his two houses. They also found tannerite(Sp?) which is used by people who shoot outdoors for x100 fun. A casual gun guy wouldnt have either of those.

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The pics of his room and body have been leaked. I'm wondering if the gopro videos from the roomservice cart, peephole, and room will be leaked too..

 

 

I'm a huge sceptic. Doubt he lit himself up. Bet swap got him.

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40 comic books might also mean that you haven't thrown out the comic books your flat mate left behind after moving out.

 

Dude, I've owned about 10 cars and 3 motorbikes in my life but I am the furtherest thing from a motoring enthusiast. I only have one beer in my fridge right now but I am a beer lover. I have a top of the line hot tub in my backyeard but I haven't ever used it. I don't have any dogs at all but I am a dog lover. I have about 25 hammers in my garage (I shit you not) but I am not a hammer lover, I just inherited a bulk of 5 tool collections at once recently.

 

Having something doesn't make you an enthusiast.

 

You wipe your arse on average once per day every day of your life (I hope), does that mean you love wiping your arse? 1 Million people might buy the latest Tom Jones album, does that mean 1 million people like the album? No, it just means that 1 million people purchased it.

 

Even doing something doesn't mean you enjoy it.

 

You're making an assumption here that whilst plausible is by no means accurate.

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If you own ten cars at once would that not make you a car guy?

 

Where did you hear this toilet paper analogy?I think this is the third time you thrown it out there.

Edit: sarcastic Toilet paper/gun joke would translate well IRL but not in text. Deleted.

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There's an old Australian movie called The Clinic where a dude says "If I didn't like it I wouldn't do it", other dude says, "Do you like wiping your arse?".

 

I thought it was awesome and try to adapt it to any facet of life I can.

 

But in response to your car question: if one car was an off roader, another car was a van, the next car was a ute/pickup, the next car was a people mover, the next car was......, etc. Then no, I'd say that you are not a car enthusiast but a person who has many differing uses for cars and needs to accommodate them.

 

If the shooter was a gun lover you'd expect his family would have known about it, right? But they didn't (as far as I'm aware), he collected them in secret, which suggests to me that he did so not because he was an enthusiast but because he had a specific use for them......, like massacring a bunch of folk.

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Oh cool. Never heard of that movie. I dig the analogy though. I throw them shits out there from time to time. A favorite is "sometimes you're the dog, some times you're the hydrant.... And sometimes you're the grass".... Toss that out to the employees sometimes when shit sucks but it's out of my/our control.

 

 

There's a lot of shit in play. Firearms carry a stigma. And are valuable. If I collect silver I wouldn't tell many folk because when you have valuables in your home the less who known = the better. Guns... An AR can be up to a few grand, easily... I think from your experience and the pics from that conference you know this . You know how much a decent optic can cost. The ones I saw in the pics of the crime scene seemed like solid builds. A lot of people only talk about that shit with other 'gun guys'... Like me.. I have different circles of friends. Graffiti is a circle. Guns is a circle. Gym is a circle. Rock climbing is a circle. Those circles very very rarely overlap. Does my family know about any of them? Not really.. Other than mentioning when I'm in good physical shape. My dad likes guns so we talk guns. But other than that... Not really. My mother's side is super liberal Democrat. Thanksgiving dinner is a trip lol. If guns come up at a holiday and I throw out my support for 2a I open myself up to criticism and then youre left there assed out in a five against one situation. So a lot of firearms people just keep things hush hush.

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Yeah, I take your point, for sure. I just think if he was a shooter some one from a range he shoots at, some on from his shooting circle or something like that would have surfaced by now and made comment of how he was normal and safety conscious/weird and awkward who often complained about how casinos ar rigged...., etc.

 

Given the circumstances I'd reckon that there's a lot to suggest that dude was a nutter and won't have followed a pattern any of us would expect or recognise.

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Was listening to an interview w a doctor who said these types are very hard to identify. The example he used was Elliot Rodgers, the virgin who went on the sorority girl/frat bro killing spree in Santa Barbara, CA. Rodgers was from a very well off family and seeing a very qualified therapist, who never stated he was a danger to himself or others. These types are often very smart. This asshole in vegas seems like he planned this shit out very well. Especially after reports today that he checked into multiple hotels in vegas before the act, supposedly scouting his sniper nest. Fucking evil.

 

The time between reloads still throws me off.. So many loaded mags. So many rifles.

 

Ok- 100 rds makes for a very hot rifle, and someone delusional would have shakey hands making reloads difficult, but he had the means to just thrown that shit to the side and grab another rifle with loaded mag ready to rock..I think the official reports say he had 20 rifles in the room?? Jesus. Imagine how bad things could have been.

 

I'm not a believer in conspiracy theories. I think most of these things just boil down to outliers and jack asses. But I also think being a sceptic is good. Questioning narratives needs to happen. My faith in the American news media is not very high. My trust in our govt isn't very high either.

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Having a lot of something doesn't make you passionate about said thing.

 

Would you trust a mechanic who owns 1 car, or some rich douche with 5 sports cars when it comes to knowledge about motor vehicles.

 

Pont taken but not always the case. A guy who owns a spraypaint collection filling his entire garage would probably be more in tune than a guy who runs a graffshop but only has one brand.

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The time between reloads still throws me off.. So many loaded mags. So many rifles.

 

How do you know that the time between firing was for reloads though? I heard that on the news as well but they don't know shit as to what was happening in that room, he could have been some sick fuck jerking off between rifles for all we know. All the information we have is that there were lulls in the firing that lasted approximately a minute. What actually occurred in that room in that time is something that nobody actually knows (or has not made public).

 

Ok- 100 rds makes for a very hot rifle,

 

Yep, we had to change barrels every 300 rounds when we were ripping belts off on the gun. I must admit, I expected to find someting akin to a Mag 58 on a tripod when they took the room.

 

I'm not a believer in conspiracy theories. I think most of these things just boil down to outliers and jack asses. But I also think being a sceptic is good. Questioning narratives needs to happen. My faith in the American news media is not very high. My trust in our govt isn't very high either.

 

I think that's all pretty wise. Question everything but do so with an open mind. I've worked for an organisation that was labelled as NWO by Alex Jones and his group of idiots. Knowing the org from the inside allowed me to know how fucking deluded that claim was. Secondly, having worked with folk central to the political/strategic response to 9/11 I know that there was a 'conspiracy' to target Iran in the response (for strategic purposes), so I know that conspiracies can be real (and they are not along the lines of chemtrails, staged massacres, etc, but they look like the Suez crisis and 1965 Indonesian coup) but I also know that they often go completely tits up...., just like the Suez crisis and invasion of Iraq did!

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Don't get me wrong, I know conspiracy is real. I've been involved with conspiracy...conspiring to get someone moved from one shift to another without them knowing, conspiring to get someone fired, conspiring to expose a mid level manager as an idiot. It happens. But my faith in the govt accomplishing anything skillfully is pretty slim lol. Simple timekeeping is a daily struggle. Managing a budget is a struggle. Getting rid of shit bag employees is near impossible. Keeping a secret as simple as why someone has taken an extended leave from work is like trying to build a dam out of bubbles lol

 

Are there groups beyond that, whom can handle shit, with an unlimited budget/resources/reach, and zero questions ? Fuck yes I believe that. Does media sometimes get fed a narrative that's best for the greater good? Hell yeah I believe that too. This would require as minimal 'in the know' personnel as possible though. And full trust in all of them to never want to write a tell all book. Would a group such as this be able to put enough fear in people to never think they could get away with a tell all book? Fuck yeah.

 

But something as big as 911... That's a shit ton of people. Unlikely conspiracy. Likely an outlier assholes. Something like this though... I just don't know. Boiling about conspiracy theories is a form of masturbation with no climax. Would rather worry about how to keep the lady happy and how to stash enough cash for a cushy retirement lol.

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Yes, and just to clarify, I'm not saying 9/11 was a setup. I'm saying that there was an effort to tie it to Iraq in an effort to deal with Iran.

 

Not much of a secret but true for some folk, most namely the VP at the time. It was confirmed to me by folk in the room, who if I recall are also public about it.

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The guy who got paid to rebuild everything we bombed? Yeah fuck that guy. That whole situation with the drunken hunting accident where he shot his boy in the face(?) and nothing happened is a shame in itself. Fuck that dude.

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