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Hua Guofang

Fuck the EU

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Not really

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Context (that youtube up top is the audio file of Nuland saying "fuck the EU")

 

 

Leaked phone call embarrasses US

 

 

An apparently hacked phone conversation during which a senior US diplomat disparages the EU over the Ukraine crisis has been posted online.

 

A voice resembling that of Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland reportedly refers to the EU using a graphic swear word.

 

The US said Ms Nuland had "apologised for these reported comments".

 

The audio also reveals a frank exchange about America's strategy on how to work with Ukraine's main opposition leaders.

 

The tape appeared on YouTube after Russia had accused Washington of meddling in Ukraine.

 

Mass anti-government protests erupted in Ukraine in late November after President Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign a far-reaching association and trade agreement with the EU - under heavy pressure from Moscow.

 

Russia itself has been widely accused of intervening in Ukraine, using its economic clout to persuade Mr Yanukovych to abandon closer ties with Brussels in favour of Russia and other ex-Soviet states.

'Not a good idea'

 

The alleged conversation between Ms Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, appeared on YouTube on Thursday.

 

The 4min10sec video was entitled "Maidan's puppets" in Russian and also had a transcription of the whole conversation in Russian.

 

At one point, the female speaker mentions the UN and its possible role in trying to find a solution to the Ukraine stand-off.

 

She says: "So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and have the UN help glue it and you know..." she then uses the graphic swear word about the EU.

 

The male replies: "We've got to do something to make it stick together, because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it."

 

The two officials also discuss frankly the merits of the three main Ukrainian opposition leaders - Vitaly Klitschko, Arseniy Yatseniuk and Oleh Tyahnybok - in the conversation.

Vitaly Klitschko, 4 Feb The phone call apparently suggests Vitaly Klitschko should not be a part of government

 

The female speaker says that Mr Klitschko, the former heavyweight boxing world champion, should not be in any new government. "I don't think it's a good idea."

 

She adds: "I think Yats (Arseniy Yatseniuk) is the guy who's got the economic experience."

 

US officials refused to confirm or deny the tape's authenticity, but state department spokeswoman Jan Psaki said: "I didn't say it was inauthentic."

 

Ms Psaki said Ms Nuland had "been in contact with her EU counterparts and of course has apologised for these reported comments".

 

An EU official told the BBC: "The EU is engaged in helping the people of Ukraine through the current political crisis. We don't comment on alleged leaked telephone conversations."

 

Ms Psaki also played down the comments about Ukraine's opposition, saying: "It shouldn't be a surprise that at any points there have been discussions about recent events and offers and what is happening on the ground."

 

Ms Psaki hinted that the tape could have been leaked by Moscow, pointing out that a senior Russian official was one of the first to draw attention to the audio.

 

US state department spokeswoman Jen Psaki did not deny the authenticity of the recording

 

She said: "We think this is a new low in Russian trade-craft. This is something they've been actively promoting, posting on, tweeting about."

 

White House spokesman Jay Carney added: "I would say that since the video was first noted and tweeted out by the Russian government, I think it says something about Russia's role."

 

Earlier on Thursday, a senior aide to Russian President Vladimir Putin accused Washington of interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs.

 

Sergei Glazyev said the US was spending $20m (£12.3m; 14.8m euros) a week on Ukrainian opposition groups, supplying "rebels" with arms among other things.

 

And he suggested that Moscow could also intervene.

 

Mr Yanukovych held talks in Kiev with Ms Nuland on Thursday, at which he said he favoured dialogue and compromise with the opposition.

 

Also in the capital, thousands of Ukrainian opposition activists, some carrying shields and baseball bats, marched from their camp on Independence Square to parliament in a show of force.

 

They came close to government supporters who are camped next to parliament behind barricades manned by hundreds of police, but the march passed off peacefully.

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what? she sounds like the good girl in school who tried to be hard that one day by cursing

what a shitty diplomat

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This shit is comedy gold for politics geeks like me.

 

The whole "Fuck the EU" bit is the side show here, the fact that Russia was able to grab this phone call and then leaked the fucking thing on youtube is just sensational to me. They also leaked another one that was the German Ambo talking to the Deutsch Foreign Office but I haven't seen a translation of it yet.

 

The battle you see in Ukraine is the West versus Russia, Ukraine is massively important in terms of geography. So Russia is trying to split the EU and US on this matter with the old divide and conquer, hence leaking the "Fuck the EU" call.

 

The thing I love is that during the Cold War the Russians call this shit Kompromat - compromising material. They'd do shit like honey traps or get info they could use to blackmail/split/shame/confuse opponents

 

Now, Kompromat goes on fucking youtube with crappy photo-collages. That shit is pure gold to me, love the info age!

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, I'll stop geeking out on y'all now. Back to boobs.

 

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Walid/Hua, if you haven't already, you should read Disinformation by General Pacepa. Really everyone should read it, but I'd say it's particularly up your alley. Anyway, I support the Ukrainian people against the Yanukovich mafia. Also this:

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Yeah, I have a mountain of books I gotta hit. However, I'm just embarking on getting Bahasa Indonesia and plan to have that nailed within 18-20 months. Unfortunately can't see me making too much of a dent in my to-read-list this year.

 

In regards to the Ukraine thing, whilst I'd prefer to see a more Western oriented govt in Kiev as well, be sure to see it for what it is. It's three things, the West trying to take the most strategically important borderland from Russia, Russia trying to defend its interests (ability to defend its heartland and project power in to Europe) and Yanukovic trying to get through this whilst know that he cannot go against Moscow's wishes but still trying to retain as much autonomy from Russia as he can.

 

That's the play here and the basic drivers of those involved. The people on the streets range from those looking to shift west, right wing extremists, those who want to stay east as well as provocateurs and agents from all sides.

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Yanukovic trying to get through this whilst know that he cannot go against Moscow's wishes but still trying to retain as much autonomy from Russia as he can.

 

That's the play here and the basic drivers of those involved. The people on the streets range from those looking to shift west, right wing extremists, those who want to stay east as well as provocateurs and agents from all sides.

 

My understanding is that the essence of the protests is against Yanukovic and attempts to push for a more authoritarian government while simultaneously seeking to align the Ukraine's economy w/ that of Russia, for his own personal gain, as opposed to seeking advantageous investment from EU countries. Surely in situations like this a number of views will be represented in the streets, but I think a majority of Ukranians have had enough of Yanukovic's rampant corruption. His recent dealings w/ Russia seem to only have sparked an otherwise full powder keg of animosity. Moreover, I think Yanukovic only wants autonomy from Russia insofar as it means more power for him, his regime has consistently been accused of promoting nepotism (which looks pretty obvious if you ask me) and even enacted a law closing the door on transparency dealing w/ government contracts amidst these accusations. That said, I also believe nearly all information coming out of that part of the world is censored and streamlined so I wouldn't be surprised if I was completely incorrect in actuality.

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Yes, I'm sure that people don't want his corruption and nepotism but that's only a small part of the picture and a snapshot of this moment. It all sits in a much larger context with the Orange Revolution being a good inflection point to look at.

 

Yanukovic ran against Yushchenko in 2004 the result of that election started the O. Revolution. It's essentially East V. West. The East of Ukraine speaks Russian and largely supports moving closer to the EU - they support Yan and basically are not taking part in the anti-Yan riots right now. The Western half of Ukraine all speak local Ukrainian and support a move closer to the EU - they are largely protesting against Yan now. It's the same split back in 2005 that saw Tymoshenko imprisoned, gas exports from Russia cut off and the square in Kiev occupied with the Orange crowd. This conflict never ended.

 

Russia needs Ukraine because it has no real natural barriers such as big mountain ranges, deserts, seas, etc. to protect its heartland (agriculture, energy, industry, population) from invasion by Western Europe. So they have to push out and create buffer states to forward deploy defences, that's what the Soviet Union and the Warsaw pact countries did for Russia during the Cold War and what the Customs Union is doing for them now. Russia projects power in to Europe with energy exports, which Europe largely relies on (now Nord Stream and soon to be South Stream). Russia needs Ukraine for defence and power projection against its nearest competitor.

 

Europe and the West need to neuter Russia because if it controls Eurasia from Vladivostok to France it's likely to become more powerful than the US. Hence why the US had the Marshall Plan and the whole Cold War thing. The West wants to take Ukraine but would settle for Belarus in a pinch. For reference look at the Baltic states and how they were taken from the Russian sphere of influence and bought in to Nato, look at what Russia does to try and regain influence (energy leverage, Iskanders in Kaliningrad, organisation of political parties to promote Russian language, large scale cyber attacks, etc.). So the West supports the western regions of Ukraine to gain dominance so they can build trade and security ties to the EU.

 

Check out Russia's Customs Union and see how they are essentially trying to build USSR II. No communism but ideology is irrelevant in the long term. Russia just needs to control border lands to protect its heartland. The West needs to make Russia vulnerable to bring it to heel.

 

Yanukovic is caught in the middle. It's easier for Russia to win this game because it has little holding it back. It's closer to Ukraine and can project greater hard power than anyone else. It doesn't have to care about human rights so it can support Yan whilst Tymo is still in prison. The EU has to make demands such as democratisation, human rights, etc. that Yan doesn't want. Essentially he'd like to balance between the two and extract concessions from both of them. But the zero sum nature of this game makes it either or and he knows that Russia will fight to the death for Ukraine because Russia is totally fucked without it. The EU can survive without Ukraine, so it's not willing to give up too much here where Russia is willing to pull out at all stops. Yan has to try and get what he can from the EU but essentially side with Russia, which he did.

 

Of course he wants more power for himself, all govt do, that's what politics is - holding the power to make the decisions. He doesn't want to become a total Russian stooge because he loses all his power. So he'll eventually give in to Russia, which he did but will first hold out for as long as he can to get as many concessions as possible, which he did by the way of loans and discounts on gas imports.

 

 

The way to look at this is the Orange Revolution. The people were on the streets protesting against a Yan govt before it ever even came to power. Yan was Kuchma's replacement, Kuchma was Russian leaning. So the anger at Yan's corruption may be an element driving people to the streets but remember that people in 2005 were protesting against him before he even had a chance to be corrupt. That's because this is a struggle between east and west that carries over centuries based on geopolitics.

 

 

 

 

TL-DR - it's east versus west like in the Cold War, Yan's corruption is just a small element of it.

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Pretty much.

 

Pssh, take your obsession w/ me elsewhere.

 

Thanks Hua, I found that very informative. My opinion is mostly informed from talking w/ various acquaintances that play in Ukranian bands, however I'm pretty sure I'm getting a heavily biased view. Interestingly enough though they insist that whilst they are against Yan they are staunchly pro-Russian.

 

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the economic future of Russia? Honestly I'm not as informed on Putin's economic philosophy as I'd like to be, I usually hear the term state capitalism thrown around when discussing this subject. However I can't help but feel that Russia actively discourages competition unless it benefits an oligarch.

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No, it's just no one on here with a brain wants to argue with a child.

 

You're a fucking retard and relentless about arguing uneducated points.

 

That's why no one wants to play ball with you. You're not intellectually intimidating in the least, you're just not worth the time and effort.

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Bumping this thread in case anyone is interested.

 

Up the page you can see the discussion regarding how the protest in Kiev were a Russia V. West thing more so than about Yanukovic's corruption.

 

In Crimea you can now see the regional competition bubbling to the surface of things in Ukraine. Can't recall if it was mentioned above but Russia has it's only warm water/deep water port in Sevastopol in Crimea, leased from Ukraine. If Russia looses that, to deploy vessels in to the Mediterranean it must sail all the way from the Baltic, which also freezes in Winter.

 

The fact that ousting Yanu and installing a new govt hasn't settled things in Ukraine indicates that this is not a domestic issue. What we saw before was a domestic issue being used to the advantage of external actors.

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I find it funny (in a horrible sort of way) that Russia sent troops in there without any signs saying they were Russian, to take over aorts and buildings.

 

Russians have always been thug like that.

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Keep your opponent off balance, instill doubt and retain wriggle room for yourself.

 

Were they Russian troops or were they Berkut? For the operationalist it makes little difference as the consequences are the same. But for the policy maker uncertainty is torture as mistakes are harshly punished in public office.

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I would think that there are numerous violations of the Geneva convention going on right now.

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