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theprotester

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Well I'm basing my idea on two things... A nationwide poll taken in Australia, and firsthand experience.

 

Poll I read said Australia had like 16% saying they hated Americans, about 17% saying they liked Americans, and the rest (over 60%) saying they were neutral/indifferent. Also I have worked in Australia on more than one occasion a few years ago, and never remember getting any flack or dislike. Then again maybe some just kept their feelings to themselves. I also have some friends from Brisbane and they've never said they dislike America or suggested this was the general sentiment there... in fact, the opposite.

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I'd say they were being nice to you, because when it boils down to the essence, there really isn't much reason apart from ignorance to hate a whole country. But the simple fact is, even young kids know of Americans as 'seppos' or 'yanks', which is slang for septic tank, the inference being that all Americans are full of shit.

 

You always see videos on the internet about 'American ignorance' when it comes to geography, etc, but I guarantee if you picked your suburbs right, 7/10 people probably couldn't tell you if NYC was east coast or west... It flared up a bit more at the start of the Iraq war, and just recently with Obama telling us the marines are moving in, whether we like it or not.

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I heard about those US marines being stationed there. I believe in the Darwin area... Seems pointless. But it's only about 1,000 marines or so, based in an Australian base (not a new US one), so I don't see how it would affect the average Australian's life in any way.

 

This was also a mutual agreement between both governments -- it's not like Obama said "we're putting troops here whether you like it or not" -- so instead of just blaming America I would think people would also recognize that their own representatives in Parliament approved of it.

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Not to sound argumentative, but the marine deployment was authorised four years before Australia was even told about it, and not it wasn't a mutual agreement, it was a "guess what we're about to do, you're going to love it!".

 

Also, you might be surprised how having fighter jets and offensive tactical training manoeuvres might lessen your life quality if you happen to live anywhere near the base. Apparently the chance of a sexual assault among American forces is 1 in 20.

 

Chicks do love it when a USS Navy boat arrives though, that's true for days.

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1 Aussie broad here

 

I'm surprised to hear you guys say that. That's kind of a bummer. I've met, hung out w, partied w a shit ton of Aussies (mostly while I'm out of the states) and I didnt get any sir of feeling like they were being phoney or disliked me

 

Maybe Theo and I got a pass when folks found out we are from California? I found that was kind of the case with the Dutch....

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Theo, there are very good and clear reasons to base Marines in Australia.

 

First, study your WW2 history and see how important Australia was to the US war effort (hint: US Western Pacific HQ was in Australia and the Japs took islands all the way south to Solomons, meaning Australia had to be a command, basing and resup base in order to push the Japs back north). Now look at Chinese efforts to extend south in the South China Sea and in the Western Pacific, etc.

 

Second, it shows resolve in the ANZUS Treaty and also American commitment to the region. This allows other nations such as Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Singapore, Burma, Indonesia, etc. to have faith that the US will actively seek to shape the regional emergence of China.

 

The marines themselves don't mean a huge amount, it's what the basing deal indicates. Plus it's a lead in to greater cooperation in the future in terms of naval and air asset rotation as well as, should push come to shove, full operational cooperation and interoperability.

 

The locals who own bars, clubs, shops, brothels, etc. are very happy with the shared facilities agreement. And truth be known, a clear majority of people support the alliance and are not too upset with having US assets based here. The Iraq war did little for US reputation in Australia but the "China threat" and Obama have done a lot to help us forget all of that.

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Not to sound argumentative, but the marine deployment was authorised four years before Australia was even told about it, and not it wasn't a mutual agreement, it was a "guess what we're about to do, you're going to love it!".

 

Also, you might be surprised how having fighter jets and offensive tactical training manoeuvres might lessen your life quality if you happen to live anywhere near the base.

 

There's no way the US could tell Aust. what to do like that, just doesn't work that way. If the party in power thought it could hurt their chances in the next election it simply would not occur. The US cannot force stuff like that on us, or most other countries for that matter (great example is Turkey refusing US operations in Iraq war II, 2003. India is another good example, they don't even like the term interoperability as it may infer some kind of alliance structure, The US was kicked out of Subic Bay at the end of the Cold War and it's not easy to even have them operating in Mindanao these days...., etc.).

 

It's difficult living near any airport and it's not like the ADF don't already have their own jets and exercises. If you don't like the noise, don't live near a base! Personally, I fucking love it.

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Maybe Theo and I got a pass when folks found out we are from California? I found that was kind of the case with the Dutch....

 

Well I consider myself to be pretty chill & laid back... Minding my business or talking to people with respect... especially when in foreign lands... made friends there as well... So I figure someone would have to be a pretty big asshole to just hate me simply for being born in a certain area.

 

Speaking of Dutch, I think the only possible anti-American incident I encountered was in Amsterdam. But I don't think the dude was Dutch, he was Arab or something. And this was during the height of the Iraq War, just a few years after it started... I was in one of those coffee shops talking to someone, and the minute I spoke he glared at me with disgust for a while. Possibly recognized the accent. I had never seen this guy ever before so I'm not sure what his issue was... but it's all speculation. I eventually stared back at him and then he finally looked away.

 

The dude was rolling a blunt while he was looking pissed, so he couldn't have been a devout Muslim. Then again a lot of those Muslims are hypocrites; drinking, smoking weed, watching porn, etc.

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Signed off in the US as the preferred strategy doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion though. There would have been plan B decided on as well.

 

Intentions for grand strategies are always planned years in advance but just because that's the agreed intention of the planners doesn't mean that's exactly how it happens. The plan would have been decided on over a long period of time and would have been discussed with partners when the time was right (politically, tactically, strategically, economically, logistically, etc.). The US would have negotiated with Australia, not told as the US doesn't have the power to force Australia to do anything.

 

The US would have been well aware that Aust. would not deny them this as we NEED the US for protection and we do well under their system. We want China to be balanced by a US commitment to the region, we want US FDI, we want US arms deals, etc. So Canberra would have tweaked the deal to some degree and then very happily agreed to it, as Washington would have well expected us to. There would not have been any "telling". At risk of sounding arrogant/condescending, which is not what I mean to do, relations among partners simply don't work that way. The partnership is of mutual benefit and that means the best way forward is negotiated, leveraged and usually pretty easily identified.

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Not to sound argumentative, but the marine deployment was authorised four years before Australia was even told about it, and not it wasn't a mutual agreement, it was a "guess what we're about to do, you're going to love it!".

 

Also, you might be surprised how having fighter jets and offensive tactical training manoeuvres might lessen your life quality if you happen to live anywhere near the base. Apparently the chance of a sexual assault among American forces is 1 in 20.

 

Chicks do love it when a USS Navy boat arrives though, that's true for days.

 

 

Didn't hear about that, and haven't read it to really have an opinion. If true, I agree US legislators should have alerted the country they were planning this with. Still, if that's the case it is in Australia's full power to reject the proposal. Apparently the majority of politicians in Canberra liked the idea.

 

As far as the fighter jets go... having been to Darwin, I know it's a heavily military garrisoned area... There's several bases there. The town essentially exists as a result of the bases. So I'm not sure why someone would move to a military town like Darwin and act shocked there are military exercises in the area. I'm sure sexual assaults are a reality among most militaries globally. Lots of horny, aggressive young men.

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Signed off in the US as the preferred strategy doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion though. There would have been plan B decided on as well.

 

 

Agreed, and I feel it is a positive presence. My main emotional objection is probably shared by a decent amount of Australians, in the feeling that we could be essentially enlisted into a war we didn't start, etc, etc, could happen again. I know this is a small minded view, but I think it would be fair to say it's a view shared.

 

@Theo: Pretty much bang on, (though I'd call Darwin a tourist town, not sure what a garrison town is) it's a weak argument, but you're looking at going from a few hundred troops with what were essentially elastic band powered planes to now having quite the fleet of FA/18's - so while people have knowingly lived near military bases in Darwin, the increased activity is undeniable. I get about a fifty fifty mix of approval when I ask NT people (they are all here in the south at the moment, because it is wet season up there) about the plans/changes.

 

And you're also right, you'd have to be a complete dick to hate someone just because of where they are from without any other information. That's why I pick your brains about real American ways of thinking, rather than what we see on TV/movies. I'm quite lucky to have the luxury of directly asking people on here, rather than being told what to think!

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Agreed, and I feel it is a positive presence. My main emotional objection is probably shared by a decent amount of Australians, in the feeling that we could be essentially enlisted into a war we didn't start, etc, etc, could happen again. I know this is a small minded view, but I think it would be fair to say it's a view shared.

 

 

Yeah, the Iraq war hangover is a pretty strong one and not entirely misguided in my opinion either. Again, GWB did a lot to damage US interests with the Iraq war IMO. But, we'll see how the current talks with Iran go, maybe I'm not looking at the big picture enough, but I'm still relatively confident it was a fuck up, tactically and strategically.

 

The Vietnam war is a different story, though. Most Aussies think we only went in to support the US. That's inaccurate as Australia was pushing very hard for the US to act in Vn. before LBJ went all the way. Australia felt threatened by the southern advance of Soviet style communism, and rightly so. Only the US had the power to stop that advance and signal its resolve to fight the Soviets on the global stage. There's a pretty strong argument to be made that whilst the battle was lost in Vn. the Pacific campaign was won due to the Vn. war (which also precipitated Nixon's visit to China in '72, which then allowed China and the US to gang up on the Soviets), which in turn assisted in the overall defeat of global communism. Vietnam was not a war that Australia became dragged in to, in the least.

 

In terms of China, the real challenge won't come from the US as they do not want a war with China. It will come from Japan dragging the US and us in to a war. Taiwan is still there and still a challenge too, as well is the South China Sea. However China needs to break out of the first island chain blockade on its eastern coast before it tries to wrest the South China Sea, which essentially means wresting East Asia from the US.

 

In the big picture it's difficult to see any conflict with China not involving Australia in some way as the big picture is China becoming the East Asian hegemon and that's not something we really want to see and the US will do everything to stop it. No one wants war but as things stand now, it's difficult to see us all avoiding it in the long-run.

 

The tragedy of great power politics.

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