Occupy Wall Street

[Soup]

Also, the way i see it, the basic tenants of occupy wall street are in its voting process. Everything else is meh. Moving small accounts to small banks is a good idea. If a small bank can support you or your small business with the credit you need, fuck it, they usually give the lowest APR's and the most benefits.

 

Just pray they don't go out of business like all those small banks did in the housing crisis, because they will take your accounts with them, UNLESS a bigger bank buys them out with all their assets and saves you. Don't let the irony kill you.

 

But I really hope they don't get co-opted. I really hope they don't let celebrities or politicians make public donations to their cause and show visible support. Occupy Wallstreet shouldn't feed into aristocracy when what they want is for everybody just to sit down and be valued as one vote, just like everyone else. That's the kind of democracy that benefits the community, brings people together to speak their minds about what's affecting them, but listen to everybody else over their own selfish needs. That also goes against the entire political process as it currently stands in every democracy in the world, where people vote for celebrities to represent them.

[theprotester]

Don't get the whole world confused with America.

[Soup]

I didn't. There is no electoral democracy in the world that allows its people to decide on bills and things directly. There's always a representative. Imagine if there were no leaders, no representatives, no lobbyists, no popularity contest, no class presidents, no political parties, no role models, no mascots, no ad campaigns, nothing. Imagine if the democratic process was a lot like my job. Everyone gets in front of the group with a powerpoint presentation with piecharts, pictures, and data illustrating their proposal, and after listening to everyone, as a group, in person they decide on how proceed.

 

How amazing would that be? It may seem boring, or a bit like jury duty, but that's how shit gets done.

 

Every bill would be passed by a show of hands and would require a 90% vote to pass. People can agree, disagree, or block the whole bill by stating they would leave the group if the bill goes through. THe bill would be amended so that person doesn't have to leave.

 

Your boss' salary would be voted on by every employee at the company. Your salary would be voted on in the exact same way. Same with civil rights, crimes, educational funding, what classes are taught at what level, whose children would get to go to preschool, who gets to have children. The growth of a city would be voted on by the people who live there. Imagine if your whole city or country was forced together every night at 7:00 to listen to each other. Your ex, your parents, your teachers, your boss, your friends. Imagine the whole country being the arbiter to your personal life, your parents life, your friend's life. You would be accountable for everything you do at all times, and so would everybody else. I can't even imagine what that would be like in a place like Martinez where I hear from children about mommy being in prision for stabbing daddy. What if those two people were forced to participate for years in this democracy and community growth? How would that have changed their personal identities? Would that mother still have killed her husband and ruined that child's life forever? This world has too many bad role models.

 

I think the process would force people to set aside their own personal wants and desires, become a bit more realistic as they see how their needs stack up with the needs of every other person within the community. Then everybody would be helping each other in hopes of bringing a community up to the level where you can get what you want. I think that's what the world needs. Everybody wants to be successful, but it doesn't have the same feeling of gratification if your friends can't afford the same things. That's why the richest countries in the world are also the biggest charity givers, even tho we all know support and charity are not the same thing.

[Fist 666]

 

this captures pretty well how i feel about cops. i'm a combat vet, and i understand what it means to itch for shit to 'go off' and to 'get some.' but these guys are itching for it to get real with civilians, not criminals. frustrating.

[OhhJ]

I've nevere really felt patriotic until I went down to occupychi. Its great to see so many people united from being so fed up with the government. I'm not going to act like I know anything about politics but this thread has inspired me to actually take interest in what's going on around me. There really needs to be people like you guys speaking at these protests. I seen a lot of clueless people.

 

Too bad I'm leaving to argentina in a week. Don't let this shit go to waste while I'm gone.

[Soup]

This is basically Habermas' vision for emboldened democracy. It has its virtues. There are two major problems here. The first is that you have a classic 'tyranny of the majority' issue where the democratic vote can be used coercively against any minority group. The second is a corollary of the first, in that, as per your suggestion, the notion of private property is subject to a democratic vote. Where is the incentive to accumulate wealth if a majority can vote your bank account away? What would constrain this from happening if private property is not accepted as immutable?

 

Chuck in a constitution that enshrines individual liberty and remove the ability to coerce through legislation and you have a fairly workable model of governance.

 

I'm not worried about mob rule. Things aren't decided by just a 51% vote. They're decided by a 90% vote. Voting no means that you agree to allow everyone to vote and if 90% vote yes, you agree it's for the best. You can also block a bill if the bill disenfranchises a group of people. The bill is then amended to include everyone.

 

For the most part I'm not worried about your bank account being taken away from you because it sets a precedence that may lead to my bank account being taken away and everyone else's as well. It wouldn't be in anyone's personal interest to take anyone else's bank account away. And why would you? Everyone's salary was decided on by everyone else. For example, you saw how hard your boss was working and voted on a proper salary. Why would you now want to take his bank account away?

[shai]

I got my camera back, so I should have some photos up later today.

 

Things were a lot better Sunday, I actually had fun for the first time all week. I'm probably going to roll with that until the cops come and I HAVE to go back down there.

 

 

 

this captures pretty well how i feel about cops. i'm a combat vet, and i understand what it means to itch for shit to 'go off' and to 'get some.' but these guys are itching for it to get real with civilians, not criminals. frustrating.

 

I saw this too. You can almost see the cops deflate while that guy's going off...awesome.

[Soup]

All those cops look straight out of the academy too. Breaking in the rookies with fake crowd control. Nice.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Some of them look like rookies, but there are Lt's there and probably guys that have been on the force for at least a few years.

 

He's on point though, no doubt about it. No honor at all.

[Soup]

Its funny that New York antagonizes the protestors, thinking it will eventually go away, and LA's government just says "Yup, we agree with you." Then legalizes the space for occupation and agrees to cut ties with any bank involved in any financial wrongdoing.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-18/los-angeles-wooed-by-occupy-protest-faces-higher-debt-cost.html

 

Most likely because California, specifically southern california, was hit the hardest by the housing crisis, and now banks are illegally foreclosing on hundreds of peoples mortgages in that area. California Attourney General also backed out of negotiations between the banks and Attourneys General of all the other states regarding a settlement on the foreclosures, stating the settlement wasn't enough to cover the losses california homeowners have taken.

[Soup]

Aaand then i read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/18/the-dark-knight-rises-at-occupy-wall-street_n_1018362.html

 

occupy wallstreet co-opted by Batman. lololol

[Soup]

This is basically Habermas' vision for emboldened democracy. It has its virtues. There are two major problems here. The first is that you have a classic 'tyranny of the majority' issue where the democratic vote can be used coercively against any minority group. The second is a corollary of the first, in that, as per your suggestion, the notion of private property is subject to a democratic vote. Where is the incentive to accumulate wealth if a majority can vote your bank account away? What would constrain this from happening if private property is not accepted as immutable?

 

Chuck in a constitution that enshrines individual liberty and remove the ability to coerce through legislation and you have a fairly workable model of governance.

 

One more thing i forgot to add: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics

Thats more in line with what occupy wall street is asking for.

[theprotester]

Left field, but definitely relevant to OWS.

 

[Soup]

"I got off of drugs. I'm not mentally ill."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3aqv7TYSM0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixLcprsk_kM&feature=related

[theprotester]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3aqv7TYSM0&feature=player_embedded

[KM4RT]

Participatory economics in my opinion discounts the fundamental issue of human nature and individuals.

Democratic planning can only really work if everyone buys in.

It is not a bad model as such, but it does not scale to millions of people and the complex world we live in.

This thread shows the diversity of individual opinions and values. Multiply that by 10000000.

 

Free market ftw.

[Soup]

@TheProtestor When a guy gets beat up at a baseball game, is that relevant to baseball? Just saying.

[theprotester]

This thread has as much direction as the OWS protest itself, so I think posting something that is directly referencing the OWS in an advertising campaign is definitely fair game for posting.

[Soup]

Participatory economics in my opinion discounts the fundamental issue of human nature and individuals.

Democratic planning can only really work if everyone buys in.

It is not a bad model as such, but it does not scale to millions of people and the complex world we live in.

This thread shows the diversity of individual opinions and values. Multiply that by 10000000.

 

Free market ftw.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. You can say the exact same thing about capitalism. There is every incentive to participate in participatory economics, because if you don't participate in the democracy, chances are you're not going to like the outcome. As it stands in capitalism you're not going to like the outcome no matter what.

 

Our current economic system has been designed to look at the planet as a sandwich and us as bacteria who can only survive if we eat the entire sandwich. That's the endgame of Keynesian economics. It says it's okay if we consume every natural resource on this planet and die, because we're all going to die anyway.

[theprotester]

What I got from KMART's post, is that everyone on this Occupy line seems to want something different.

[FREIGHTYONE]

I was at a coffee shop a block away from my State capitol/Occupy protest today and bumped into what seemed like a mid-high level CEO for a large bank doing meet and greets up and down the street with small business owners. Coincidental or poor timing? She got trolled pretty good by a street dude in the shop who was asking about various financial options and such, and when she asked what his occupation was, he replied "Oh, I'm what you would call a transient." She left shortly thereafter.

[goon2agoblin]

All those cops look straight out of the academy too. Breaking in the rookies with fake crowd control. Nice.

 

:lol: this.

[Soup]

Yeah i don't think that was a CEO.

[theprotester]

bumped into what seemed like a mid-high level CEO for a large bank doing meet and greets up and down the street

 

OK mate.

[El Mamerro]

Here’s a much more debatable set of preliminary demands:

 

 

WHEREAS THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES

 

CONSTITUTION PROVIDES:

 

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of

 

religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the

 

freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people

 

peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a

 

redress of grievances.

 

 

BE IT RESOLVED THAT:

 

WE, THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE of the UNITED

 

STATES OF AMERICA, in order to form a more perfect Union, by,

 

for and of the PEOPLE, shall elect and convene a NATIONAL

 

GENERAL ASSEMBLY beginning on July 4, 2012 in the City Of

 

Philadelphia.

 

 

I. Election of Delegates:

 

The People, consisting of all United States citizens who have

 

reached the age of 18, regardless of party affiliation and voter

 

registration status, shall elect Two Delegates, one male and one

 

female, by direct vote, from each of the existing 435 Congressional

 

Districts to represent the People at the NATIONAL GENERAL

 

ASSEMBLY in Philadelphia. Said Assembly shall convene on July 4,

 

2012 in the city of Philadelphia.

 

 

The office of Delegate shall be open to all United States citizens

 

who have reached the age of 18. Election Committees, elected by

 

local General Assemblies from all over the United States, shall

 

coordinate with the 99 Percent Declaration Working Group (http:/

 

/groups.yahoo.com/group/the99declaration/) to organize,

 

coordinate and fund this national election by direct democratic

 

voting. The Election Committees shall operate similarly to the

 

original Committees of Correspondence during the first American

 

Revolution.

 

 

II. Meeting of the National General Assembly and Deliberation:

 

At the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, the 870 Delegates shall

 

set forth, consider and vote upon a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to

 

be submitted to all members of Congress, The Supreme Court and

 

President and each of the political candidates running in the

 

nationwide Congressional and Presidential election in November

 

2012. The Delegates of the National General Assembly shall vote

 

upon and implement their own agenda, propagate their own rules

 

and elect or appoint committee members as the Delegates see fit

 

to accomplish their goal of presenting a PETITION OF

 

GRIEVANCES from the 99% of Americans before the 2012

 

elections.

 

 

III. Proposed Petition for the Redress of Grievances:

 

The PETITION OF GRIEVANCES shall be non-partisan and address

 

the critical issues now confronting the People of the United States.

 

The Delegates shall deliberate and vote upon proposals for the

 

PETITION OF GRIEVANCES in consultation with the 99% similarly

 

to the first two Continental Congresses.

 

 

Below is a suggested list of grievances respectfully submitted by

 

the OWS Working Group on the 99% Declaration. The final

 

version of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES voted upon by the

 

Delegates of the National General Assembly MAY or MAY NOT

 

include the following suggested issues:

 

 

1. Implementing an immediate ban on all private contributions of

 

money and gifts, to all politicians in federal office, from

 

Individuals, Corporations, Political Action Committees, Super

 

Political Action Committees, Lobbyists, Unions and all other

 

private sources of money to be replaced by the fair and equal

 

public financing of all federal political campaigns. We

 

categorically REJECT the concept that money is equal to free

 

speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest would

 

have a voice. These actions must be taken because it has become

 

clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate

 

themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of

 

corporations, unions and the very wealthy who spend vast sums

 

of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’

 

decisions and ensure their reelection year after year.

 

 

2. The immediate reversal, even if it requires a Constitutional

 

Amendment, of the outrageous and anti-democratic holding in the

 

"Citizens United" case by the Supreme Court, which equates the

 

payment of money by corporations, wealthy individuals and

 

unions to politicians with free speech. We, the People, demand

 

that institutional bribery and corruption not be deemed

 

protected speech.

 

 

3. Prohibiting all federal public officials and their immediate

 

family members, whether elected or appointed, from EVER being

 

employed by any corporation they regulate while in office and/or

 

holding any stock or shares in any corporation they regulate while

 

in office until a full 5 years after their term is completed.

 

 

4. A complete lifetime ban on accepting all gifts, services, money,

 

directly or indirectly, to any elected or appointed federal officials

 

or their immediate family members, from any person,

 

corporation, union or other entity that the public official was

 

charged to regulate while in office.

 

 

5. A complete reformation of the United States Tax Code to

 

require ALL citizens to pay a fair share of a progressive,

 

graduated income tax by eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks,

 

exemptions and deductions, subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and

 

ending all other methods of evading taxes. The current system of

 

taxation favors the wealthiest Americans, many of whom, pay

 

fewer taxes to the United States Treasury than citizens who earn

 

much less and pay a much higher percentage of income in taxes to

 

the United States Treasury. We, like Warren Buffet, find this

 

income tax disparity to be fundamentally unjust.

 

 

6. Medicare for all American citizens or other single-payer

 

healthcare system, adjusted by a means test (i.e. citizens who can

 

afford it may opt-out and pay their own health insurance or opt-in

 

and pay a means tested premium). The Medicaid program,

 

fraught with corruption and fraud, will be eliminated except for

 

the purpose of providing emergency room care to indigent non-

 

citizens who will not be covered by the single-payer program.

 

 

7. New comprehensive regulations to give the Environmental

 

Protection Agency expanded powers to shut down corporations,

 

businesses or any entities that intentionally or recklessly damage

 

the environment and/or criminally prosecute individuals who

 

intentionally damage the environment. We also demand the

 

immediate adoption of the most recent international protocols,

 

including the "Washington Declaration" to cap carbon emissions

 

and implement new and existing programs to transition away

 

from fossil fuels to reusable or carbon neutral sources of power.

 

 

8. Adoption of an immediate plan to reduce the national debt to a

 

sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020. Reduction of the national

 

debt to be achieved by BOTH a cut in spending to corporations

 

engaged in perpetual war for profit, the "healthcare" industry, the

 

pharmaceutical industry and all other sectors that use the federal

 

budget as their income stream AND a truly progressive income

 

tax code that does not allow the wealthy and corporations to

 

evade taxes through excessive deductions, subsidies and

 

loopholes. We agree that spending cuts are necessary but those

 

cuts must be made to facilitate what is best for the People of the

 

United States of America, not multinational and domestic

 

corporations.

 

 

9. Passage of a comprehensive job and job-training act like the

 

American Jobs Act to employ our citizens in jobs that are

 

available with specialized training and by putting People to work

 

now by repairing America's crumbling infrastructure. We also

 

recommend the establishment of an online international job

 

exchange to match employers with skilled workers or employers

 

willing to train workers in 21st century skills.

 

 

10. Student loan debt relief. Our young People and students are

 

more than $830 billion in debt from education loans alone.

 

Payment and interest on these debts should be deferred for

 

periods of unemployment and the principal on these loans

 

reduced using a corporate tax surcharge.

 

 

11. Immediate passage of the Dream Act and comprehensive

 

immigration and border security reform including offering visas,

 

lawful permanent resident status and citizenship to the world’s

 

brightest People to stay and work in our industries and schools

 

after they obtain their education and training in the United States.

 

 

 

12. Recalling all military personnel at all non-essential bases and

 

refocusing national defense goals to address threats posed by the

 

geopolitics of the 21st century, including terrorism and limiting

 

the large scale deployment of military forces to instances where

 

Congressional approval has been granted to counter the Military

 

Industrial Complex's goal of perpetual war for profit.

 

 

13. Mandating new educational goals to train the American public

 

to perform jobs in a 21st Century economy, particularly in the

 

areas of technology and green energy, taking into consideration

 

the redundancy caused by technology and the inexpensive cost of

 

labor in China, India and other countries and paying our teachers

 

a salary that is competitive with the private sector. Paying our

 

teachers a competitive salary commensurate with the salaries of

 

People in the private sector with similar skills.

 

 

14. Subject to the elimination of corporate tax loopholes and

 

exploited exemptions and deductions stated above, offering tax

 

incentives to businesses to remain in the United States and hire its

 

citizens rather than outsource jobs and reconstruct the

 

manufacturing capacity of the United States. In conjunction with

 

a new jobs act, reinstitution of the Works Progress

 

Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps and a similar

 

emergency governmental agency tasked with creating new public

 

works projects to provide jobs to the 46 million People living in

 

poverty, the 9.1% unemployed and 10% underemployed.

 

 

15. Implementing of immediate legislation to encourage China and

 

our other trading partners to end currency manipulation and

 

reduce the trade deficit.

 

 

16. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act and

 

increased regulation of Wall Street and the financial industry by

 

the SEC, FINRA and the other financial regulators, and the

 

commencement of a Justice Department criminal investigations

 

into the Securities and Banking industries practices that led to the

 

collapse of markets, $700 billion bail-out, and financial firm

 

failures in 2007-2008.

 

 

17. Adoption of a plan similar to President Clinton’s proposal to

 

end the mortgage crisis and instead of the Federal Reserve

 

continuing to lower interest rates for loans to banks who are

 

refusing to loan to small businesses and consumers, the Federal

 

Reserve shall buy all underwater or foreclosed mortgages and

 

refinance these debts at 1% or less to be managed by the newly

 

established Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (and

 

foreclosure task force described below) because 1% or less is the

 

interest rate the Federal Reserve loans to the banks directly who

 

hoard the cash rather than loan it to the People and small

 

businesses.

 

 

18. An immediate one year freeze on all foreclosures to be

 

reviewed by an independent foreclosure task force appointed by

 

Congress and the Executive Branch to (in conjunction with

 

the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau ) determine, on a case

 

by case basis, whether foreclosure proceedings should continue

 

based on the circumstances of each homeowner and propriety of

 

the financial institution's conduct.

 

 

19. Subject to the above ban on all private money and gifts in

 

politics, to enact additional campaign finance reform requiring

 

free air time and public campaign finances to all candidates who

 

obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to participate in

 

the primaries and/or electoral process, to shorten the campaign

 

season and to allow voting on weekends and holidays.

 

 

20. An immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and

 

Afghanistan and a substantial increase in the amount of funding

 

needed for veteran job placement and the treatment of the

 

physical and emotional injuries sustained by veterans in these

 

wars. Our veterans are committing suicide at an unprecedented

 

rate and we must help now.

 

 

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that IF the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES

 

approved by the 870 Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL

 

ASSEMBLY in consultation with the PEOPLE, is not acted upon by

 

Congress, the President, and Supreme Court, to the satisfaction of

 

the Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, said

 

Delegates shall organize a THIRD, COMPLETELY NON-PARTISAN,

 

INDEPENDENT POLITICAL PARTY to run candidates for every

 

available Congressional seat in the mid-term election of 2014 and

 

again in 2016 until all vestiges of the existing corrupt

 

corporatocracy have been removed by the ballot box.

 

 

 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

 

Have at it.