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I don't believe I've ever said anything to the contrary.

 

 

I haven't read through the thread and that really wasn't directed at you. I was just spouting off some shit. It seems like we should be more pissed off about this than we are. Instead I keep seeing liberals defend the actions of the president when they are the same liberals who were pissed by Bush and his illegal war.

 

I dunno, man. This country is going to shit.

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Fuck "liberals" or "conservatives". Partisan politics will be the downfall.

 

Dude is did something he doesn't have the power to do, he should be called on it by all people in office, not by a select group, or people on his or opposite his side.

 

Making it anything else gives off some sort of racial undertone or some other stigma that just creates more diversion from the problem.

 

For example, anything the Tea Party brings up or has issue with, is perceived as racist. Which I find hilarious. Not because some of those things are racist, it's just that each side looks with large eyes to the people opposite them, while they blindly go about their own interests.

 

Repeat all of this over and over again. Things need to get fixed, and they don't for all of the above reasons, and more.

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Fuck "liberals" or "conservatives". Partisan politics will be the downfall.

 

Dude is did something he doesn't have the power to do, he should be called on it by all people in office, not by a select group, or people on his or opposite his side.

 

Making it anything else gives off some sort of racial undertone or some other stigma that just creates more diversion from the problem.

 

For example, anything the Tea Party brings up or has issue with, is perceived as racist. Which I find hilarious. Not because some of those things are racist, it's just that each side looks with large eyes to the people opposite them, while they blindly go about their own interests.

 

Repeat all of this over and over again. Things need to get fixed, and they don't for all of the above reasons, and more.

 

 

You're right, it shouldn't be about left or right. Both sides should be faulted for the apologists and the people willing to take it in the ass from another bumblefuck president.

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Does it matter if they are few and far between? We're supplying them with weapons...again.

 

The US is supplying them with weapons, huh? Show me where you get that info from, please. Not saying you are but anyone that is surprised that CIA/SF are on the ground in Libya are living in fantasy land. Even before PGMs that require illumination this would have been happening, that's what intelligence does, gets intelligence. One has to be on drugs if one does not immediately assume that assets have long been on the ground.

 

He doesn't have the power to authorize these actions in the first place. Same song, different dancer.

 

How many times does this have to happen before you realise that the constitution and reality have little to do with each other?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Listens for the sound of heads exploding

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The CIA also has been building a network of informants to support U.S. and allied military operations and to help the U.S. assess the rebels. The U.S. is trying to determine what support they need, in terms of intelligence, communications gear and possibly lethal arms, officials say.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576233252265978400.html

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He doesn't have the power to authorize these actions in the first place.

 

This is a NATO action. We could refuse to send air support and intelligence gathering assets, however, the default position is ON. Plus with all that lovely oil...

 

"The Parties of NATO agreed that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence will assist the Party or Parties being attacked, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

 

^this is the fundamental.

 

NATO Allies decided on March 27 to take on the whole military operation in Libya under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973.

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The CIA also has been building a network of informants to support U.S. and allied military operations and to help the U.S. assess the rebels. The U.S. is trying to determine what support they need, in terms of intelligence, communications gear and possibly lethal arms, officials say.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576233252265978400.html

 

You're not posting that in response to me asking you for where you hear that they US is providing arms, are you?

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C.I.A. Agents in Libya Aid Airstrikes and Meet Rebels

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/world/africa/31intel.html?_r=1&hp

 

of course there are CIA agents there there are also Special forces. just like in afganistan at the beginning of the war there we had CIA and special forces working with the locals to call in airstrikes. dont let anyone tell you we dont have ground forces in libya.

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of course there are CIA agents there there are also Special forces. just like in afganistan at the beginning of the war there we had CIA and special forces working with the locals to call in airstrikes. dont let anyone tell you we dont have ground forces in libya.

 

 

I kinda already knew. I also know there are 2,200 marines waiting just offshore.

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Caveat, not going in to Iraq would not have made Afghanistan any easier, though.

 

i only mean the reources, time and manpower spent in iraq COULD have been put to better use in afghanistan (not to say it WOULD have been, of course.)

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Yes. There was another source that said they are already supplying arms, but I am unfamiliar with them, so I didn't post it.

 

Well it says that they are trying to DETERMINE what support they need and that strongly implies that they are not yet doing so or have even made the decision that they will. Support also does not immediately imply weaponry either. It could be medical aid, meteorological information, Jane Fonda, etc.

 

As far as I am aware there is some pretty strong opposition to arming these people as the US doesn't actually know who they are, for starters, There is intelligence that says international terror groups are there on the ground and the last thing the US wants is an uncontrolled influx of weapons throughout the region.

 

I can also say that the concept of 'the last few times we armed insurgencies like this it came back and bit us on the arse. Let's make sure we don't make the same mistake this time' is being spoken among decision makers as well.

 

So I would strongly suggest that you are making incorrect conclusions/assumptions here. As far as I am aware the only people who are more than likely supplying arms are the Egyptians and the Qataris.

 

This is a country with 6.5 million people and a continent full of mercenaries and AQ affiliates. 2k marines don't mean shit.

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Well it says that they are trying to DETERMINE what support they need and that strongly implies that they are not yet doing so or have even made the decision that they will. Support also does not immediately imply weaponry either. It could be medical aid, meteorological information, Jane Fonda, etc.

 

As far as I am aware there is some pretty strong opposition to arming these people as the US doesn't actually know who they are, for starters, There is intelligence that says international terror groups are there on the ground and the last thing the US wants is an uncontrolled influx of weapons throughout the region.

 

I can also say that the concept of 'the last few times we armed insurgencies like this it came back and bit us on the arse. Let's make sure we don't make the same mistake this time' is being spoken among decision makers as well.

 

So I would strongly suggest that you are making incorrect conclusions/assumptions here. As far as I am aware the only people who are more than likely supplying arms are the Egyptians and the Qataris.

 

This is a country with 6.5 million people and a continent full of mercenaries and AQ affiliates. 2k marines don't mean shit.

 

 

 

 

My only defense to this is: The CIA are a bunch of douches. Who knows what the fuck they're doing? They like bombing shit.

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You do make a very good point. Not sure I can argue against that.

 

 

 

 

 

However, if Gates was running for Pres., I'd vote for him.

 

Other nations can train Libyan rebels -Gates

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:06pm GMT

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFWBT01441720110331?feedType=RSS&feedName=libyaNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FAfricaLibyaNews+%28News+%2F+Africa+%2F+Libya+News%29&sp=true

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[-] Text [+]

 

WASHINGTON, March 31 (Reuters) - Other nations should be the ones to provide any training and assistance to Libyan rebels, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Thursday.

 

"In terms of providing that training, providing assistance to them, frankly there are many countries that can do that -- that is not a unique capability for the U.S. and as far as I'm concerned (somebody) else should do that," Gates told Congress.

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You do make a very good point. Not sure I can argue against that.

 

 

 

 

 

However, if Gates was running for Pres., I'd vote for him.

 

Other nations can train Libyan rebels -Gates

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:06pm GMT

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFWBT01441720110331?feedType=RSS&feedName=libyaNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FAfricaLibyaNews+%28News+%2F+Africa+%2F+Libya+News%29&sp=true

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[-] Text [+]

 

WASHINGTON, March 31 (Reuters) - Other nations should be the ones to provide any training and assistance to Libyan rebels, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Thursday.

 

"In terms of providing that training, providing assistance to them, frankly there are many countries that can do that -- that is not a unique capability for the U.S. and as far as I'm concerned (somebody) else should do that," Gates told Congress.

 

 

I don't know about voting for him but I agree with that statement. We aren't the worlds police and shouldn't be told we have any responsibility to do anything except keep our asses clean and free.

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shouldn't be told we have any responsibility to do anything except keep our asses clean and free.

 

interesting to me that in this era of globalization (esp world economy)

lots of people don't make the connection that we are affected by what happens in other places.

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The US is supplying them with weapons, huh? Show me where you get that info from, please. Not saying you are but anyone that is surprised that CIA/SF are on the ground in Libya are living in fantasy land. Even before PGMs that require illumination this would have been happening, that's what intelligence does, gets intelligence. One has to be on drugs if one does not immediately assume that assets have long been on the ground.

 

 

 

How many times does this have to happen before you realise that the constitution and reality have little to do with each other?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Listens for the sound of heads exploding

 

My head isn't exploding but I do take issue with that comment. This is a point you constantly make in your arguments whenever the law, or the constitution is brought up. Of course, in the reality we live in... which is an authoritarian out of control corrupt big government that is increasingly tied together with a corrupt global system... sure something like the constitution, which is the LAW of the land, is irrelevant. That's the whole point though, the constitution, which is the LAW, is ignored by government whenever it's inconvenient for them to abide by it. However, citizens are subjected to the fullest extent of the law in almost every situation, and the constitution is used as a justified means for exercising the most severe and harsh punishments on regular every day citizens who happen to break the law.

 

Yet, when authority, or government, or the elite populace knowingly, or unknowingly violate the laws of the constitution it's as if the thing never even mattered to begin with. That's just the every day hypocritical reality that we have to live underneath and endure. It's why I consider our government and authority to be criminal and illegitimate, because they hold us to the laws of the constitution yet they trample all over it and break the law whenever they feel it's necessary, justify it with ridiculous rhetoric, scare tactics, and double speak, and then continue on as if nothing is wrong.

 

As for voting for Gates, no I would never vote for that man or anyone who is involved in authority in this country because we've had way to many authoritarian war hawks in office who just want to police the world, and police free humanity. I'd like to take a step in the other direction for once, and see what happens if we start to give people in this nation more freedom, less security, and stop intervening in situations around the globe.

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I don't understand how a government of any kind can ignore the laws they are supposed to enforce when it comes to themselves, by than try to enforce the same law when they are the ones being taken advantage of.

 

The LAW is the law, and if you break it, regardless of your position in government or your financial situation you are in fact a criminal.

 

If resources or military strategy are the reasons behind said decisions, talk about that, not about a humanitarian mission to help people. It's totally laughable. I need to only bring up Katrina and the absurd amount of time it took to at least get SOME compensation to the workers who the government said it was okay to go down and help on 9/11. Hundreds of people died waiting for action. These are just two examples, a thread on this kind of stuff in it's own right could be made disscussing the countless occasions where these things have happened.

 

Pathetic.

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You guys who think you can rely on a piece of paper, which is just some one's word to protect your 'rights' are going to spend your life disappointed and complaining how 'it's just not right', these oppressive tyrannical govts, criminals, blah blah blah.

 

Yeah, yeah, welcome to the world kids. Nothing is the way it should be, surprise surprise, we live in a jungle no matter what your piece of paper says with all it's beautiful words and wishful thinking.

 

 

Seriously, if you think you can rely on people to do what is 'right' instead of taking advantage of opportunities, you're deluded. It is not the natural way of things. The people who accept that and learn to play the game based on the jungle concept are the ones that excel in the life whilst the others sit around and complain about injustice.

 

 

You should only ever rely on yourself. Relying on some one you've never met to live by your concept of 'right' is just crazy.

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You guys who think you can rely on a piece of paper, which is just some one's word to protect your 'rights' are going to spend your life disappointed and complaining how 'it's just not right', these oppressive tyrannical govts, criminals, blah blah blah.

 

Yeah, yeah, welcome to the world kids. Nothing is the way it should be, surprise surprise, we live in a jungle no matter what your piece of paper says with all it's beautiful words and wishful thinking.

 

 

Seriously, if you think you can rely on people to do what is 'right' instead of taking advantage of opportunities, you're deluded. It is not the natural way of things. The people who accept that and learn to play the game based on the jungle concept are the ones that excel in the life whilst the others sit around and complain about injustice.

 

 

You should only ever rely on yourself. Relying on some one you've never met to live by your concept of 'right' is just crazy.

 

nah, what's crazy is your mentality which creates this chaotic world we live in where there is rampant corruption, inequality, injustice, war, and strife. it isn't just a piece of paper, and it's funny that you say it that way because you sort of sound like George W. Bush who called it the same thing with content and resentment for the law. What it is, along with the bill of rights, is the very basis of who we are as free individuals in this world of law, not chaos. It outlines our rights as human beings, and to dismiss it as a piece of paper is similar to dismissing the philosophy of plato, or aristotle. To simply say it just words on a piece of paper, when it has much more meaning to it for every day ordinary people who live their lives to build structure and foundation to progress towards a better future for new generations. It's amazing to me that you dismiss it in the same way these corrupt illegitimate criminal governments and tyrants do, and for that reason you are just as much a part of the bigger problem that faces us as a society. I'm sorry to say that, but that's honestly how I feel when I hear that from you or anyone else.

 

If we as individuals were allowed to simply take advantage of opportunities, there wouldn't be a large majority of our population imprisoned and enslaved by the police state here and around the globe. When we the people take advantage of opportunities, we are hit with the book and the law comes after us in it's full strength to issue severe and harsh punishments under the justification of the law. Yet, when government, tyrants, or elitists do the very same opportunistic behavior they are rewarded, promoted, and encouraged to continue. The hubris and attitude you presented in your very last post is the same attitude they have, and it's these sorts of personalities that lead us into war, destroy our economies, and lie to us a on a regular basis in contempt of the law, and with resentment towards our "piece of paper". They have no allegiance to anything but themselves, and their greed and corruption destroys society and propels it towards chaos. If this opportunistic world is the vision you have for your children to live in, your future generations, than what? That is something you are comfortable with?

 

Don't pretend to like the Constitution doesn't encourage people to rely only on themselves. I believe it is probably one of the most liberty encouraging documents that promotes individualism and self-worth ever written in history. The Constitution doesn't promote socialism, it doesn't promote collectivism, it only promotes relying on yourself and the rights you have as a free individual in society that can not be infringed upon by any government power foreign or domestic.

 

I think you are far off the mark on this one.

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Given that you just said those with power ignore the law and those without power are subject to the law and you are complaining about this I'd say I'm right on point.

 

I'm not saying I support this concept or facilitate it, as per usual my objectivity is being confused as a value judgement.

 

All I'm saying is that this is the reality we live in and the fact that you are complaining that the constitution is flouted by those with power pretty much supports my analysis of the situation.

 

Once again, if you think that a few words written on a piece of paper are going to protect you just because you value it you are going to be sorely disappointed...., sounds like you already are. Get used to it because I can't see it changing.

 

Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it will be.

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interesting to me that in this era of globalization (esp world economy)

lots of people don't make the connection that we are affected by what happens in other places.

 

 

I make the connection, I just don't like our country jumping in fights that aren't ours.

We've got a huge debt right now, we're stretched pretty thinly militarily, and we just can't afford any "nation building" as G.W.B. put it.

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Given that you just said those with power ignore the law and those without power are subject to the law and you are complaining about this I'd say I'm right on point.

 

I'm not saying I support this concept or facilitate it, as per usual my objectivity is being confused as a value judgement.

 

All I'm saying is that this is the reality we live in and the fact that you are complaining that the constitution is flouted by those with power pretty much supports my analysis of the situation.

 

Once again, if you think that a few words written on a piece of paper are going to protect you just because you value it you are going to be sorely disappointed...., sounds like you already are. Get used to it because I can't see it changing.

 

Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it will be.

 

it's not complaining, and trust me i realize you are being objective because thats the way you choose to converse here 99% of the time... nothing wrong with that. but its not complaining, its stating the obvious fact which is the reality of the situation. and these are issues that concern people when presidents launch us into unconstitutional criminal wars, without consenting to congress, without checks and balances, and in contempt of the very same laws that we are held accountable to on the civilian level, and then go on to justify it as some humanitarian, good-will promoting democracy across the globe bullshit. that is a legitimate concern to a legitimate issue that is part of this conversation, it isn't complaining. it's something that should be addressed and continue to be pressed even in the mainstream debate. power can't just continue to do whatever it wants to do, just because they can. period.

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it's not complaining, and trust me i realize you are being objective because thats the way you choose to converse here 99% of the time... nothing wrong with that. but its not complaining, its stating the obvious fact which is the reality of the situation. and these are issues that concern people when presidents launch us into unconstitutional criminal laws, without consenting to congress, without checks and balances, and in contempt of the very same laws that we are held accountable to on the civilian level. that is a legitimate concern to a legitimate issue that is part of this conversation, it isn't complaining. it's something that should be addressed and continue to be pressed even in the mainstream debate.

 

This I agree with 100%.

 

 

power can't just continue to do whatever it wants to do, just because they can. period.

 

This remains to be seen, though.

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I like the Constitution too, and would love to see it applied in practice and in spirit in all cases, but it doesn't surprise me that the people in power don't share this view.

 

For a 200+ yo document, it's very progressive and egalitarian...to the point where it interferes with a lot of things having to do with commerce and control. In theory that's why we have a Supreme Court, to argue over the finer points no one could have predicted in the late 18th/early 19th century.

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Who said anything about nation building?

 

You're bombing some elements of a military, you don't even have forces of any real number on the ground. Secondly, your naval and air assets are not stretched thin at all.

 

 

 

Just wait.

 

US military takes lead on Libya but for how long?

 

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE72J00M20110320

 

US Role in Libya Costs Hundreds of Millions So Far

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=13206038

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the constitution has been the biggest failure in limiting government i can think of. i think christo is right in this regard. it is fantasy to think that a piece of paper can limit the power of the government. but i do think if it WAS possible, society would be better off

 

and the supreme court is probably the most guilty in this whole scam because they some how unconstitutionally took over the monopoly of interpreting the document.

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