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christo-f

So I was wondering why all you fucking cry babies....

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....that were heart broken over Israelis killing turks in international waters were totally silent on Lebanese killing Israelis on the Israeli side of the border?

 

Personally I don't care who kills who but I do like to point out hypocrisy and bias.

 

 

 

 

Here's a backgrounder for you (not my words but I back them):

 

 

 

Hezbollah Secretary-General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said in a speech Aug. 3 that his organization will “not stand silent” on the border clash between Lebanese and Israeli troops that resulted in the deaths of three Lebanese soldiers earlier in the day. In a line reminiscent of many Iranian speeches, Nasrallah said “the Israeli hand that targets the Lebanese army will be cut off.” He also offered his organization’s support to the Lebanese military, saying that the “smartest thing is to behave how we behaved. We told the Lebanese military — we are prepared, we are with you, and we will help if needed.”

 

Rumors are circulating that Hezbollah fighters were on the scene of the border clash and intended to escalate the situation. Sources in the Lebanese military do not believe Hezbollah fighters were directly involved in the skirmish, but there is reason to suspect the group was behind the instigation of the fighting. Hezbollah has significant influence over and an established presence in the already weak and fractured Lebanese army. The organization makes it a point to discharge a portion of its recruits after they serve two years in the military wing and then enlists them in the Lebanese army. This allows Hezbollah to both control the composition of the army’s ranking officers and influence specific operations. This latest border skirmish could be an illustration of Hezbollah’s influence over the Lebanese army.

 

Given that the Lebanese army typically refrains from confronting Israel Defense Forces (IDF) personnel during routine activities, such as maintenance and repair work on the security fence and perimeter, the decision by the Lebanese army patrol to fire on the IDF forces is anomalous, suggesting that the move was preplanned and perhaps driven by Hezbollah interests. The chief of Israel’s Northern Command, Maj. Gen. Gadi Eizenkot, publicly described the incident as a “deliberate ambush.”

 

Hezbollah — and its patrons in Iran — have a strong interest in raising the threat of a broader military confrontation, but Hezbollah has little desire to escalate the situation further and provoke an actual fight with the IDF for fear of incurring massive losses. Hezbollah is already under fire in Lebanon over a Special Tribunal probe into the 2005 assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri that is expected to indict Hezbollah members. The group is attempting to deflect blame and attention away from this probe and is using the incident to justify its existence as a resistance movement since the Lebanese army is incapable of defending itself on its own. The Lebanese army chief, as one source earlier indicated, could have also welcomed the border distraction to divert attention from the crisis over the tribunal (the army has no interest in confronting Hezbollah in such a domestic crisis and would rather have the focus shift to the Israeli threat). Meanwhile, Iran is attempting to use a crisis in Lebanon as a flashpoint in its negotiations with the United States over Iraq and the nuclear issue by illustrating another hot spot in the region where it holds the cards to cause trouble should Iranian demands go unfulfilled.

 

Though a number of political motivations appear to be in play with this border skirmish, and Iran can be expected to continue prodding Hezbollah, there is little indication so far that either Hezbollah or Israel intends to escalate the border clash into a more serious military confrontation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Basically there is an internationally recognised border between Israel and Lebanon that is also patrolled by UN peace keepers [uNIFIL]. Israel has put a fence up on its side of the border so it can decide the best place to put the fence, thinking observation, fire lanes, etc. They operate cameras on the fence to surveil the border area.

 

Before they do work on the border line they are to inform UNIFIL and Lebonese. sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. This time they did, everyone knew they were going to be there. When they arrived they were hit by sniper fire, that means that the Lebanese attackers were informed of their whereabouts and pre-prepared for their deployment and there with the mission to attack Israelis on the Israeli side of the border whilst the IDF personnel were carrying out peaceful operations.

 

 

 

As I said, I couldn't give a shit whether god himself was hit by the Lebs, Israelis or creature from the black lagoon.

 

I just want to know why all you cats that screamed fucking murder when it was the Israelis killing people are silent when it is the Israelis being killed.

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Killing period is stupid, but it's inevitable because people are stupid in groups and they do shit like that. Lynch mobs, pogroms, crusades, jihad....these aren't typically individual actions, they're demonstrations of the hive mind in human beings.

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I think the answer you're looking for has very little to do with logic and is based in emotion. The main reason is that people who were vocal about the International waters incident is they don't believe Israel has a right to even exist. Many people have the opinion that evicting a population from their homes in order to create a new state and populate it with foreigners is wrong. Therefore, many at least understand or don't feel as judgmental about retribution from the evicted populous and their supporters towards said new state and are therefor less vocal.

 

It's the same way many in the United States admire small tribes like the Apache over other larger tribes for being so resistant to their eviction and marginalization. It's the universal way people will root for the underdog or the little guy against their more powerful opponent. This is the main reason I'm assuming. Like I said, very little to do with logic or clear thinking, killing is wrong no matter which side commits it, but the fact is as humans we do not think logically all the time.

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My problem is not who's getting killed, but who's doing the killing.

Israel is supposed to be the civilized, western nation in these conflicts: they have "defence forces" and the US connection. They're against the type of enemy that uses slingshots against tanks and associates martyrdom with crowd surfing. There are some things everyone should expect from Israel that can not be expected from the Hizbollah for a long time.

 

Instead of reasonable moral standards, Israel is known for bombing UN peacekeepers, dropping WP on civilians and assassinating innocent people in Norway, among others. Matter of fact Israel is constantly getting away with loads of different outrageous and inexplicable shit all over the world. I was very surprized the flotilla incident actually played out against them instead of the hum de dum publicity that usually ensues. in the thread regarding that raid I focused my criticism to the same issues: Israel lacked standards and responsibility, declining to the apish level of their enemy like so many times before.

 

Let's say you have a cat in your neighborhood that keeps coming at everyone's backyards, fucking up the plants, using kids' sandbox as it's toilet and bringing dead rodents inside the house. Israel is the neighbor who hisses at the cat, claws it and does all kinds of stupid inane little shit that only makes the cat more angry and confused. That's a lousy metaphor to the actual conflict, but within lies the core reason I don't "support" Israel or have any actual interest in it's possible difficulties in dealing with the Palestinians.

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Israeli troops that resulted in the deaths of three Lebanese soldiers

 

 

Where does it say Israelis were killed?

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Israeli troops that resulted in the deaths of three Lebanese soldiers

 

 

Where does it say Israelis were killed?

 

Yeah, one dead, bunch wounded after being fired on first/ambushed.

 

Sorry, thought it was in that rep.

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I understand your logic here but some of the facts/assumptions that it is based upon are not entirely accurate.

 

 

 

My problem is not who's getting killed, but who's doing the killing.

Israel is supposed to be the civilized, western nation in these conflicts: they have "defence forces" and the US connection.

Lebanon has a defense force that the US helps fund and equip. The US recently donated intelligence and surveillance technology for the Leb Armed Forces to use as Hezbollah had created its own telecom network throughout the south and Beirut separate to that of the state run system. Hezbollah has since taken control of that system and taken down large elements of Israel's intelligence network in the country. Hez has been infiltrating the LAF for years.

 

Leb has a defence force, it has a US connection and it was the LAF that attacked the Israelis.

 

 

They're against the type of enemy that uses slingshots against tanks and associates martyrdom with crowd surfing. There are some things everyone should expect from Israel that can not be expected from the Hizbollah for a long time.

 

The Israelis were not attacked with a sling shot, they were hit by a trained sniper with modern weaponry. Hezbollah is trained by Iran and Syria, has a modern and competent command structure, is supplied by Iran and Syria and is a more modern, experienced and equipped armed force than most African and South East Asian (and some European) armies.

 

Hezbollah is a well trained, funded, equipped and experienced armed force. they are not using sling shots against tanks, they have mid-range surface to surface missiles with decent accuracy and have publicly threatened to hit the Dimona reactor in Israel..., which is also against international law.

 

 

 

Instead of reasonable moral standards, Israel is known for bombing UN peacekeepers,

 

Hez has attacked UNIFIL forces in southern lebanon.

 

dropping WP on civilians

 

Hez dropped hundreds of missiles in civilian areas in 2006.

 

 

and assassinating innocent people in Norway

 

Hez has launched a number of attacks in other countries such as Argentina in the past and taken credit for it publicly

 

among others.

 

Hez has infiltrated Israel, kidnapped soldiers and executed them

 

 

Israel lacked standards and responsibility, declining to the apish level of their enemy like so many times before.

 

Look up a man called Mugniyeh and read a little bit about what Hez has done in Leb to Lebanese people and outside Leb to Jewish people.

 

Let's say you have a cat in your neighborhood that keeps coming at everyone's backyards, fucking up the plants, using kids' sandbox as it's toilet and bringing dead rodents inside the house. Israel is the neighbor who hisses at the cat, claws it and does all kinds of stupid inane little shit that only makes the cat more angry and confused. That's a lousy metaphor to the actual conflict, but within lies the core reason I don't "support" Israel or have any actual interest in it's possible difficulties in dealing with the Palestinians.

 

So you're saying that Israel should just kill the cat outright instead of provoking it?

 

 

 

 

Once again, don't get me wrong I am no supporter of Israel, at all. However I can't stand the double standards that they or anyone else are held to when people think that the Arabs/Persians are hard done by.

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Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by many and that's the point really. I'm not taking part of the usual binary argument of israel vs. hezbollah. I'm against both, but I suppose I can relate more to Israel and therefore expect more from them. You can't expect Hezbollah to worry about bombing civilians and apologize after scandals arise. Israel COULD be the good guy, but they don't seem to even try. It's as if they really want to stay away from "turn the other cheek" shit, when all that's asked is to be more professional, or just use discretion, ROE or whatever.

 

I think I could pretty much agree on what you think about everyone who instantly criticize Israel in every occasion. My personal stand is, I can't respect hezbollah by pretty obvious reasons, and I can't respect Israel because they keep fucking up when they have the moral advantage. I like to think there are many Israelis who would agree, but I might be wrong. In actuality I feel very indifferent about all this shit

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Point, 99%

 

 

If we were talking fatah or Hamas I would agree 100%

 

however HZ is a completely different game.

 

More when I have keyboard

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Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by many and that's the point really. I'm not taking part of the usual binary argument of israel vs. hezbollah. I'm against both, but I suppose I can relate more to Israel and therefore expect more from them. You can't expect Hezbollah to worry about bombing civilians and apologize after scandals arise. Israel COULD be the good guy, but they don't seem to even try. It's as if they really want to stay away from "turn the other cheek" shit, when all that's asked is to be more professional, or just use discretion, ROE or whatever.

 

I think I could pretty much agree on what you think about everyone who instantly criticize Israel in every occasion. My personal stand is, I can't respect hezbollah by pretty obvious reasons, and I can't respect Israel because they keep fucking up when they have the moral advantage. I like to think there are many Israelis who would agree, but I might be wrong. In actuality I feel very indifferent about all this shit

 

basically hit the nail on the head

 

to be honest the last week or so, i have decided to keep my head out of the news for a bit, just relax with my son, so i hadn't even heard about this incident until this thread was made haha

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Sorry but it is not the nail on the head.

 

This is a MASSIVE and very common misconception. People think that if you're an Arab or Persian you're immediately and underdog by sake of being Arab/Persian.

 

It's just not correct.

 

I'll say again.

 

This idea that every non-Israeli in the region is a rock throwing teenager living in squalor is COMPLETELY misplaced, that IS NOT the reality here.

 

 

The Lebanese army is funded and equipped by the United States. This is not a secret and is no fucking conspiracy theory. The only thing that stops the LAF from being a modern army is HEZBOLLAH, SYRIA and IRAN. This is NOT Israel's doing.

 

 

 

 

Israel is stupid, barbaric and fucking retarded for the way they have played things since 76. They have WAY more than their fair share to answer for and they more than others (in a rational world) should know better than the rest.

 

 

HOWEVER, the criticisms of Israel seem to always be based in a completely fucking misguided understanding of their opponents. If you think that Hezbollah is some kind of rock throwing poverty stricken hard done by under dog you need to

 

 

Get the fuck out of the argument and do some fuck9ng rading and research.

 

 

 

Hamas and Fatah, yeah, sure, massive underdogs. Hezbollah, no, fuck off they are more fucing competant than the Australian Defense Force, and I say that with genuine humility.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't give a fuck who kills who. You try kill me or my close ones and we got some fin. Israelis and Lebs, by god I hoe the all fucking die. BUT don't go falpping your fucking gums and moralisinsng to me and any one else if yo thing that hezbollah is some kind of impotent rat tag sticky bomb crew that can barley fucking axe a tree.

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hahaI don't think Hezbollah are rock throwing goons, they are a terrorist unit, properly trained and financed, but as they are a terrorist unit they arent held to the same standards on a moral point of view as a civilised countries army. That is why normally there is so much outcry against Israel.

 

Leb forces are obviously trained and financed etc so this situation is fucked up as well, again I don't care who kills who, nothign will change, if this scenario ended another one would just develop.

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Ah, and that be the issue.

 

Civilised counties are often more barbaric empowered (embiggened) by capability and conquest than most other "terrorist" organisation could be.

 

 

Great Britain begat Australian, India, Singapore, New Zealand, Myanmar, Malaysia, etc., through virtue of force. These colonies have since used terror and coercion to their own aims just as GB used terror and coercion to form these colonies.

 

Israel uses terror, Robespiere, Stalin, Causescu, Leekuan-yu, Lukashenko, Umarov, Nasrallah, Abdullah Aziz, Assad, Bashir, Zuma/ANC/Terra Blanche, ETA, Zapatistas, Hirohito, Bainimarama, LeMay, Karl Gustav, Hitler and Darth fucking Vader used state terror for what they felt was the national interest.

 

That's how states work against their own citizens, it's called taxation and law (que AOD). Terror is the fear of future suffering due to policy direction.

 

Name me one fucking state that does not use coercion to sustain power.

 

 

 

 

Why should Israel be singled out more than any other state?

 

 

 

 

 

Israel are bigger bastards than most because their threat is extreme and immediate.

 

 

One may say exactly the same for Hamas, fateh, Hezbollah, etc. etc.

 

 

 

Lose the "tears" and see it for what it really is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Decy;notearsoner

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I got nothing against Jew's if they want too think their gods chosen peep's its fine with me. In fact I don't care what phony ol' spook you want too put your everlasting 'faith' in.

 

israel just shouldn't exist though and fuck anyone who thinks it should, i hope you burn in the proverbial hell you probably believe in. Actually anyone who thinks theology has a place in geo-politics should have their balls/clit ripped out through their ass.

 

Anyone else find it slightly ironic that they recreated the same cut-off ghetto's they got herded into, for the Palestinians? I thought they said 'never again' after the holocaust, or did they mean only for Jews?

 

I may be strong worded but I got Palestinian and Lebanese friends who had their parents and families murdered by israel. I also got some very orthodox (and moderate) Jewish friends who agree that israel as a country shouldn't exist and actually are ashamed by zionists being grouped in with them or claiming too represent them.

 

 

And before some of you try and put me down know I'm a tolerant dude, total equality, liberty and freedom are the only things I care about. I think you should be able too live your life how ever you want, up until the point you infringe on someone else's ability too life in a free, and equal way. And you can't live like that in israel, hence my extreme distaste for all things zionist. I still think that if the whole area went back too being Palestine the arabs would have too allow the Jews too live side by side as equals.

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Ok, so if Israel GTFO and said there is no such country anymore, what do you think would happen?

 

 

Do you think it would become a Palestinian state and they'd form their own govt amongst themselves and create relations with the surrounding states? Or do you think there would be civil war between the Palestinians with Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon backing different factions and Iran on the side looking to move in to the void?

 

 

You mentioned what should and shouldn't have a place in geopolitics so I gather you may have an opinion on the geopolitics of the region...., Keeping in mind that Hamas is a theological entity.

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Well if the British Mandate for Palestine was still on the go, I would suggest an ease into a independent Palestinian state with a constitutional democracy and proportional representation voting system.

If this was the case a total British withdrawal of forces would be unlikely so they would take care of the defense of the nation until it could transition into having its own armed forces with full nuclear capability (only way a country can maintain sovereignty these days). I would make the bilingualism mandatory too help ease cultural differences, along with having a extreme emphasis on shared cultural heritage of the main cultural groups of the region.

 

The educational system would be my main concern, you want too educate and not indoctrinate the population into realizing the minuteness of their differences. Its going too take decades too let the old fucks who have influence in the communities too die and its only with their death that new ideas could flourish properly. I would also suggest that the educational system be totally secular with religious schools being totally against the law.

Also hate crimes should be punished by death after a fair trial with the proper appeal process, at least until the region is more stable.

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No I'm not going back to the 40s with this, I'm saying if Israel tomorrow said "screw this, there's too much security risk here and Fiji said we can go there. So we're leaving and you guys can have this place to yourselves".

 

What do you think would happen? Not what should happen, but would happen.

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You mentioned what should and shouldn't have a place in geopolitics so I gather you may have an opinion on the geopolitics of the region

 

I come from an Irish family, we got booted out of the country by the british after the 1798 revolution. All too accustomed to this religious bigotry...

 

 

No I'm not going back to the 40s with this, I'm saying if Israel tomorrow said "screw this, there's too much security risk here and Fiji said we can go there. So we're leaving and you guys can have this place to yourselves".

 

What do you think would happen? Not what should happen, but would happen.

 

 

 

Oh ahahaha fuck man the place would go too utter shit, probably something similar too somalia

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