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A New Middle Eastern Dynamic and the Coming of the Turks...., again


christo-f

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Israel perhaps more volatile than any other country

I'm amazed they have yet to cause a real big war.

Sometimes i wonder why America never provoked

Israel into a war with Iran or why the west didn't

allow israel to handle Iraq. Let Israel fight because

thats what they seem to want to do anyways. If

they get in over their heads let them drown.

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Israel has had a number of wars since 1948 with Egypt, Syria, Jordan..., most of which they would have lost without outside support. And that is the same reason that they don't go up against countries like Iran, Iraq, etc. Israel is a small country, dude, not so many people there. That means a small army and and even smaller arms manufacturing base and economy to buy big ticket items like fighter jets, naval vessels, missile defense, nuclear program. Without support from (originally europe) the US or another outside great power Israel is in a VERY vulnerable position and would have serious trouble defending itself in the mid to long-term.

 

Plus, their population is largely concentrated in Tel Aviv. One nuke on that and the game is over. Very vulnerable country with a history of genocide against it.

 

And people are still surprised when they act aggressively without giving a fuck for anyone else.

 

That's what I find most surprising, no one seems to want to see what is a natural outcome of history, geography and demography. Israel's reactions and behaviour are predetermined and set in stone due to their reality. And when people launch flotillas like this they are very aware of this and use that reality against them to turn world opinion against Israel.

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Hahaha, like I said, my friend has a particular insight within certain circles.

 

By the way, the current MOSSAD chief yesterday said that Israel is increasingly becoming a burden on the US. I can post the article if need be. Along within the Israeli cabinet members have been blaming Netanyahu, Barak, Leiberman, Yalon, etc. for not consulting them before the raid. I can post that article as well.

 

Remember I said that this flotilla was designed to wedge the split in Israel and between the US? My argument seems to be holding at least some water.....

 

 

 

Former Mossad agent ridicules Gaza ship raid

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/06/former_mossad_agent_ridicules.html?wprss=spy-talk

By Jeff Stein | June 1, 2010; 8:50 PM ET

 

The Israeli commando attack on a civilian flotilla was “so stupid it is stupefying,” says former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky.

 

Ostrovsky spent six years in the Israeli navy, rising to the rank of lieutenant commander before Mossad recruited him in 1982. He quit after four years and in the 1990s he wrote two highly critical, first-person books about the intelligence service.

 

Monday’s raid on a seaborne civilian aid mission to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, which left nine dead and about 75 wounded, was carried out by the Israeli navy’s commando unit, “Shayetet 13,” Ostrovsky said.

 

"It's a fantastic unit. ... It was not typical of Flotilla 13,” he said, using the English translation for Shayetet, which he called “one of the top units in the Israeli military.”

 

Members of the unit “have trained extensively for overtaking a ship," he said. "However, their training was directed at overtaking a hijacked ship.”

 

Evidently the tactics weren't adjusted for this mission.

 

"Mossad probably had more than one man on board" the ships, Ostrovsky said, secret agents who would have been giving Israeli mission planners an accurate picture of what was happening on the vessels.

 

Were their reports ignored?

 

"At this point," says Jeffrey White, a former Middle East analyst at the Defense Intelligence Agency, "it is hard to say if this was a failure of collection, assessment or operational preparation."

 

"My sense is that somewhere in the process from collection to conduct, the notion that this would be an action against moderate opposition became fixed ...."

 

“The mistakes were on every level,” said Ostrovsky, “from the order to forcefully board outside the territorial waters to the actual attack.”

 

Responsibility for the raid, which has provoked widespread condemnation and a diplomatic uproar, should be laid at the feet of “the shoot-from-the-hip prime minister,” Ostrovsky said -- Binyamin Netanyahu, whom he blamed for two previous messy intelligence operations in Dubai and Jordan.

 

Flotilla 13’s typically careful planning, he speculated, was supplanted by orders from Netanyahu or his ultra-conservative foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, to “do something now.”

 

“Nobody can do a good job in a rush,” he said.

 

Stopping the flotilla in international waters was “a grave mistake,” Ostrovsky said.

 

“Why not wait? They knew where it was going.”

 

Ostrovsky, who developed missile capabilities for Israeli gunboats, said there were several, far safer, alternatives to sending black-clad commandos rappelling onto the ship from frightfully noisy helicopters in the middle of the night.

 

The commandos could have easily sneaked up to the ships and boats from behind in “wet submarines” (which look like open torpedoes) and disabled their propellers, he said.

 

“Eventually they’d run out of food and water and they could be towed to shore,” said Ostrovsky, now chief executive of TheBookPatch.com, a Web site for writers.

 

Ostrovsky said it was also inexplicable that the commandos were sent to land on the top decks in the middle of the ships, where they were vulnerable to resistance from terrified and angry passengers and crew. A better tactic would have been to have the commandos board from the stern and bow and work inward.

 

In any event, the episode has become a public relations debacle for Israel, Ostrovsky said.

 

“We look like the British stopping the Exodus,” he said.

 

The 1960 blockbuster movie, based on a best-seller by the same name, dramatized the efforts of 611 Jewish refugees to defy a British blockade of occupied Palestine after World War II

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israel has made short work of pretty much every conflict.

Israel unofficially has nuclear weapons. Believed to have

developed chemical and biological weapons.

Israel has money. Since the birth of the nation they

received weapons technology from America and did nothing but

improve it. Mandatory conscription at 18. Probably has close

to 3 million available to come to arms and they were all

in the active military at 1 point in time... The last thing

Israel wants is nuclear Iran just like they didn't want

nuclear Iraq. Sworn enemies with bombs that could

take out Tel-Aviv with the push of a button. Thing is I

consider Iran to be crazy enough to pull that trigger.

Crazy region that causes nothing but problems. Countries

that consider nuclear weapons as offensive weapons

instead of weapons to prevent wars.

I've known israelis. They are intense people and very

much committed to Israel. Certainly willing to watch the

world burn in the interest of Israel

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^I have in the past, I just happen to find a lot of misinformation floating (no pun intended) around when it comes to Israel.

 

Actually, Israel has ran nuclear scenarios on all their major cities and concluded that if Tel Aviv were hit the damage would be low, the city next to it, Binai Brak on the other hand would suffer heavy casualties according to the report. Jerusalem would be fine similar to Tel Aviv.

 

I dont think anyone is trying to feel the response to that kind of attack, especially with their large unconfirmed nuclear arsenal, chemical and biological weapons. Instead they will continue their electronic intifada, and chip away at Israel, which is why they need to get everything under control quickly.

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I like my homeland quite a bit, but I am not afraid to call it out and distance my opinion from it when it behaves wrongfully. And believe me, Puerto Rico does that a lot.

 

Right on. I was just pointing out that he loves his homeland. I don't think he's acting as an apologist so much.

 

/not putting words in anyones mouth (or trying not to)

 

Mar: Israel would wipe the floor with anyone who attacked (in the ME region). Best Air Force in the world, arguably best intelligence,

one of the best special ops, etc.

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Actually, Israel has ran nuclear scenarios on all their major cities and concluded that if Tel Aviv were hit the damage would be low, the city next to it, Binai Brak on the other hand would suffer heavy casualties according to the report. Jerusalem would be fine similar to Tel Aviv.

 

Not sure how a densely packed area would sustain low damage from a nuclear detonation. Any chance you could direct me to that report, please?

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Not sure how a densely packed area would sustain low damage from a nuclear detonation. Any chance you could direct me to that report, please?

 

 

I was wondering this, as well. Isn't current nuclear arms technology pretty advanced so that the fallout wouldn't be nearly what we saw in Japan?

 

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My knowledge of current nuclear tech is lacking, unfortunately. Another reason why I'd like to see this report. I feel that if a nuclear weapon could not significantly damage a small and tightly packed city like Tel Aviv then...., I can't even finish this sentence. Very interested to see that report, leave it at that.

 

 

 

This is an interesting article from the NYT. Read it with some skepticism as there seems to be a bit of a slant in focusing on one side of the story with a lot of inference and little strong evidence. The title itself is heavily misleading. Also interesting to see how this story is being framed in the US.

 

 

Turkish Funds Helped Group Test Blockade of Gaza

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeast/02activists.html?pagewanted=all

Published: June 1, 2010

 

ISTANBUL — Since 2007, a small group of hard-core activists has repeatedly tried to sail cargo-laden ships into Gaza in an effort to thwart Israel’s blockade. But when the Free Gaza Movement teamed up with a much wealthier Turkish organization to assemble a flotilla, it became more than a nuisance, supercharged by the group’s money, manpower and symbolic resonance into what Israel sees as a serious and growing threat.

 

After a botched raid that killed nine activists, an international uproar is intensifying pressure on Israel’s blockade. And the movement has hit on a strategy that, even when it fails in its aims, succeeds in tactical terms: The world sees Israel use military force against civilians.

 

On Tuesday in a bustling neighborhood in Istanbul, the Turkish organization was celebrating a strange success. “We became famous,” said Omar Faruk, a board member of the group, Insani Yardim Vakfi, known by its Turkish initials, I.H.H. “We are very thankful to the Israeli authorities.” That's the part that I am getting at here. The effort was not designed to simply help the poor Palestinians, it was a very strategic and well planned move to challenge Israel. Not that there is anything wrong with that, nothing wrong with good strategy at all!! I'm just trying to see this for what it actually is and cut through all the spin [christo]

 

The group brought large boats and millions of dollars in donations to a cause that had struggled to gain attention and aid the Palestinians. Particularly galling to Israel is the fact that the group comes from Turkey, an ally, but one whose relations with Israel have become increasingly strained.

 

Israeli authorities say I.H.H. bolsters Hamas, which runs Gaza and which they see as doctrinally committed to destroy the state of Israel. It also charges that the group has links to Al Qaeda and has bought weapons, charges the group denies.

 

The organization is funded entirely on donations, its members said, money that comes from Turkey’s religious merchant class, an affluent section of Turkish society that has brought the party of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to power. Inside the group’s tidy three-story office building in central Istanbul Tuesday, women in colorful scarves brought money and were given receipts.

 

The group bought three boats, including the Mavi Marmara, the one that was raided, from a company owned by the Istanbul city government for $1.8 million. The boats carried aid that included building materials — cement, tiles and steel, which Israel bans because it says they could be put to military means — worth about $10 million, members said.

 

Mr. Faruk argues his organization was crucial in helping to project Free Gaza’s cause. “We changed the balance,” he said.

 

The Turkish group is a charity, members said, but the Israel Project, a private nonprofit advocacy group, sent an Internet link to journalists with references to what it described as the group’s “radical Islamic, anti-Western orientation.” The link alleges that the group supports Hamas, in part through a branch it opened in the Gaza Strip, the charity it sends them, and in meetings and speeches by Bulent Yildirim, its leader, and Hamas officials.

 

Israeli authorities said the group had been raided in 1997 by Turkish authorities, who turned up weapons in one of their offices. Ali Adakoglu, another board member, said there had been a raid on the house of a member in 1997, but he argued that it was politically motivated, since that was the year of a Turkish military crackdown on Islamist groups. He denied that weapons had been found.

 

“This is an Islamist charity, quite fundamentalist, quite close to Hamas,” said Henri J. Barkey, a professor of international relations at Lehigh University. “They say they do charity work, but they’ve been accused of gunrunning and other things, and their rhetoric has been inflammatory against Israel and sometimes against Jews.”

 

The organization was founded in the early 1990s, first as a charity for the poor in Istanbul, Turkey’s largest city, and later for Bosnian war victims. It now runs charity and relief work in more than 100 countries, including Haiti and nations in Africa, according to the deputy director, Yavuz Dede.

 

The Free Gaza Movement was formed in September 2006 by a group of passionate Palestinian supporters, most of whom had been barred from ever returning to Israel. The group says it receives most of its money in donations.

 

“We asked ourselves, what can we do to make a difference?” said Greta Berlin, the group’s 69-year-old co-founder and spokeswoman. “We said, ‘Let’s sail a boat to Gaza.’ That was literally how it started.”

 

At first, no one seemed to care much. Five times the Free Gaza Movement sailed from Cyprus, where they are based, to Gaza. Israel ultimately came to believe that a threat was evolving, fearing that ships coming into port could transport weapons. Israeli officials said they feared the prospect of Hamas being as powerfully armed as Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

 

The Free Gaza Movement has its roots in the International Solidarity Movement, another organization that sought to take direct action in defense of Palestinians, using nonviolent strategies to impede Israeli military actions in the occupied territories. Members would often act as human shields.

 

In 2003, an Israeli Army bulldozer crushed to death an American woman, Rachel Corrie, who had kneeled in the dirt to prevent it from destroying a Palestinian home.

 

It took the members two years to raise money necessary to buy the first two fishing boats, maintain and fuel them, Ms. Berlin said. But after that first landing, she said, the group quickly received enough donations to buy a small yacht, which they named Dignity. With the new boat, four more times Israel let the group dock at Gaza.

 

On the sixth attempt to land in Gaza, Israel decided that was enough. The shift came after Israel invaded Gaza in December 2008, saying it needed to retaliate after thousands of rockets had been fired into civilian neighborhoods.

 

They loaded the boat with activists and headed to Gaza. It was dark and Ms. Berlin said that an Israeli ship rammed the boat three times, until it retreated to Lebanon. That ship eventually sank when it returned to port in Cyprus.

 

The group raised more money and managed to buy a small ferry that could hold 30 passengers. This one they called The Spirit of Humanity. They tried three more times, with no success. On their last try, in July 2009, she said, Israel boarded the boat and detained the passengers. Israel never returned the ship, she said.

 

“We were pretty dismayed because we had no boats and no money,” Ms. Berlin said.

 

She said that former Malaysia officials and the Perdana Global Peace Organization, which describes itself on its Web site as opposed to war, helped them raise enough to buy two yachts and a cargo ship. Then they decided to team up with other groups to stage a multiship flotilla. The movement has grown into a diverse coalition of organizations and activists, often with little in common apart from opposition to the Israeli blockade of Gaza, making it difficult to generalize about its funding, views or radical connections, according to several analysts.

 

Evan F. Kohlmann, a veteran terrorism analyst with Flashpoint Global Partners in New York, said American diplomats and politicians, Holocaust survivors and leftist writers all have offered their names, time or money to the cause, ignoring or oblivious to the role of others with more militant connections, he said.

 

Ms. Berlin, the outspoken co-founder, is originally from Los Angeles. She was married for 14 years to a Palestinian, with whom she had two children, and for 14 years to an American Jew. She likes to joke and says that makes her the most qualified “anti-Semite.”

 

But when she is not joking she says that her detractors in Israel are right, that she does not accept Israel as a Jewish state, though she contends that is part of a larger philosophy which opposes all national borders.

 

“You decide in your life what you are passionate about,” she said. “I happen to be passionate about the Palestinians who have had no rights since 1948.”

 

Sabrina Tavernise reported from Istanbul, and Michael Slackman from Jerusalem. Scott Shane contributed reporting from Washington, and Sebnem Arsu from Istanbul.

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Let's see if this gets confirmed by Hamas.

 

 

 

 

 

About 10 truckloads of aid from flotilla transferred to Gaza (Extra)

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1560174.php/About-10-truckloads-of-aid-from-flotilla-transferred-to-Gaza-Extra

Jun 2, 2010, 9:36 GMT

 

Tel Aviv - Israel has begun transferring aid to the Gaza Strip seized on board a six-ship flotilla intercepted earlier this week, an Israeli official said Wednesday.

 

So far 10 truckloads of goods have been dispatched to the Krerem Shalom crossing point.

 

The goods transferred include medical equipment and wheel chairs, and some food, Major Guy Inbar told the German Press Agency dpa.

 

He added that the unpacking and inspection of the goods was not complete, since the aid had been loaded onto the ships in a haphazard manner.

 

Inbar said that the amount of equipment sent from the ships so far was far less than the amount Israel allows into the Strip on a daily basis.

 

Israeli naval commandos seized the six-ship flotilla early Monday morning, after the vessels refused an order to change course from the Gaza Strip to the Israeli port of Ashdod.

 

Nine foreign activists were killed in the raid on the boats.

 

Israel placed the Gaza Strip under blockade in June 2006, after militants based in the salient snatched an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid.

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Aaaand from the other direction.

 

 

Jun 2, 2010 1:44 am US/Pacific

Gazans Cross Border After Egypt Lifts Blockade

http://cbs5.com/wireapnational/Gazans.cross.border.2.1727338.html

ASHRAF SWEILAM, Associated Press Writer

 

RAFAH, Egypt (AP) ― Egyptian officials say more than 100 Gazans have crossed the border into Egypt after the government temporarily eased its blockade of the Palestinian territory over Israel's deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

 

The officials say two buses with 150 Palestinians crossed the border in the town of Rafah on Wednesday, including patients traveling for medical assistance abroad and those with foreign residency permits. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to discuss the subject with media.

 

A handful of people also crossed into Gaza at the same point, along with four trucks carrying tents, blankets and 13 power generators donated by Russia and Oman.

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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100602/twl-israel-compares-flotilla-raid-with-w-3fd0ae9.html

 

Israel Compares Flotilla Raid With WWII

 

 

Israel's ambassador to the US has compared the deadly raid on the Gaza aid flotilla with America's battles against the Germans in World War Two.

 

In an interview with Sky's American sister station Fox News, Michael Oren described the operation, in which at least nine people died, as "perfectly legal, perfectly humane - and very responsible".

 

"Israel has to make some hard choices sometimes," he stressed, "We live in a rough neighbourhood."

 

When questioned about the global condemnation of the violence and accusations of "state-sponsored piracy on the open seas", he denied there had been any breach of international law in raiding the ships.

 

"Israel acted in accord with international law," he said.

 

"Any state has the right to protect itself, certainly from a terrorist threat such as Hamas, including on the open seas.

 

"The US acted under similar international law when it fought the Germans and the Japanese in World War Two."

 

He reiterated that Israel would immediately deport activists seized from the six-ship flotilla.

 

Nearly 700 foreign nationals being held in Israeli jails are expected to be deported today and tomorrow.

 

Some 124 detainees from 12 Muslim nations were taken across the border into Jordan in the early hours of this morning.

 

It is thought they are from countries that do not have diplomatic ties with Israel.

 

A total of 42 Britons - including 11 people with dual nationality - are known to have been detained by security forces.

 

Foreign Secretary William Hague said they will be brought home as soon as possible. Some are already back in the UK.

 

Meanwhile, President Obama has offered his condolences to Turkey after four Turkish activists were confirmed to have died in the violence.

 

And Egypt has opened its border crossing with Gaza to allow aid to get through after signing a temporary agreement with Israel.

 

The Secretary General of the United Nations Ban Ki-Moon is holding meetings in New York to discuss the situation.

 

The UN Security Council has condemned the raid and called for a "prompt, impartial, credible, transparent" investigation.

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It may actually be true that they didn't contravene international law, believe it or not.

 

Blockading a country when in conflict is definitely accepted under IL and I think that boarding ships in International waters after they have been made aware that there is a blockade and warned to change course is legal if you can rationally discern that they were attempting to enter blockaded waters.

 

If this is the case, which I'm not 100% on, Israel may well not have breach IL by raiding in international waters.

 

That doesn't justify anything, I'm just addressing the issue of IL, nothing more.

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It may actually be true that they didn't contravene international law, believe it or not.

 

Blockading a country when in conflict is definitely accepted under IL and I think that boarding ships in International waters after they have been made aware that there is a blockade and warned to change course is legal if you can rationally discern that they were attempting to enter blockaded waters.

 

If this is the case, which I'm not 100% on, Israel may well not have breach IL by raiding in international waters.

 

That doesn't justify anything, I'm just addressing the issue of IL, nothing more.

 

yeah I saw an interview with an Israeli official who quoted the particular relevant passages of maritime law and it is true that the action of boarding vessels in international waters that are intent on breaking a blockade after due warning is legal.

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Not sure how a densely packed area would sustain low damage from a nuclear detonation. Any chance you could direct me to that report, please?

 

Lebel worries about the fact that “in the event of any bomb or other mass catastrophe, densely populated Bnei Brak will be a major victim. It is the least safe place in the country.” Due to the physical crowding – Tel Aviv has only a fourth of the density – the haredi city’s infrastructure is not suited to its population, he says, adding that the municipality and other authorities have ignored all civil-defense regulations. The tiny shelters that exist in older apartment buildings are populated by endless young couples and their children who can’t afford anything better. Even in newer buildings, the reinforced rooms were not built according to standard, insists Lebel, who has carefully investigated the matter.

 

“Bnei Brak is a black hole in terms of safety. In a nuclear attack, half of the 150,000 residents would be wiped out,” he claims, compared to an estimated 6,000 in Tel Aviv, 5,000 in Haifa and 700 in Jerusalem. The rabbis and residents say that no matter, “God will protect us.” The Home Front, Lebel continues, “is furious because they have been fooled.” Either half of Bnei Brak has to be rebuilt, or the population has to be dispersed to the Negev, Galilee and other parts of the country, he advises.

 

The engineer, who has many contacts in Israel’s government and military establishment, claims they are “not really worried” about the survival of the state if Iran dared to dispatch a nuclear bomb.

 

“Such an attack would cause limited physical damage,” Lebel contends, “and underground shelters and reinforced rooms would save most lives. While in public the leaders say they are very concerned, they say so for diplomatic reasons and because they fear an indirect consequence from a nuclear attack.” Such an attack would cause tens of thousands of elite hi-tech professionals and their companies to leave en bloc for other countries. In addition, foreign investors would be too scared to put money into Israel. This, says Lebel, “would leave a Third-World economy. That’s what is really worrying the leadership.”

 

Low is relative I guess. I'm not 100% sure where he got his numbers from.

http://www.jpost.com/HealthAndSci-Tech/InternetAndTechnology/Article.aspx?id=173387

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but I do think you are being a bit biased in the way you frame this issue.

In this case, yes, i am. I already told you the reason. And you are at a least a bit biased pro Israel.

I posted the pic of the Yemeni with the knife to try and show that there were some aggressors on board

That photo does not prove your claim. It's just some Yemenite guy who holds up his traditional dagger.

yet you seem to take that to the extreme and see it as me implying that all passengers are guilty instead of entertaining the possibility that there may have been aggressors on board the vessel with violent intent.

Well, if this wasn't your intend, i apologise.

I have argued that the Israeli soldiers were attacked with deadly force

before they even threatened people with deadly force and there is undeniable video evidence to back this up

Are you serious? The IDF commandos were unarmed as they approached to seize the boat(s)? Also don't forget that the IDF killed at least 10 and injured 60 others.

yet your response is that people were defending against piracy,

They were according to international law.

as if they weren't aware that the IDF intended to enforce a blockade on an area that is in conflict.

The intend of the flotilla was indeed to break that blockade in order to bring attention to that problem because - contrary to your claim - that blockade's legitimacy is very much debatable, to say the least. However, the blockade has no real relevance in this case since the incident happened in international waters.

I feel at this point you are either refusing to accept the obvious that there were some with an agenda of forcing a fatal confrontation,

You might be right that there were actually some turk provocateurs on board who had a different agenda than the peace activists. However, there is no evidence for this at the moment.

You seem to imbue these people with an innocent stupidity of what their actions would result in.

The peace activists were just hoping that, if the IDF decides to intervene, they would act like reasonable people. That was obviously naive.

That doesn't excuse the result but they sure as hell knew what would happen if they attacked special forces soldiers with deadly force.

The IDF attacked, not the other way around.

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On Sunday, Israeli naval forces intercepted the ships of a Turkish nongovernmental organization (NGO) delivering humanitarian supplies to Gaza.

FGM is an international organisation with members for example in the U.S., Germany, South Africa and even Israel. Prominent supporters include Noam Chomsky, Desmond Tutu and others.

 

Other than that, an interesting read although the bias and the "we-are-the-victims" message is obvious. Unsurprisingly, there's not a single word on the situation of the Palestinians in Gaza, illegal settlements in the Westbank etc. pp.

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It may actually be true that they didn't contravene international law, believe it or not.

1.) On high seas a flying flag indicates the home country of the boat, the boat itself counts as territory of that country.

2.) In order to enter a ship on high seas a person is required to have a formal approval of the captain. This includes military, police, border patrols etc.

3.) Entering a boat and/or hauling a boat without such an approval is called piracy

4.) All passengers and crew members have the right to defend themselves with whatever means if persons enter the ship without formal approval of the captain.

such action will be treatet as self-defense under international law

 

This is what a friend of mine, who is currently sailing in the Baltic Sea, told me.

 

5.) The incident happened 34 sea miles away from the Gaza coast. According to the Oslo treaty Israel is only allowed to control a strip of 10 sea miles off Gaza's coast.

 

Blockading a country when in conflict is definitely accepted under IL

Israel isn't officially in war with Palestine so wartime law is not applicable.

In peacetime, sanctions are accepted in shape of an U.N. resolution.

and I think that boarding ships in International waters after they have been made aware that there is a blockade and warned to change course is legal if you can rationally discern that they were attempting to enter blockaded waters.

The IDF should have waited till the boats entered Gaza's coastal waters. They did not due to to their animosity and ignorance towards the U.N. and international regulations in general.

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In this case, yes, i am. I already told you the reason. And you are at a least a bit biased pro Israel.

 

Pro Israel? Show me once where I have said Israel was in the right, what it did was acceptable or that I support their actions!! All I have done is explain the strategic situation from both sides. You are just so anti-Israel that you will not accept anything other than blinding condemnation.

 

I would argue that I have been totally impartial and have not passed judgement on anyone's actions other than whether the actions were strategically sound or unsound. Show me where I have done otherwise.

 

 

That photo does not prove your claim. It's just some Yemenite guy who holds up his traditional dagger.

 

Yes, and peaceful protesters always carry daggers. However, you are right, the picture doesn't prove there were provocateurs on board, I accept that.

 

 

 

Are you serious? The IDF commandos were unarmed as they approached to seize the boat(s)? Also don't forget that the IDF killed at least 10 and injured 60 others.

 

Have you watched the video footage?! The soldier's hands were still on the ropes as they were being attacked!! I hear that they only had paintball guns with CS gas at first but I am yet to se full proof of that. If that is true then the argument that the passengers were threatened with deadly force is completely bunk. Secondly, being armed or in possession of a weapon is not the same as threatening people with deadly force. If that were the case then every police officer in Australia would be threatening the whole country with deadly force every day. That is clearly not happening and I find that your argument that the IDF being armed equates to them threatening the passengers with deadly force is an exaggeration in order to suit your argument of the passengers being innocent of instigation.

 

The argument is that the IDF only killed people after they were attacked with deadly force. The limited amount of footage that I have seen certainly supports that claim. They were being attacked with metal bars about the head before they even had their weapons drawn.

 

Tell me you wouldn't shoot some one that was trying to smash your skull open.

 

 

They were according to international law.

 

Yeah, they were sailing in to a naval blockade protected by commandos but they were acting in defense of piracy. They intentionally provoked a military response, they then attacked the soldiers with deadly force and then complained that they got shot.

 

Can you not see the massive and obvious contradiction here. If they were peacefully protesting they would have let the soldiers board the boats, take them prisoner and then sat in the cells refusing to give name or nationality.

 

Instigating arrest and then attacking the arrestor with metal bars does not constitute peaceful protest in anyone's language.

 

 

The intend of the flotilla was indeed to break that blockade in order to bring attention to that problem because - contrary to your claim - that blockade's legitimacy is very much debatable, to say the least. However, the blockade has no real relevance in this case since the incident happened in international waters.

 

I think you need to review the law followed in protecting maritime blockades. From what I have read the Israeli action may have been legal (not so sure about the distance out, however the Israelis will argue that the distance doesn't matter as they had already express their intention of running the blockade) and that the law covering blockades takes precedent over common maritime law, as you have posted above.

 

Now I am not a lawyer so don't quote me on this as I am not sure myself. I am also not saying that they Israelis were justified, I am just commenting on whether their actions were legal or not.

 

 

You might be right that there were actually some turk provocateurs on board who had a different agenda than the peace activists. However, there is no evidence for this at the moment.

 

Other than the fact that they attacked the soldiers before the soldiers raised their weapons against them. You can't attack the arrestors and still call yourself a peaceful protest, dude. I think you're going to have to admit that there were some provocateurs on that vessel.

 

 

The peace activists were just hoping that, if the IDF decides to intervene, they would act like reasonable people. That was obviously naive.

 

Bit hard to reason with some one as you are being hit in the head with a metal bar, dude.

 

The IDF attacked, not the other way around.

Have you actually watched the video?!!

 

The IDF boarded the boat, that is not attacking anyone. It may be trespassing but it is not an attack on anyone.

 

The soldiers were attacked by the passengers whilst they were still hanging on to the ropes!

 

They boarded the boat to take control of it which was exactly what the flotilla was aiming to happen. The footage shows, without any doubt at all, that they were attacked as soon as they boarded the boat and sometimes even before their boots hit the deck.

 

Watch the footage, mate. The passengers CLEARLY attacked the soldiers first well before any of them had even drawn their weapons, let alone pointed or fired them at anyone. Hardly what you'd call peaceful protest.

 

 

Really don't know how long I can keep this up.

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Israel isn't officially in war with Palestine so wartime law is not applicable.

 

Gaza isn't a country meaning that you can't "officially" be at war with them. However, there are rockets and mortars crossing daily in to Israel from Gaza and there are Palestinian homes destroyed by ISraeli bulldozers and Gazans killed by Israelis on an almost daily basis. So, I think you could agree that both people live under a low level conflict/war like condition, yes?

 

The IDF should have waited till the boats entered Gaza's coastal waters. They did not due to to their animosity and ignorance towards the U.N. and international regulations in general.

 

No my angry and spiteful friend, they did not raid the boats outside of the territorial waters with ignorance and hate, no matter how much you want to believe that.

 

As I said above, they boarded that far out because it was night. If they waited until day time they loose tactical advantage (well that's the theory, results show they never had the tactical advantage at all) and if they wait until they are in Gaza waters then they have to contend with all the Gazan boats getting involved as well and that would surely mean risk to more life and limb. It was a tactical decision.

 

If yo think that any special forces planning is ever based on ignorance and animosity I would suggest that it may be you that is the ignorant one.

 

I addressed the law issue above.

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Wasn't there evidence to suggest that Israel was already shooting at the boat prior to even fast-roping onto the deck? I wouldn't doubt there is a lot of provocateuring going on here on both sides, but I think the blockade in general is wrong. They just make claims that it is in place for security reasons against terrorism, but that sounds ridiculous to me especially when it is oppressing peaceful average Palestinians who just want freedom and security themselves. Whatever the case is, I think we need to break this unholy alliance with Israeli Zionists and Christian-Zionists who are continuing to put the U.S in the middle of these conflicts, and pretty much putting both states (U.S / Israel) in danger. They aren't representative of the average peace loving American, or Israeli.

 

Here is an eyewitness account:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf7tl0ozkrQ&feature=player_embedded

 

Firing and assaulting the Flotilla before they even landed on board and were attacked with pipes, etc.

This is eye-witness testimony so...

 

Here is a video of somehow a stun grenade being thrown at the Israeli military, so it is a bit suspicious as to what was actually no board that Flotilla.

 

"In footage captured on the Mavi Marmara, activists are seen attacking the soldiers with a stun grenade, a box of plates, and water hoses as the soldiers attempt to board the ship. the activists are also waiving around metal rods and chains later used to attack the soldiers with. The IDF soldiers were armed with paint ball guns (used for riot dispersal) and pistols which they were ordered to use only as a last resort. "

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261

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Zig: I think it's almost War O'Clock.

 

yea... unfortunately you're probably right. christo knows more about what is happening geo-politically than i do, but in my opinion... which is amateur at best, doesn't look good. i'd say we're on the verge of some major conflicts if the wrong steps are taken.

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Wasn't there evidence to suggest that Israel was already shooting at the boat prior to even fast-roping onto the deck? I wouldn't doubt there is a lot of provocateuring going on here on both sides, but I think the blockade in general is wrong. They just make claims that it is in place for security reasons against terrorism, but that sounds ridiculous to me especially when it is oppressing peaceful average Palestinians who just want freedom and security themselves. Whatever the case is, I think we need to break this unholy alliance with Israeli Zionists and Christian-Zionists who are continuing to put the U.S in the middle of these conflicts, and pretty much putting both states (U.S / Israel) in danger. They aren't representative of the average peace loving American, or Israeli.

 

 

As for whether the blockade is morally wrong, I won't go there myself as it's not my game. I'll only comment on the strategic nature of things. I wouldn't know that the average Gazan is peaceful that only want peace for themselves as there is a massive amount of anti-Israeli feeling in that area and massive indoctrination of children as they grow up. Whether ISrael bears original responsibility for that anger, I cannot say however it is totally conceivable and I've heard many good arguments to support that claim and I don't think one would have too much trouble in finding examples where Israeli actions have had a negative effect on their security.

 

Then you look at the Jewish history and their geography and you can also have some empathy as to how they have become so aggressive and seemingly ignorant of any one else's priorities but their own. One line really caught my attention a while back that was said by a Jew that I know who works in the area of security, "If the first Jews that the Nazis took away shot those Nazi bastards they would have thought twice about trying again". Keep that in mind when you view Israel and remember that there are still many people in Israel that survived the concentration camps. Good chance that in a few generations people will be saying "Keep in mind that there are still some Palestinians alive that lived in Gaza under Israeli occupation and remember that when you see how aggressive they are now". When you look at the Palestinian position, both politically and geographically, they are drawn in to using tactics and strategies of asymmetric warfare that both attracts sympathy and revulsion at the same time.

 

The whole thing is like a game where everyone is competing to lose the least rather than win the most.

 

 

 

 

As for war oclock, I don't think so. However there are some pretty massive shifts going on in the region and that always raises the risk that shit will spiral and dudes will die.

 

We can only hope that cooler heads will prevail.

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As for whether the blockade is morally wrong, I won't go there myself as it's not my game. I'll only comment on the strategic nature of things. I wouldn't know that the average Gazan is peaceful that only want peace for themselves as there is a massive amount of anti-Israeli feeling in that area and massive indoctrination of children as they grow up. Whether ISrael bears original responsibility for that anger, I cannot say however it is totally conceivable and I've heard many good arguments to support that claim and I don't think one would have too much trouble in finding examples where Israeli actions have had a negative effect on their security.

 

Then you look at the Jewish history and their geography and you can also have some empathy as to how they have become so aggressive and seemingly ignorant of any one else's priorities but their own. One line really caught my attention a while back that was said by a Jew that I know who works in the area of security, "If the first Jews that the Nazis took away shot those Nazi bastards they would have thought twice about trying again". Keep that in mind when you view Israel and remember that there are still many people in Israel that survived the concentration camps. Good chance that in a few generations people will be saying "Keep in mind that there are still some Palestinians alive that lived in Gaza under Israeli occupation and remember that when you see how aggressive they are now". When you look at the Palestinian position, both politically and geographically, they are drawn in to using tactics and strategies of asymmetric warfare that both attracts sympathy and revulsion at the same time.

 

The whole thing is like a game where everyone is competing to lose the least rather than win the most.

 

 

 

 

As for war oclock, I don't think so. However there are some pretty massive shifts going on in the region and that always raises the risk that shit will spiral and dudes will die.

 

We can only hope that cooler heads will prevail.

 

 

 

That cash that was onboard the boat is said to have come from Iran. Seems that Iran is using Turkey as a proxy.

 

I dunno.

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I wouldn't doubt there is a lot of provocateuring going on here on both sides, but I think the blockade in general is wrong. They just make claims that it is in place for security reasons against terrorism, but that sounds ridiculous to me especially when it is oppressing peaceful average Palestinians who just want freedom and security themselves.

It's not just posturing, it's for safety reasons too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karine_A_Affair

 

I do think its unfortunate that Gazan civilians get caught up in this political mess though.

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A seemingly objective observer:

 

 

 

 

AP INTERVIEW: Turkish aid group had terror ties

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/02/AR2010060203561_pf.html

 

6.2.10

 

PARIS -- The Turkish Islamic charity behind a flotilla of aid ships that was raided by Israeli forces on its way to Gaza had ties to terrorism networks, including a 1999 al-Qaida plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, France's former top anti-terrorism judge said Wednesday.

The Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Bruguiere, who led the French judiciary's counterterrorism unit for nearly two decades before retiring in 2007, didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s.

"They were basically helping al-Qaida when (Osama) bin Laden started to want to target U.S. soil," he said.

Some members of an international terrorism cell known as the Fateh Kamel network then worked at the IHH, he said. Kamel, an Algerian-Canadian dual national, had ties to the nascent al-Qaida, Bruguiere said.

Among Kamel's followers was Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian who was arrested in the U.S. state of Washington in December 1999 on his way to bomb Los Angeles International Airport as part of an al-Qaida plot.

"IHH had a role in the organization that led to the plot," Bruguiere said, reiterating sworn testimony he made in a U.S. Federal Court during Ressam's trial. Ressam is serving a 22-year prison sentence.

Bruguiere issued an international warrant for Kamel, Ressam's former mentor, who was extradited from Jordan to France in 1999 and sentenced to eight years in prison on terror-related charges.

IHH vehemently denies ties to radical groups. The group is not among some 45 groups listed as terrorists by the U.S. State Department's Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism. Nine people on board the IHH flotilla were killed by Israeli forces on Monday.

"We are a legal organization," IHH board member Omer Faruk Korkmaz said late Wednesday in response to Bruguiere's statements. "We have nothing to do with any illegal organization," he said.

"We don't know Ahmed Ressam or Fateh Kamel," Korkmaz said. "We don't approve of the actions of any terrorist organization in the world."

French investigators found in the 1990s that "several members of Fateh Kamel's network worked at the IHH as a cover," Bruguiere said. "It was too systematic and too widespread for the NGO (non-governmental organization) not to know" their real goal, he said.

The former judge, renowned for tracking down convicted terrorist Carlos the Jackal, said he didn't believe the IHH could have been infiltrated by terrorists without its knowledge.

"It's hard to prove, but all elements of the investigation showed that part of the NGO served to hide jihad-type activities," Bruguiere said. "I'm convinced this was a clear strategy, known by IHH."

The judge said he was personally involved in a raid with French and Turkish police at IHH headquarters in Istanbul in 1998, where they found weapons, false documents and other "incriminating" material.

"It was clearly proven that some of the NGO's work was not charity, it was to provide a facade for moving funds, weapons and mujahedeen to and from Bosnia and Afghanistan" - areas focused on by Islamic militants then.

In Istanbul, Korkmaz, of IHH, confirmed the late '90s police raid but denied that any weapons were found and said there was no evidence found of links to militancy.

Bruguiere would not specify how many members of Kamel's terror cell worked at IHH or give their names, but he said one of the suspects, a man from Bosnia, appeared in another terror-related case as recently as 2005 - though there was no indication at the time that the man still had ties to IHH.

Elements within the charity supported jihadi operations in the 1990s, Bruguiere said, before adding: "I don't know whether they continued to do so" more recently.

"But it seemed clear at the time that it was thanks to a measure of political backing within the Turkish government that it (IHH) could continue to operate," despite the strong suspicions against it, Bruguiere said.

Bruguiere retired from the judiciary in 2007 when he took part in an election to become a lawmaker in the conservative party of French President Nicolas Sarkozy. He lost his bid.

Bruguiere, 67, is now the coordinator for the European Union in a terrorism finance tracking program jointly run with the United States.

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