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What is wrong with the New World Order. The Global Government Debate Thread


R@ndomH3ro

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Death of the USD? That's a little over dramatic, don't you think? Having more than one reserve currency is called competition, competition is what made the US strong in a lot of senses. I don't see why you immediately jump to doom and gloom just because some one suggests something.

 

Monetary competition in international markets is definitely something I am personally for, that's not the point. Doom and Gloom? Where is doom and gloom in my reply? If anyone is doom and gloom it's Soros and others claiming that the dollar's death is desirable. How am I doom and gloom for calling them on their own statements?

 

So your vast lead in technology means nothing. The US navy that could defeat all other navies combined means nothing. Your massive lead over everyone else in the space race means nothing. The simple bulk and depth of your economy means nothing. The geography of the US (oceans on either side creating a buffer, river systems all over the country making transport of goods super cheap, etc.) means nothing. The US alliance system being the largest and most powerful in the world means nothing.The fact that other nations are buying US debt en masse means nothing (shit, even Iran dumped its Euros for USD a week ago!). The suggestion that the USD shouldn't be the one and only global standard makes all the other stuff irrelevant, you think?

 

Yea, I do think it's irrelevant. Our strong military doesn't even operate in the interest of the American public, our level of intelligence that helped us excel in the space race has diminished, and we are probably one of the most decadent and stupid nations on earth right now. Are you seriously talking about our geographic location making us great for import/export? If corporations didn't do everything they could in this country to cut corners and earn a profit that would probably be a great thing. Iran was dumping USD en masse before they were dumping the Euros, they will probably do it again. Plenty of other countries are dumping our debt as well, and please tell me what is so great about having foreign countries buying our debt anyway? I don't want to be indebted to these corrupt nations to begin with. I'm already in debt to my own corrupt nation.

 

That's one hell of a claim your making there and I think it neglects to take account for many other aspects of power.

 

I don't think so.

 

Whilst all these things are admirable pursuits they are irrelevant when it comes to power. The US could be an industrialised military dictatorship and it could still have power over all other countries. These things that you mention are social values and are not intrinsic elements of power. And hell, people have been saying this shit for almost 100 years now and the US has only gone on to become stronger. I swear US citz are the most pessimistic and sore winners I've ever come across.

 

Ok, but the US being an industrialized military dictatorship is, and having all of this "power", is not something I'm looking at and thinking, "Well, at least we're the ones in control." No. I'm thinking, why has my nation fallen to the same type of corruption and power mongering that this very same nation viciously and passionately fought against at it's foundations? It's not pessimistic to tell someone they have cancer, it can be a very encouraging moment in their life to fix things and make it better.

 

Just because some one has a book in his hand doesn't mean he's read it. Just because some one has read a book doesn't mean he agrees with it. Hell, I've read that book and I put it down 2/3rds of the way in to it. All respect to Fareed as he's a brilliant man, but that book really sucked and was quite superficial. Maybe Obama thought the same thing. Have you heard him say that he's read it and what he thinks about it or are you just drawing conclusions based on a photo of him holding it? Honest question, not rhetorical.

 

That's true, can't argue with you. Doesn't mean he isn't surrounded by people who are though. Doesn't mean that these aren't the ideas and concepts floating around in the halls of the U.N and other international bureaucracy too. Don't get me wrong, it's great for the rest of the world to rise up around America, I support that, but this whole notion that America is so bad and needs to pay for everything it's done (meaning me, my future generations paying off debt, etc.) is preposterous.

 

Not necessarily, he is saying that China should have a stake in the world order, as in that it isn't solely dictated by the US. And the US does do that to a large degree. The US economy and military strength allows the US to put pressure on countries so they don't act against US interest. There are many examples of that, the UN resolution passed against Iran the other day is a good example. However you have to remember a lot of other countries agree with the US position on many things and profit from it. Hell, China fucking LOVES the US and without the US navy keeping all the critical water ways of the world open (seuz, Hormuz, Malaka, etc.) China would have had to have spent a SHIT load more money on its navy to protect its import routes for energy and raw materials and export routes for its products going to market. If China had to protect its own seal lanes not only would it not have that money to spend on industrial and domestic development but China would also then have a much stronger navy that could project power to places where the US has specific interests.

 

So just because something is in the US interest it doesn't by default mean it is against everyone else's interest. The US navey keeping open the Malaka Straits benefits Japan, DPRK, ROK, Russia, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Malasia, Cambodia, Indonesia, Singapore, Australia and a bunch of small PAcific islands. That's just one small element and because of that since WW2 these countries have all dramatically increased development and GDP per capita. The US system, for all its flaws and ugliness has been largely responsible for increasing development for the majority of the world. Trade means industry, industry means employment, employment means the chance to give your kids a better shot at life than you had. The only country in that list above who has gone southward is DPRK and that is because they have tried to go against the system. When China went against the system from 1949-80 they also went horribly backwards. Since then they have opened up and slowly readjusted in to the system and look, in just 30 years now people are saying that they will challenge the US.

 

So when you say that the US has done fucked up things, I wouldn't disagree but you must also balance that against the ways in which it has benefited the world.

 

I can't really debate you much here, you have solid information as always. Good points, all I would really say is that globalists and elitists who are part of and have profited off of the corruption of the U.S have been using and manipulating the strength of the U.S for decades now, for political purposes. If you lived in the U.S you would know just by watching the news every day just how much resentment there is towards the establishment due to this, and how power is beginning to shift. Many globalist policies and legislation that is going through Washington is having a very hard time being passed right now, and because of that I think these elitists and globalists are shifting over to China as their model government. If you can understand what I'm trying to say, I can't really explain it as elegantly as you.

 

Well yeah, you as a US cit of course should want your currency to remain the only standard, it's all about controlling power. But keep in mind that the IMF is a US controlled global system set up at Bretton Woods. So this new system that people are talking about isn't actually a NEW SYSTEM as such. It's just a redistribution of power within the already existing structure, that's all.

 

Sure but just because it was U.S created and established doesn't mean anything to me. The Federal Reserve was U.S established and I feel the same way about that as I do about the IMF. It's all just corrupt central banks owned by elitists to me. And, I'm certainly not looking forward to paying them taxes.

 

 

I'd like to see you guys talk more about the deeper NWO shit, but I guess I'm the only one here that even pays attention to it. :D

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Monetary competition in international markets is definitely something I am personally for, that's not the point. Doom and Gloom? Where is doom and gloom in my reply? If anyone is doom and gloom it's Soros and others claiming that the dollar's death is desirable. How am I doom and gloom for calling them on their own statements?

 

Soros said orderly decline, you said death of the USD. Soros did not say that the USD needs to/is going to die.

 

Yea, I do think it's irrelevant. Our strong military doesn't even operate in the interest of the American public

 

They've denied any other nation the ability to invade the US for 60 years now, I'd say that's in the public interest, yeah? Without trying to sound condescending, because I'm sure there are things you have an education in that I don't understand either, but I don't think you understand geopolitical strategy, balancing, off shore balancing, spoiling, etc. Until you know what these are and can relate US behaviour to them (meaning you can accurately evaluate US performance) you can't really have a true picture of what the US does. Put it this way, they don't invade for oil (alone), they don't invade because some one tried to kill some one's daddy, they didn't care if WMDs were there or not. They care about precluding the ability of any nation to become a regional power and affecting US interests.

 

our level of intelligence that helped us excel in the space race has diminished

 

Still 100 miles ahead of everyone else and still control space. The US could decline another 50% and still be in that position. You realise that there are only 3 nations that have ever put a human in to space and one of those nations only achieved that 2 years ago when the US did it 50 years ago. The only other competitor is Russia and they within weeks of coming hat in hand to the US for investment and technology. I think you might be missing how far out in front the US is here.

 

and no, your intelligence hasn't diminished at all, you've decreased your budget.

 

 

And we are probably one of the most decadent and stupid nations on earth right now.

 

Decadence is irrelevant.

 

Stupid? Really??!! you need to check out which country has been at the forefront of medical advancement for the last 50 years, and still is. Who has the most patents, spends the most on R&D, who is the most technologically advanced in computer, telecom, quantum sciences, etc....

 

 

Are you seriously talking about our geographic location making us great for import/export?

 

No, I said that you have two oceans protecting your flanks from invasion and you have internal waterways making transport cheap.

 

If corporations didn't do everything they could in this country to cut corners and earn a profit that would probably be a great thing. Iran was dumping USD en masse before they were dumping the Euros, they will probably do it again. Plenty of other countries are dumping our debt as well,

 

Could you show me some evidence to back that up, please?

 

and please tell me what is so great about having foreign countries buying our debt anyway? I don't want to be indebted to these corrupt nations to begin with.

 

China needs to buy your debt to fund you buying their products, China is actually dependent on you, not the other way around like everyone mistakenly thinks. I'll give you an analogy; you owe me $100, if you don't pay me back, I'm going to shoot you in the head. You owe me a million dollars I'm going to do everything to keep you alive because if you die or are broke, I'll never see my money and then I'm broke too. To put it bluntly; owe me 100 bucks and I got you by the balls. Owe me a million bucks and you got me by the balls. Perfect example is Greece. You think Germany wants to bail them out right now? Of course not. But if Greece defaults, the Euro is in deep shit and that means Germany loses its power. Greece has Germany by the balls because Germany cannot afford to let Greece default.

 

Nations buying your debt means that they know that your economy is so strong that they are willing to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in it. So, is there something you know about the US economy that central banks all around the world don't?

 

 

Ok, but the US being an industrialized military dictatorship is, and having all of this "power", is not something I'm looking at and thinking, "Well, at least we're the ones in control." No. I'm thinking, why has my nation fallen to the same type of corruption and power mongering that this very same nation viciously and passionately fought against at it's foundations? It's not pessimistic to tell someone they have cancer, it can be a very encouraging moment in their life to fix things and make it better.

 

Sure, and it's admirable that you care about the values of your nation but that is a discussion irrelevant when it comes to evaluating national power.

 

 

That's true, can't argue with you. Doesn't mean he isn't surrounded by people who are though. Doesn't mean that these aren't the ideas and concepts floating around in the halls of the U.N and other international bureaucracy too. Don't get me wrong, it's great for the rest of the world to rise up around America, I support that, but this whole notion that America is so bad and needs to pay for everything it's done (meaning me, my future generations paying off debt, etc.) is preposterous.

 

Yeah, we can't draw anything from a simple pic. Have you read the book? You realise that it doesn't say anything about the US paying for what it has done, or anything like that, right? It's just discussing redistribution of power based on econ, tech, demography, geography, etc., and gets all excited over India..., almost irrationally so for my liking.

 

Also, dude, no one is "rising up against America", maybe except for Iran and Venezuela. China is competing economically, as is normal, Russia is trying to survive and Pakistan is a (very dodgy) partner and you are making a partner of India to balance the region. Countries don't "rise up against" each other mate, they compete for a greater share of power based on economics, military might and Joseph Nye would have us believe soft power as well.

 

 

 

I can't really debate you much here, you have solid information as always. Good points, all I would really say is that globalists and elitists who are part of and have profited off of the corruption of the U.S have been using and manipulating the strength of the U.S for decades now, for political purposes.

 

Quick question, what is the use of strength if you don't use and manipulate it for benefit?

 

 

If you lived in the U.S you would know just by watching the news every day just how much resentment there is towards the establishment due to this, and how power is beginning to shift. Many globalist policies and legislation that is going through Washington is having a very hard time being passed right now, and because of that I think these elitists and globalists are shifting over to China as their model government. If you can understand what I'm trying to say, I can't really explain it as elegantly as you.

 

Yeah, sorry mate, not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

 

 

Sure but just because it was U.S created and established doesn't mean anything to me. The Federal Reserve was U.S established and I feel the same way about that as I do about the IMF. It's all just corrupt central banks owned by elitists to me. And, I'm certainly not looking forward to paying them taxes.

 

Main point was that the system isn't new, there is just the possibility of a readjustment of where people rank in the system.

 

 

 

I'd like to see you guys talk more about the deeper NWO shit, but I guess I'm the only one here that even pays attention to it. :D

 

The whole Bildeberg and trilateral group thing, whilst not controlling the world, may be powerful and may try hard to guide many things in many ways. But the kind of "research" that I have been sent to look at on this stuff is honestly pretty shocking in quality and really hard to accept as credible. And to look in to something like this yourself is a really big thing that requires significant resources such as time, money, access to people and so on that I'm not inclined to expend. The NWO that is referred to when we see all those people talking at the start of that movie is something that I already know about, lived through and is a significant part of what I studied and now do for a job. So anyone trying to convince me that it is anything more than people talking about the redistribution of national power in the global system from a bipolar to a unipolar structure simply doesn't get a start because it's something I know and understand quite intimately. It's like some one trying to convince you that Microsoft is an Italian clothing company. You just know 100% that it isn't true.

 

And as for the UN(SC), wow, the most dysfunctional organisation in the world. Sorry, unfortunately I also know the reality of that total failure and it's next to impossible seeing that thing doing anything that could be called effective!

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This is a decent little summary of one of the reasons for the desired shift away from the dollar in some parts of the world and also an indication of how far we are away from it actually happening. China has the third largest economy probably to be the second largest after the US by the end of this year. However, you can't even do business in the Yuan outside of China's borders........, digest that for a while.

 

 

 

China Acts to Settle More Deals in Yuan

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704289504575312560305201680.html?mod=WSJASIA_hps_LEFTTopWhatNews

 

 

 

 

 

By JASON DEAN And AARON BACK

 

BEIJING—China's government will expand a trial program for settling trade deals in yuan to most of the country, state media reported, in an effort to accelerate the internationalization of the Chinese currency after a slow start.

 

Trade deals by companies in China have typically been done in dollars or other foreign currencies. The yuan-settlement program, started last July, allowed companies in Shanghai and the southern province of Guangdong to use yuan instead when trading with companies based in Hong Kong, Macau and a handful of foreign countries.

 

 

The U.S. Treasury Department had no comment on the expansion of the yuan-settlement program.On Thursday, the state-run Xinhua news agency said the State Council, or China's cabinet, approved a plan to expand that program to a total of 20 provinces and municipalities. The Xinhua report cited Li Dongrong, an assistant governor of the People's Bank of China, the country's central bank.

 

The effort to promote the yuan for trade deals is part of China's push to gradually make its currency more important internationally, and reduce its reliance on the dollar. Chinese officials have said the global economy is too reliant on the dollar, which they say leads to outsize impact from U.S. economic policy on China and other countries. Beijing has expressed particular concern that U.S. deficits could lead to inflation that weakens the value of the dollar, thereby hurting China's enormous holdings of dollar assets.

 

Still, the yuan-settlement trial has gotten off to a slow start, and it's unclear how significant an impact expanding the number of Chinese regions involved might have. Xinhua said the total value of yuan-based transactions from July 2009 through May this year was 44.55 billion yuan, or about $6.5 billion. By comparison, the total value of China's exports and imports in the first five months of this year alone was $1.1 trillion.

 

The trial program has been hindered by a slew of complicated regulations that vary by location, and by the fact that many international companies are reluctant to hold the Chinese currency because of its limited utility outside China. By far the biggest impediment to the yuan's internationalization is the Chinese government's unwillingness to make it fully convertible, a policy that Beijing has shown little willingness to change soon.

 

Chinese officials frequently talk about the need for a more internationally used yuan, but they also acknowledge it won't rival the dollar any time soon. Speaking at a seminar in Taiwan on Thursday, Dai Xianglong, a former central bank governor who now heads China's national pension fund, said "The U.S. dollar will [retain] its dominance, but in the long term, it has a tendency to depreciation," according to Xinhua. Meanwhile, Mr. Dai said, the yuan and other currencies of emerging economies will eventually become international currencies.

 

Though it remains a distant goal, settling a significant portion of its trade in its own currency could have a number of advantages for China. It would reduce currency risks for Chinese exporters, who pay much of their costs in yuan but invoice in dollars or other foreign denominations. That issue has been an increasing concern to China's government given recent market volatility that has pushed the euro's value down sharply. Europe is China's biggest trading partner.

 

Using yuan for trade settlement could also reduce China's accumulation of foreign-exchange reserves, which the central bank now gets largely from buying dollars from exporters. The reserves have given China international clout as an investor but also created headaches.

 

Thursday's Xinhua report on the expansion of the trade program didn't specify which regions will be included, except to say that the northeastern province of Heilongjiang would be among them. But 20 would cover most of mainland China, which has 31 province-level regions.

 

Mr. Li said the State Council is likely to issue detailed rules on the extension of the yuan-settlement program in the near term, Xinhua reported.

 

Write to Jason Dean at jason.dean@wsj.com and Aaron Back at aaron.back@dowjones.com

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Russia Will Lead Effort to Found `New World Economic Order,' Medvedev Says

 

http://preview.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-18/russia-to-drive-new-world-economic-order-medvedev-tells-global-leaders.html

 

Russia will help lead efforts to recast the global economic hierarchy as the world emerges from the financial crisis, President Dmitry Medvedev said.

 

“We really live at a unique time, and we should use it to build a modern, prosperous and strong Russia, a Russia that will be a co-founder of the new world economic order,” Medvedev said at the annual St. Petersburg International Economic Forum today.

 

Russia will use tax incentives and other free-market economic policies to turn the country into a destination for innovators from around the world, Medvedev told an audience including Citigroup Inc. Chief Executive Officer Vikram Pandit and French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde.

 

Medvedev, in the third year of his presidency, is promoting modernization to transform Russia from an oil-and-gas economy into a magnet for high technology. Its reliance on natural resources exacerbated the steepest contraction among major emerging markets last year, when the economy shrank a record 7.9 percent.

 

The government will abolish taxes on capital gains from long-term direct investments starting next year, seeking to lure funds to reduce the economy’s energy dependence and subdue speculative capital, Medvedev said.

 

Gold Prices Heading For Record Highs

 

http://infowars.net/articles/june2010/170610Gold.htm

 

Gold futures surged toward record highs Thursday as the stock market and the U.S. economy continued to flounder, leaving investors seeking a safe haven in hard assets.

 

Gold for August delivery rose $14.40, or 1.2%, to $1,245 an ounce on the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange.

 

A weaker dollar was a contributing factor, with the ICE Futures U.S. Dollar Index down 0.4%, its lowest level in almost four weeks, and the euro up 0.6% against the dollar.

 

The jump also came in the wake of news that U.S. consumer prices posted their largest fall in nearly 1-1/2 years in May.

 

In addition the number of people filing for jobless benefits in the United States rose by 12,000 to 472,000 in the week ended June 12. Forecasters had predicted that claims would fall by 6,000.

 

The surge represents the largest daily rise in a week for gold, a rise within 1% of its all-time record high of $1,254 an ounce.

 

Despite the euro having somewhat rebounded recently, gold has held strong above $1,200, indicating a further detachment from movements in the currency markets.

 

New jobless claims up sharply as layoffs persist

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gNiyJ905Ho0Ur96V2TQhsBX19lGwD9GDAVMO0

 

WASHINGTON — The number of people filing new claims for jobless benefits jumped last week after three straight declines, another sign that the pace of layoffs has not slowed.

Initial claims for jobless benefits rose by 12,000 to a seasonally adjusted 472,000, the Labor Department said Thursday. It was the highest level in a month and overshadowed a report that showed consumer prices remain essentially flat.

The rise in jobless claims highlighted concerns about the economic rebound — especially after a report earlier this week said home construction plunged in May after government tax credits expired.

If layoffs persist, there's a concern that the June employment numbers may show a decline in private-sector jobs after five straight months of gains, said Jennifer Lee, an economist with BMO Capital Markets.

"We've definitely seen the economic recovery hit a wall," Lee said.

 

Consumer Price Drop Squeezes Profits

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704289504575312950299049246.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

 

In what is good news for shoppers but bad news for many companies, U.S. consumer prices fell 0.2% last month from April, even as commodity prices from metal to fuel to food remain higher than they were a year ago.

 

The result: Many companies are finding their profit margins squeezed.

 

 

The Labor Department Thursday said that excluding volatile food and energy prices, consumer prices rose a modest 0.1% in May. Compared to a year ago, prices, excluding food and energy, have risen only 0.9%, the smallest increase since 1966.

 

Such a scenario should buoy weary consumers especially at a time of high unemployment and worries about the turmoil in Europe. But it puts many companies in a bind as they digest rising wholesale prices, which push up their production and operating costs. Many companies say they are reluctant to pass price increases to consumers who are still jittery from the recession.

 

Cambridge professor Nicholas Boyle - Only Global Governance Can Save Us From A Century Of Chaos

 

http://www.prisonplanet.com/professor-only-global-governance-can-save-us-from-a-century-of-chaos.html

 

A major event that takes place in 2014 will plunge the world into a crisis that will characterize the rest of the century, according to Cambridge professor Nicholas Boyle, and only the introduction of global governance can save humanity from an era of poverty and violence.

“A ‘Doomsday’ moment will take place in 2014 – and will determine whether the 21st century is full of violence and poverty or will be peaceful and prosperous, according to a Cambridge University professor,” reports the Daily Mail.

“In the last 500 years there has been a cataclysmic ‘Great Event’ of international significance at the start of each century, he claims. Occurring in the middle of the second decade of each century, they include events which sparked wars, religious conflict and brought peace.”

In order to “fight climate change,” which as the Climategate scandal highlighted, is nothing more than a contrived fraud exaggerated and exploited by the elite in an effort to plunder the taxpayer and impose draconian rules and regulations on our day to day existence, as well as to solve the financial crisis (also a creation of the elite), Boyle states that peace and security can only be guaranteed if an “effective system of global governance is introduced” to replace nation states.

Boyle’s warning that only global governance run by by an enlightened elite can rescue the planet from turmoil is a familiar talking point put out by the establishment to hoodwink people into meekly accepting the end of national sovereignty as an inevitable process, a natural progression that they have no power to stop.

 

Greenspan: We're In Danger Of Being The Next Greece!

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/greenspan-were-in-danger-of-being-the-next-greece-2010-6#ixzz0rEl96REg

 

Former Fed Chair Alan Greenspan has an op-ed in the WSJ arguing that the runaway Federal Deficit threatens to turn the US into the next Greece.

 

He doesn't actually think that the US debt bears any credit risk, due to our ability to print at will, but that there is a substantial risk that borrowing costs will soar.

 

Of course, market participants are aware of our towering deficit, and yet yields continue their long march lower, so that's kind of problematic to his world view.

 

Says Greenspan: "This is regrettable, because it is fostering a sense of complacency that can have dire consequences."

 

Yet, he argues, not all market signals are so benign:

 

In the wake of recent massive budget deficits, the difference between the 10-year swap rate and 10-year Treasury note yield (the swap spread) declined to an unprecedented negative 13 basis points this March from a positive 77 basis points in September 2008. This indicated that investors were requiring the U.S. Treasury to pay an interest rate higher than rates that prevailed on comparable maturity private swaps.

 

Obama: 'To rebuild America's economy, rebuild America'

 

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2010/06/obama-if-were-going-to-rebuild-americas-economy-rebuild-america/1

 

President Obama just finished speaking to an audience in Columbus, Ohio about the economic stimulus plan. The event kicks off what the White House is dubbing "The Summer of Recovery," a major push to highlight the results of the president's $787 billion stimulus plan -- and to make the case for more spending to goose the economy.

 

The president did that in Ohio, arguing that projects like the road construction he came to see in downtown Columbus are investments that will pay off in the long run.

 

At the beginning of his address, the president acknowledged two Democratic candidates in hot Ohio races: Gov. Ted Strickland, who is running for re-election against former Republican congressman John Kasich, and Lt. Gov. Lee Fisher, who is competing with former Republican congressman Rob Portman for Senate.

 

Small companies not pulling out of recession same way as larger corporations

 

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jun/18/small-companies-not-pulling-out-recession-same-way/

 

Karen Mills, administrator of the U.S. Small Business Administration, told members of the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce last week that although the economy is recovering, small businesses are not rebounding like larger companies.

 

“I am seeing an economy that is coming back much more slowly for small business than big business,” said Mills, who spoke June 8 at a chamber luncheon at the Four Seasons. “Small businesses have suffered much more in the credit crunch.”

 

Las Vegas is an important small-business community that has been especially hard hit, Mills said. Helping them is important because 65 percent of the jobs created in the country will come from small business, she said.

 

“If we are going to come out of this recession and continue this path to recovery and if we are going to be competitive for a long time in this global economy, it is because we have small businesses that are healthy and vibrant and growing,” Mills said. “It is not the government that is going to be creating jobs that lead us out of this recovery. It is small business, and it is our job to give you the tools you need to do it.”

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lot of articles there... everything I linked to is related to the economy in some way. mostly the American economy, but some are international. Obama is gearing up for a "Recovery Summer" now, claiming that a double dip recession is out of the question and that this summer we will see a full recovery in the American economy. The situation with BP is also becoming an opportunity to push forward a carbon tax, which would kick start their new economic world order...

 

They claim this is a recovery yet, unemployment is still rising, gold is still skyrocketing, the dollar is still falling, we have a 21st century breadline with how many people in America are now on food stamps, the threat of complete collapse is still there, the only way to fix it is to rebuild it but the people who broke it want to be in charge of rebuilding it and give themselves even more authority and control, and the only people recovering from this recovery so far is big business and corporations while average people with small businesses are still suffering. Meanwhile, Cambridge Professors are suggesting that global governance is the only way to prevent the world from decades of crisis... and corrupt nations like Russia/China etc. are encouraging and pushing new global economic world orders that they want a stake in.

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Hahaha, you don't have to worry about Russia, they won't be doing anything for a long time. You remember how they backed the UN resolution against Iran and have now said that they're dropping the delivery of S-300s? That was a deal with the US. The Russian economy is in disastrous long term shape. They are reliant on energy exports (which is a recipe for disaster in itself), their demographics are in a world of shit, second highest AIDS count to Africa (so bad that Moscow told WHO to stop testing), huuuuuge drug resistant TB, etc. etc. Russia needs an injection of foreign investment and most of all technology to shift them away from an energy export dependent economy or by this time next decade Russia will be in the tank, to the point of total collapse.

 

So they made a deal with the US, they'll throw Iran under the bus if the US invests and brings in technology. One element of tech they want from the US is that of ice platform drilling. If you look through Medvedev's big St. Petersburg speech from yesterday, which you've posted some of up there, you will see changes to capital gains tax and a whole lot of other items that encourage investment. Russia for the first time in generations, since before the Cold War and maybe even the revolution, is importing military equipment instead of making it themselves. That is because they are so far behind in technology. They are looking to buy 4 Mistral class carriers from France but the sticking point is what tech will come with it. They have bought the rights to manufacture foreign thermal imagery tech for tanks and so on and I beleive they will buy some UAV tech soon as well.

 

Russia is VERY dependent on the US right now for money and technology. They won't be leading anyone anywhere for a good time yet.

 

That inflation/deflation data is a bit of a worry, you don't want material prices rising and consumer prices dropping. Deflation can become a self fulfilling spiral as people wait for the prices to drop more before buying. Don't be overly concerned about the job figures as overall they are recovering. Latest figures are showing that the recovery has plateaued a bit keep in mind that this is within an upward trend. The US has growth, that's central. And I'm no economist but I think Greenspan has lost a large amount of credibility, no?

 

I've notice you call the US, China and Russia corrupt nations. Can you give me an example of an honest nation? I don't mean in abstract terms but are there any out there, like Sweden, Japan, Canada or whoever?

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i don't really think there is anything such as an honest nation. are you insinuating that these nations aren't corrupt and these governments don't oppress their people? a nation is a government, bureaucracy, royalty, hierarchy that can't have a human characteristic like honesty, but it can become corrupted, oppressive, inhumane. that's why we have checks and balances in place, with a democratic republic that abides by the laws of the constitution and bill of rights.

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i don't really think there is anything such as an honest nation. are you insinuating that these nations aren't corrupt and these governments don't oppress their people? a nation is a government, bureaucracy, royalty, hierarchy that can't have a human characteristic like honesty, but it can become corrupted, oppressive, inhumane. that's why we have checks and balances in place, with a democratic republic that abides by the laws of the constitution and bill of rights.

 

What?! Dude, I just asked a question, stop being so suspicious. Pretty sure I've been straight forward with a certain clarity in everything that I've discussed. I don't insinuate or imply, I make a claim and then attempt to back it up with evidence or a rational argument.

 

But I am trying to work towards a conclusion otherwise we are just flapping in the breeze here.

 

Now, are there any states that you can name that are not corrupted, oppressive or inhumane?

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Zig:

I am interested if you have some kind of ideal political arrangement that you would like to share with us? You speak highly of constitutional powers etc so I am imagining that you are a liberal in the true meaning of the word.

Do you adhere to a particular ideology? Can point towards a nation that you believe are operating generally in accordance with your preferred method?

You seem to be very concerned with any sense of US interdependence, so how you would like to conduct international relations?

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sighh you guys keep trying to pry my brain open like i'm the only one in this topic posting. but when i ask you questions about why your asking me this stuff, you get all defensive...

 

stop trying to pin me down, please. are you trying to categorize me or something? not everyone has a label they wear proudly, i'm not necessarily a libertarian purist... i'm simply someone who is interested in these topics of discussion and follow them closely. what does it even matter my personal ideology? i think the ideologies of these elitists / governments and leaders of the world is what we should be discussing, not "zig" from 12oz.

 

in the interest of keeping the thread going ill entertain you though... i don't adhere to a particular ideology, if anything... i agree with a lot of things Paul and Jones say, but then again I disagree with a lot of stuff they say too. there are particular issues i find an interest in, for example i think we should end the war on drugs, i think we should abolish the federal reserve, i think we should pull out of the U.N, i think we should bring all of our troops home from overseas, i think congress should have to declare war for there to be war and if that isn't the case i don't think troops or military should be invested, i dont think anyone... not even the cia or fbi, should be allowed to wiretap and snoop on american citizens without warrants or going through the proper procedures, i think america is a police state, i dont think america is free or even a democracy... its broken and corrupt, i think the twin towers had explosive devices in them which caused them to collapse, including WTC 7, i want the patriot act repealed, i think the war on terrorism is just as bogus as the war on drugs, i think government is out of control and too big and needs to be put in check by the people, i think this is happening all around the world... so therefore i can't give you a model government that isn't corrupt.

 

im confused though... your asking me things like... what is an honest nation zig? what would be a model government that isn't corrupt that you can name zig? what ideology do you adhere to zig? but... why are you asking me these things? i think its because this is going over your head... and i'm not saying that to condescend you. there are very intelligent people here on these forums i won't deny that, but maybe your a bit too caught up in your logic and academic way of analyzing things to really grasp the information i and others have linked you to. no frankie, i don't have any plans or ideal political arrangements to share with everyone... what i do know is that the ideal political arrangement established in THIS nation isn't being respected or followed by an out of control government. the rights of the people are being trampled on, and our government serves the interests of elitists and corporations rather than the people, because it is owned and controlled by elitists and corporations. so this isn't ideal to me. the new world order is just these corrupt out of control governments, who have already wreaked havoc on free independent humanity with war, oppression, genocide, looting and pillaging, you name it... getting together and establishing an international cooperation so they can further prop their corrupt system up and continue what they've already been doing but probably even worse and now on a global scale. watching this being set up during my generation is frustrating enough, but then i have to argue with people who still won't even admit this is going on. i mean, some people still don't even want to admit that these governments are illegitimate and not cooperating with the law and believe that everything government does is good, just, benevolent, and noble. i'm the bad guy for saying, hey look what government is doing. i'm the one you want to get to know better? really? you want to know MY idealogy? like i'm threatening to the world with what I believe?

 

i'm not the person with an ideology you should be concerned about...

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Whoa dude, chill out! I simply asked you a question. I am not pushing you to do or say anything, let alone try to set you up or something. If anything I am trying to get to a better understanding of where you are coming from. Because, to be totally honest, I have no idea! On the one hand you are clearly a clever guy, you put together pretty eloquent posts, you also are sufficiently motivated to do a lot of writing on here, so I can safely say you have some degree of political energy of one kind or another. On the other hand, you seem to insist that any evidence of almost anything is another step towards the end of the world!

 

There are a lot of things wrong with the world, and I am all for highlighting them, but I also think its important to be able to make some positive claims about what a better arrangement would look like.

 

Personally, I don't really like to make the same kinds of arguments again and again. Hence my absence of comment in this particular thread. I am basically looking for a direction that I can engage with you on, rather than the ping pong that has taken place so far, ie you claim an article or an event is another incremental step towards a global takeover or some such thing and I argue that it is not.

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no... im chill. thank you btw for the compliments, but i'm really not that smart as the rest of you are here on this forum i realize that and i'm not trying to be modest that is just the truth. some of you are probably twice my age, and have way more experience then me.

 

i have my own perspective, and i dont think things are leading towards the "end of the world" but i do think things are heading towards a "new world order", by whatever definition that is to those who are saying it, or whatever you personally see that new world order as being... i see it as something very negative, very threatening towards freedom. i also believe it is something that is done incrementally over time, because that is the only way people will accept it... if you ask the general public what they think about world government or global government, someone who isn't as politically aware or conscious of these topics would say it is inevitable and probably good for mankind. just like people who say depopulation is good, and the world is overpopulated so we should get rid of people for the environment... because that is what they were taught and subliminally they accept these ideas and go along with the mass belief. i personally am against it, i don't think it is good for humanity and when i view articles/pieces in the news that are incrementally leading in that direction i point it out.

 

its also not my own words or me personally saying any of this stuff. im not the cambridge professor with tons of credentials and credibility saying that we need global governance to survive catastrophe. i'm not greenspan going around saying we could be the next greece and go bankrupt, i'm not soros saying a decline of the dollar is desirable, i'm not china or russia calling for new global economic world order. if anyone is suggesting end of the world scenarios it is these people, so im simply pointing this out.

 

if you dont think these are steps towards a "global takeover" i mean make your points, i'm not disallowing you from doing that. i have no answers as to what would be a better model. if i personally were to start anywhere, it would be with reigning in the real criminals behind 9/11... i'm not going to sit here like zeitgeist documentary and come up with a whole new civilization that operates on alternative energy and is a beautiful futuristic utopia etc. etc. it's just not realistic to me.

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Zig, you come across like an internet version of the guy on the street carrying a sign that says "THE END IS NIGH".

 

When asked to clarify your claims and give a foundation and fundamentals, or to anchor your views on something you get defensive and lash out. No one said anythign about ideologies, we just asked you the logical follow on questions from YOUR own claims. If you can identify dishonesty and corruption then by default you have to be able to identify honesty and legitimacy. If you can't do that then I would argue you don't actually understand the concept and the logical follow on from that is that you don't understand how the world actually works....., nor how research and critical thought works either.

 

If you're as interested in this stuff as much as you make out, I'd suggest you get a proper education in it. That doesn't mean getting indoctrinated or anything, Noam Chomsky and his ilk are highly educated but don't follow political norms. But trying to work out how politics, power, sociology, foreign policy, geopolitical strategy and so on work in the world without having done at least a few semesters of formal studies on the subject is like trying to be a doctor without ever studying medicine.

 

You can post all the articles and shit from Russians and Greenspan as you want. But until you understand the structures and systems you're always going to misinterpret them. And when you have an agenda that you're hell bent on forwarding, like you do with this NWO shit, you're always going to end up interpreting them in a way that backs up your position, which you do.

 

Frankie, you got a damn good point in the way you observe these conversations, same arguments again and again no matter what is put forward to the contrary based on what I believe is a lack of fundamental knowledge.

 

I know I sound like a condescending wanker here, but I don't care.

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Let me try and put it in a way dosn't make me sound like such an asshole.

 

 

IF you're looking at the US involvement in WW2 with a fresh mind you're going to think it's the be all and end all and the cessation of US isolationism is going to result on the US getting caught up in Europe, forgetting it's own domestic concerns and crumbling from the inside.

 

A person with a fresh mind looking at the US increasing involvement in Vietnam would be thinking at the time that the US was stretching itself too far, was acting imperialistically and was risking turning the world against it.

 

A person witnessing the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq with a fresh slate could be excused for thinking that this is the US trying to be the world's policeman, fighting for oil and increasing terrorism and anti-Americanism around the world.

 

 

 

However, these fear and all the others in between not only failed to come true (the US is stronger now than it ever was before in terms of real power and what they can achieve) but to people that have either lived through these times and have the experience of age or those who have studies all this and know that these fears of impending doom for the US have been around for generations already and this is nothing new, well all these people tend to look on things a little differently.

 

 

The people that have done years of research under scientific principals, know their history and theory and those who have perspective anchored in the experience of history have a benchmark, a basis, an anchor that they can compare current issues to. If you don't have a foundation the first big thing you see will fool you and blow you away. And now that we have the internet there is so many of these people who have been fooled and blown away by stuff because they don't have a benchmark or foundation, that takes years of study or even more years of experience, these guys are now passing their hysterical crap off as reality and anyone that tries to talk reason is ignorant because we "refuse to see". It's simply not the case, we just have a benchmark and a foundation with which to analyse events with and when you look at history and understand systems and structures a lot more of what we see is explainable away from the hysteria that we see with dickheads like Alex Jones and that New World Order film I recently tortured myself with.....

 

 

Anyway, sorry to sound like an asshole before, I get frustrated too easily. I'm old, forgive me....

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You do sound like an asshole, and you are old... and that's another reason why I think you and I don't click and we never will. I don't hold it against you, and I'm certainly not trying to argue with you. You're out of touch with the way I live, the way my generation lives. You're saying I'm the internet version of the "end is nigh guy", but nothing I'm personally saying is suggesting the end of the world. I'm actually very positive. I think this new world order can be avoided, I have faith in humanity, and I see these globalist ideologies and plans falling apart as we speak. If I post an article about a Cambridge professor saying global governance is needed to avoid catastrophe, how is this man's views now connected to mine personally? If I post an article about Soros saying the dollar's dominance in the market is gone, the system is broken, reform needs to take place, and a decline of the dollar is desirable... how is this man's doom and gloom scenario now connected to me personally? That's like me posting about the BP oil spill saying this is a tragedy, and then you coming out and telling me I'm making it a big deal when it really isn't.

 

You also keep claiming that I don't understand what I'm talking about, because I'm not educated enough. Sure, you have way more education and experience then I do and I commend you on that and I pay attention to things you say. It doesn't change my perspective though, nothing you've said has. I've read material from the people you're speaking of, Chomsky and the like... but where I'm coming from isn't places they themselves even touch upon, because it would probably not be very good for their career. The statements Chomsky has personally made about 9/11 and other "conspiracy theories" have offended me, and I therefore don't purchase any of his material or really listen to the guy anymore. Most of them seem like gatekeepers to me, who will talk about all of these atrocities of government, but ignore or dismiss other events that are controversial because they are protecting their careers.

 

I have my opinions about what it is that makes you yourself dismiss this information, but I really don't care that you do. It's your own prerogative, and I will continue posting articles here in this topic and you can continue logically explaining it the way you are. It really makes no difference to me. I only got defensive because it was frustrating to me how you keep throwing questions at me like these things don't exist. Like the U.S, China, and Russia aren't corrupt. Like these government's don't oppress their citizens. Like these government's haven't committed atrocities. You ask me to present to you an "honest nation", which is just ridiculous to me... seriously. Then when I answer you're question and bring up the Constitution, I'm questioned about what I personally think would be the ideal government for humanity... like I'm qualified to come up with these ideas. So let me get this right, since I'm the one talking about how government is corrupt, I guess it's my responsibility to tell everyone how we should be living our lives instead? I mean, that is how I took all that.

 

A person witnessing the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq with a fresh slate could be excused for thinking that this is the US trying to be the world's policeman, fighting for oil and increasing terrorism and anti-Americanism around the world.

 

However, these fear and all the others in between not only failed to come true (the US is stronger now than it ever was before in terms of real power and what they can achieve) but to people that have either lived through these times and have the experience of age or those who have studies all this and know that these fears of impending doom for the US have been around for generations already and this is nothing new, well all these people tend to look on things a little differently.

 

The people that have done years of research under scientific principals, know their history and theory and those who have perspective anchored in the experience of history have a benchmark, a basis, an anchor that they can compare current issues to. If you don't have a foundation the first big thing you see will fool you and blow you away. And now that we have the internet there is so many of these people who have been fooled and blown away by stuff because they don't have a benchmark or foundation, that takes years of study or even more years of experience, these guys are now passing their hysterical crap off as reality and anyone that tries to talk reason is ignorant because we "refuse to see". It's simply not the case, we just have a benchmark and a foundation with which to analyse events with and when you look at history and understand systems and structures a lot more of what we see is explainable away from the hysteria that we see with dickheads like Alex Jones and that New World Order film I recently tortured myself with.....

 

This is another thing about you that we're never going to click on either. You pass this off as hysteria and illogical, but you're wrong. That's all there is to it, you're wrong because that's not what it is. I know because I pay more attention to it then you do. Where as, sometimes it may seem like the way I'm coming across is "the end is nigh", which is absolutely false... in my opinion I don't think that whatsoever, but ok. YOU actually come across to me like, "nothing is wrong". So, I mean we aren't going to agree based on that foundation right there ever.

 

You know, I'm sure you don't believe a lot of the key things I believe that keep me focused on these topics. I'm certain you don't think the twin towers had explosives in the building that brought them down. You probably don't think JFK was assassinated by more then Lee Harvy Oswald. Maybe you think Timothy McVeigh was solely responsible for Oklahoma city. You probably think Osama Bin laden planned and carried out 9/11 all by himself. Maybe even you were one of those people who really thought America was going into Iraq to liberate? I don't know. The shit we are talking about here is nothing. This isn't even scratching the surface of the deep discussion we could have, but in my opinion you are too close minded to even have those discussions. You're very caught up in your scientific, logical method of thinking and that's great but it won't get you any deeper than anything a Chomsky, for instance, would consider important. To you, I'm just a "conspiracy theorist", and that's fine. That's what I'll be then here on these forums, and I'll continue being that.

 

and no i'm not mad, i'm not raging, i have nothing against you or anyone here personally and i don't mean for this post to be offensive towards you. i'm simply defending the right to my political and world views.

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Let me try and put it in a way dosn't make me sound like such an asshole.

 

 

IF you're looking at the US involvement in WW2 with a fresh mind you're going to think it's the be all and end all and the cessation of US isolationism is going to result on the US getting caught up in Europe, forgetting it's own domestic concerns and crumbling from the inside.

 

A fresh mind? What does that even mean? Some kind of unbiased opinion based off of what happened during WW2 after the fact? Who cares?

 

Personally, I wouldn't call the United States isolationist's before WW2, we just weren't the worlds police like we are now and look at how well that has gone. Our involvement in WW2 has to due with the fact that Nazi Germany was attempting to take over the World. If they succeeded in conquering Europe, which is exactly what they were on their way to accomplishing, what would have been next? The war would have reached us eventually.

 

A person with a fresh mind looking at the US increasing involvement in Vietnam would be thinking at the time that the US was stretching itself too far, was acting imperialistically and was risking turning the world against it.

 

Again, "fresh mind" this is basically the consensus on what happened. Not to mention the loss of 155k United States citizens.

 

A person witnessing the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq with a fresh slate could be excused for thinking that this is the US trying to be the world's policeman, fighting for oil and increasing terrorism and anti-Americanism around the world.

 

Excused? Like this isn't exactly what is going on? I mean...if you honestly believe that we invaded both of these nations to save them, I really don't know what to say.

 

However, these fear and all the others in between not only failed to come true (the US is stronger now than it ever was before in terms of real power and what they can achieve) but to people that have either lived through these times and have the experience of age or those who have studies all this and know that these fears of impending doom for the US have been around for generations already and this is nothing new, well all these people tend to look on things a little differently.

Seriously? Stronger now than ever? Really? I mean, I live here the State I currently am a resident in is about to go BANKRUPT. Emergency measures are being taken into consideration to keep the State of New York's government operating. Not to mention the Anti-American sentiment that increased around the world. The inability to control our own borders? I mean, are you THIS out of touch with what is going on in United States? Should I even bring up our deficit. Now that statement was probably directed mostly at our military power. Yeah, sure, great. What is this going to lead too? Money that can be spent here on much more productive means is being tossed to the military industrial complex, which will only lead to more aggression from us, more violence, and more unnecessary wars.

 

The people that have done years of research under scientific principals, know their history and theory and those who have perspective anchored in the experience of history have a benchmark, a basis, an anchor that they can compare current issues to. If you don't have a foundation the first big thing you see will fool you and blow you away. And now that we have the internet there is so many of these people who have been fooled and blown away by stuff because they don't have a benchmark or foundation, that takes years of study or even more years of experience, these guys are now passing their hysterical crap off as reality and anyone that tries to talk reason is ignorant because we "refuse to see". It's simply not the case, we just have a benchmark and a foundation with which to analyse events with and when you look at history and understand systems and structures a lot more of what we see is explainable away from the hysteria that we see with dickheads like Alex Jones and that New World Order film I recently tortured myself with.....

The thing here is that well there is a variety of opinions that come about when you bring up any "conspiracy theory". The minds you speak of, don't address these issue's like Zig said, they have career's families to consider when they open their mouth to speak on such issue's. It takes an unbelievable amount of courage to actually open your mouth, bring up or discuss things like 9/11 or the JFK assassination in public. Look what happened to Van Jones for being a member of some petition on Facebook. He had to resign. The press went NUTS. I mean I could go further and further providing examples and evidence towards these two events alone that would suggest that the official story in both cases is NOT ACCURATE AT ALL.

Anyway, sorry to sound like an asshole before, I get frustrated too easily. I'm old, forgive me....

 

Also can you stop apologizing for shit you do on the regular. You ain't changing, neither are the people who disagree with your opinion. How about just stop throwing insults out at people who are just trying to have a simple discussion. Get off your high horse, doggie.

 

 

Props to Zig.

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Haha, fresh mind was a polite way of saying "uneducated and wouldn't have a fucking clue".

 

So yeah, I'm an asshole, I'm out of touch, blah blah blah.

 

Good luck with all your fear and dramatics, guys. I hope for your sakes that you do get an education in this field one day because it is extremely interesting and will help you understand what is actually going on instead of jumping at shadows.

 

 

Carry on....

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I find it interesting that the term 'closed minded' is being tossed around so much. On the one hand we have Christo-f consistently demonstrating that he is widely read and capable of interpreting the actions of key international players so as to build a picture of not only what their agenda may be but also potential flow on effects of their actions. On the other we have Zig and ILOTS focussing on a few flashpoints in history or whatever else Alex Jones wants to talk about. All the while interpreting every single event or issue as leading to only one possible outcome, which is a seemingly biblical style battle between the good guys (a variety of constitutional nationalists) and the bad guys (cosmopolitans). Go figure.

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I am not focusing on anything. I am simply responding to a post.

 

I just said he was out of touch with the condition of the United States of America, because apparently to him we are stronger than ever. I than brought up that the only sector that actually is "stronger than ever" is the military industrial complex. Please provide information on where anything I said was distorted, or grim in nature. I am also not 12 years old. I am very well aware that things are a lot more complicated than "good guys and bad guys". I am also very well aware of how complex international relations can be, especially when these nations have competing interests.

 

Again, you are throwing me into a group of people of whom I do not agree with the dooms day scenario. Are things bad? Yes. Can they improve? Yes.

 

I am also an Atheist so, biblical style battles really don't apply to me.

 

EDIT: I also give Christo props and credit pretty often. I for the most part appreicate his opinion and the information he brings to the table regardless if I agree or disagree. However when you are just straight up insulting people for absolutely no reason what so ever, and than apologize while continuing to do it, that's pretty fucking arrogant.

 

An example is his post directly following mine. All of us create our own realities, each of them very different from the next.

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I keep trying to make myself catch up to this thread again. I find it to be one of the more interesting threads in crossfire in recent times.

 

It's kinda funny how we have several different mindsets represented here in a small amount of people who partake in the thread. Makes for good reading.

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