AZ Signs 1st Anti-Immigration Law

[screaming hand logo]

i was listening to a report and illegal immigrants pay close to 80% of taxes citizens pay. meaning about 20% of illegals are not paying taxes. plus they don't get tax returns.

another factoid 170 corporation summits have been cancelled because of this law in arizona which would have put multi millions into there economy.

[iloveboxcars]

because they rounded up all of the illegals and made them fill out a consensus?

 

 

 

i call bullshit on those numbers.

[Mercer]

My main problem with the entire situation at hand is the naturalization process itself.

I just don't think it's possible for many people who will come here to contribute, to do so legally.

Having first hand knowledge of the process it's become more costly than the actual cost of processing an applicant.

 

Kind of reminds me of how they can over tax cigarettes not on logic, but on the idea that people dislike smokers.

Instead of raising taxes or cutting out all the bullshit spending they target minorities (not racial) to stick them with the burden.

God forbid they piss off voters by cutting wasteful spending or piss off campaign contributes by raising taxes.

Gotta raise money somehow.

 

It's irrational to expect people to be able to spend thousands of dollars (with no guarantee) on trying to get a work visa here.

The politicians and lobbyist who run stuff on the Federal level would never consider fixing this as part of fixing the problem.

The entire process is broken down and will most likely never be fixed or rational.

 

I also agree that our farm subsidies combined with our "free trade" rules with Mexico are only benefiting a few but ruining things for most of us.

Again, I have no faith in our Federal Government to repair this either considering the way things work on the corporate/political level here.

 

It's almost as if Arizona is actually trying to do something to fix this but going about in a way that makes it feel more like a police state and excuse the generalization here but racist.

I don't believe racism is the only part of the equation but still think it's a major underlying factor for anti illegal immigrant sentiment.

[Mercer]

Dude it's not about being insecure, or being "offensive". Those are the rules.

 

Like I have said earlier, if you want to discuss the difficulty level of the actual citizenship process that is another argument all together.

 

The problem is, the people who come here don't care about the United States, they care about their own personal benefit. The fact is they leech off of the public works that are supposed to exist for CITIZENS. That is the problem. They also do so, without even attempting to become an actual citizen.

 

No insecurities over here. I love Mexican's. I've worked with plenty of illegal's over my life time. I've taken trips to Mexico, the people there are unbelievably kind. I mean I just love how you can even logically be against illegal immigrants and people still think you're a racist, or you're scared of Mexicans.

 

Not to sound argumentative at all but learning English isn't a rule to live here.

Becoming an Citizen requires it and it's a good idea to do so even if you're don't intend on becoming a citizen.

However some people have no intention of becoming citizens and have no need to learn it.

Some people don't want to give up citizenship in their other country, and some are simply here to work and provide for their kids.

Again, I'd also like to point out that it becomes more and more difficult to do with age, especially when you're working full time/taking care of a family.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to make an excuse, I don't think they owe it to you to learn English in the first place.

 

As far as "Caring about America" I think most people here don't, regardless of where they were born or if they have a flag bumper sticker/lapel.

I can tell you personally, I dislike our government with a passion and feel most of our citizens are in a media endued over consumption haze.

Doesn't mean I'd like living anywhere else better than here or that I hate everything to the point where I actually dislike America.

I don't expect everyone else here to feel the same way as me, or change their lives to make things slightly more convenient for me.

As long as they contribute and aren't hurting me, they stay off the shitlist.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Word.

 

Basically we agree what the real issue's are.

 

The process itself to actually becoming a citizen, plus other outside factors.

 

Just disagree on some social things.

 

I was going to give props on the post prior to this one but apparently I prop you too much.

[Boris The Butcher]

I'm in this country illegally I don't speak good english--------

 

I'm here for the money and white bitches------

 

fuck arizona---

[cunt sauce]

You know whats ironic? We are communicating on a website in which most of the content is in documenting the vandalism of public and private property and there are people complaining about OTHERS being a drain on society? HA!

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Yeah, some people here also advocate draconian laws, that allow camera's to follow you around and police to basically arrest you at a whim.

 

Funny, right?

 

Not to mention environmentalists who want to make the world green. Hey buddy weren't you pumping harmful chemicals into the ozone on the daily? Not to mention, polluting your own body?

 

Sheesh. Talk about hypocrites.

[screaming hand logo]

i was against the arizona law till yesterday. i went to a taqueria and the side of my super burrito blew out.

[CityonSMASH]

posted this up in the mlb thread in ch.o - pretty interesting angle.

 

interesting discussion on dan patrick's show today about how the new law in arizona will effect baseball.

 

24% of major leagures are not u.s. citizens. 49% of minor leaguers are not u.s. citizens. think about spring training, think about the allstar game being played there next year and also think about the impact it will have with the dbacks ability or subsequent inhability to sign players.

 

its big.

[B_As_In_Bot]

Ever since the Spaniards came into Mexico and began populating it they - themselves have been the illegal aliens. Nobody said it was okay for Cortes to come over from Spain and began slaughtering the indigenous tribes or people there. I believe the proper terminology would be Invasive Settlers, not migrants..

 

They came here to take over the continent, and they are still attempting to do it. The big thing that is blocking them is themselves. They could easily all come over at once and tear that wall down - then pour into this country like a flash flood. This would result in more people expanding their families, that speak more then just the English language.

 

Eventually everyone would learn to live in harmony with each other which is a grave threat to national security these days.

 

When the government treats people like animals, to taken out and shot for crossing an imaginary border you see what they are doing. They are attempting to turn everyone against each other. black vs. white/man vs. woman/gay vs. straight/Blue collar vs. White..

 

The best way to turn people against one another is to convince that they own a part of this planet. You tell the "citizens" that they belong to this soil and that their roots are in that soil.

 

once you have a population living this lie you can threaten to take it away from them, so as to manipulate the masses into a desired position - in order to make your next move.

 

So as long as people still believe that a part of the earth is actually theirs and not the other way around, you always see rioting and hate crimes that would not exist in a better world.

 

Until the ultimate realization takes place and we began to organize, you will be seeing a lot more of this stuff.

[cunt sauce]

i'd like to point out that 'free trade' is not NAFTA. nafta is govt managed trade and basically is protectionism.

 

farm subsidies are probably the most idiotic things our government does, YET if you oppose farm subsidies, you 'HATE FARMERS!!!'

 

it boils down to this:

if you cannot compete with others, if you cant pull your own weight, get out of the business and do something productive. (which is what i wish all the bureaucrats do... disband, go home and get paid for their actual production, under minimum wage. perhaps they can get a job at mcdonalds or a janitor at a shopping mall) i continually hear people on campaigns about buying 'local.' most of these types equate 'local' with 'healthy' because of the organic food movement which is just completely out of hand and is the latest gimmick of gimmicks in my opinion. i hear that 'transportation' cost is the major cost in food. yet looking purely at economics... if i buy a 'local' watermelon from a 'local' fruit stand, i will pay about 9$. a equally as scrumptious watermelon can be had in the supermarket across the street from across the country (which is 'local' to that part of the country) for half that price, with the across country transportation costs included.

 

now granted, i like to patronize 2 produce stands in the summer. i semi know the people, they are good people and i like to give them my money. i used to work on their cars at work, etc. but the economic reality is these people cannot compete and to top it off they have to loot americans pay checks to get hand outs! they get you coming and going. that 9 dollar watermelon probably really costs 20 bucks out of the taxpayers pocket in the end.

 

and this is the case for free trade... why should costa rica make maple syrup? and why should canada grow banana's when we all know who does what the most economically efficient.

 

Yeah you are right about the differences between NAFTA and free trade, but you are a little off when it comes to farm subsidies and the "organic gimmick". Fresh Fruits and Vegetables make up less than a tenth of a percent of the total subsidies given out to farmers.

 

"In 2003, the most recent year for which comprehensive statistics are available, the top 10 percent of all subsidy recipients gobbled up 68 percent of the money, and the top 5 percent got 55 percent.

 

Take, for instance, Riceland Foods in Stuttgart, Arkansas, the largest single recipient of farm welfare. In 2003 it received $68.9 million in subsidies for producing rice, soybeans, wheat, and corn—more than all the farmers in Rhode Island, Hawaii, Alaska, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, Nevada, and New Jersey combined.

 

The second-largest recipient of farm welfare in 2003 was Producers Rice Mill, also in Stuttgart, Arkansas, which received $51.4 million. The agricultural welfare rolls also include many Fortune 500 companies, such as Archer Daniels Midland and International Paper, plus corporations most people don't associate with farming, such as Chevron, Caterpillar, and Electronic Data Systems."

 

Local organic food is so expensive because it is more labor-intensive and it doesn't come from the cheap-labor capital of the western world, Central and South America where most of the fruit and vegetables Americans consume come from.

 

Compare it to shopping at American Apparel as opposed to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart gets their clothes from sweatshops in Honduras or Nicaragua, that is why they are cheap. You as the consumer of Wal-Mart goods do not see the REAL price in the goods. The real price was paid in the form of cheap labor, by the impoverished worker who has no other choice but to work for a couple bucks a day sewing together you T-shirts and Jeans.

 

Or the Pendleton Organic clothing line from Portland. Everything is grown organically in Portland, but assembled in Mexico. Its cheaper for them to grow wool and cotton here, then send it across the border to be assembled and then sent back to be sold than to skip the transportation and pay someone a decent (or at least living) wage here to assemble it. When they label it as "Organic", that is where the marketing gimmick comes in. (clothing and cosmetics do not need to have a usda certification to claim they are organic)

 

While organic is becoming quite the marketing issue when it comes to businesses (Wal-Mart has recently tried to reduce the USDA standards on what can be considered organic) they have to be certified to claim they are organic and they have to endure periodic audits and evaluations of their soils, product, and operations. What qualifies as organic you may ponder? With produce, it cannot be grown with synthetic fertilizers or synthetic pesticides and it cannot be genetically modified. A civil penalty of up to $11,000 can be levied on any person who knowingly sells or labels as organic a product that is not produced and handled in accordance with the National Organic Program’s regulations.

 

The reason why a lot of the annoying, smug, lefty types are willing to pay more for fair trade coffee and local organic food is the fact that they know it is supporting something they believe in, and the money they spend is like voting for what kind of products they want in the market place. I'm not going to go into the whole environmental tip of why organic is better, but i will just say that an organic shopper is someone who "practices what they preach".

[cunt sauce]

Fields, Scott. "Do Agricultural Subsidies Foster Poor Health?." Environmental Health Perspectives 112, no. 14 (October 2004): A 820-A 823. Academic Search Complete, EBSCOhost (accessed May 4, 2010).

[B_As_In_Bot]

I've known this shit since 96;

 

"Flip this capital eclipse

Tha vocal tone has got 'em sweatin' their own apocalypse

Yes, rebel of tha grains stand masterless

Tha masked ones cap one

NAFTA comin' with tha new disaster"

 

Thanks to the wonders of music.

[Mercer]

For a brief introduction to our under reported food issues that even describes how it effects Mexico this film is fairly accurate IMO.

 

[angelofdeath]

Yeah you are right about the differences between NAFTA and free trade, but you are a little off when it comes to farm subsidies and the "organic gimmick". Fresh Fruits and Vegetables make up less than a tenth of a percent of the total subsidies given out to farmers.

 

you are right about the subsidies, however the place in my example, to my knowledge, as i know people who run the place DO get subsidies.

 

Local organic food is so expensive because it is more labor-intensive and it doesn't come from the cheap-labor capital of the western world, Central and South America where most of the fruit and vegetables Americans consume come from.

 

there is no 'local' ORGANIC food near me unless you travel to a farmers market 20 miles away where you are able to get 'local organic' food but it is normally from 100 miles away. the hippies merely think because something is 'local' it is either 'healthy' or 'organic' by default when 'local' is just referring to geography. the 'local' farm where most fruit is raised for 'local' sale is worked largely by mexicans making minimum wage or LESS and chemicals are used, it is not a certified organic farm. when you talk to the 'organic' types they somehow overlook the 'non organic-ness' of the 'local' food and consider it the best available, yet will NOT eat the same damn thing from a grocery store because it is from another state which for some reason is considered evil. it is flat out stupidity. if we were really to follow what is preached.. and only buy 'local' consider the variety of food we would have at our disposal. we wouldnt have SHIT. all those fancy foods in whole foods that come from different parts of the globe would NOT be there, yet the 'smug lefties' as you put it, dont even consider this rather hypocritical position. different areas produce different products more efficiently. this is the market. and to top it off, they can bring them to you cheaper than someone 'local' can produce it.

 

while i see no problem with buying things where ever you want to, local stand or super market, some of these people would like to BAN super market food as a public health concern the way various other foods are banned. while you will win some people over to the 'local' or 'organic' food movement by them supporting the health aspects of organic food, through marketing the 'gimmick' and some times just out of convenience (large organic grocery stores tend to pop up in rich neighborhoods) you will not win over the masses to see the difference of paying 2$ for a delicious pineapple and paying 7.99 for an organic pineapple. i would probably eat more organic food but my wallet cannot handle it. i eat atleast 6 lbs of chicken a week (hey, i lift weights), 7.5 dozen eggs, 2 gallons of milk, etc. if i were to buy that 18 dollar pack of chicken breasts in an organic brand, the price would almost double. milk almost doubles, 'local' organic eggs would be approximately 15$ instead of 7$ for non organic eggs. if i swap out steak for the chicken as i like to do, instead of paying 8.99 a pound for filet mignon at costco i'll have to pay 23.99 a pound at whole foods. multiply that by 6 or 7 pounds and we see where this is going. organic food is largely a product of the upper middle/rich lefty hipster/yuppie type. I understand why it is much more expensive, i just cant justify it.

 

for a while i was consuming contraband raw milk in a state where it is illegal to purchase. however, i found out that my stomach cannot tolerate non homogenized milk the way i can tolerate store bought homogenized milk. the unpasteurized part didnt bother me as i ate unpasteurized butter and yogurt with no problem. while the organizers of the group were pure bred libertarians and the group's contract that i had to sign in order to partake in the group was written on the same level as the declaration of independence, the email list that organized the group and coordinated deliveries was run by obama-ite lefties who spent their entire times on the email list denouncing capitalism and how super market food was going to kill everyone. needless to say i was banned from the list i soon after didnt renew my membership because i couldnt drink raw milk anyway. yet it was the market place, free exchange, that brought them their raw milk, exploited a loop hole in the law, and satisfied their wants.

 

Compare it to shopping at American Apparel as opposed to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart gets their clothes from sweatshops in Honduras or Nicaragua, that is why they are cheap. You as the consumer of Wal-Mart goods do not see the REAL price in the goods. The real price was paid in the form of cheap labor, by the impoverished worker who has no other choice but to work for a couple bucks a day sewing together you T-shirts and Jeans.

 

compare the fact that if walmart wasnt buying those shirts, and those people werent making them, consider how WORSE off those workers would be. it is my knowledge that people routinely line up to get jobs at these so called 'slave labor camps aka sweat shops.' why? because they make GOOD money for that market place. just because american capitalists have figured out how to make americans labor so productive that we can enjoy more leisure time, there is no need to bash the free exchange system. the workers are free not to make them and if you consider it horrible, you are free not to buy the products. I, however, WILL purchase the walmart products and in the same time, i will be making out on the low priced item AND i will be helping my fellow man by keeping him employed.

 

and back to the 'local' farm that i am told i must support who employs low paid workers.... i am told that it is alright to support this place because the food is 'local' yet the workers are making less than walmart workers with no healthcare and are more like the 'slave labor' workers over seas. yet i am not allowed to support the places that sell products produced by 'slave labor' from over seas. do you see some sort of hypocrisy or ideological disconnect here?

 

The reason why a lot of the annoying, smug, lefty types are willing to pay more for fair trade coffee and local organic food is the fact that they know it is supporting something they believe in, and the money they spend is like voting for what kind of products they want in the market place. I'm not going to go into the whole environmental tip of why organic is better, but i will just say that an organic shopper is someone who "practices what they preach".

 

the hilarious aspect of the 'organic' movement is it is based on a total critique of CAPITALISM. the fair trade movement is nothing BUT a capitalist critique, yet the market, the human actions of individuals acting in their own self interest, capitalism, is what is bringing the smug lefty free trade coffee. it is not unlike che guevera who devoted his entire life to a revolution against capitalism, yet his image still shows up on t shirts at the GAP sold by 'greedy capitalists' for PROFIT.

 

you are correct, the people who want fair trade coffee and 'local organic food' do engage in market transactions for the food and they are 'putting their money where their mouthes are' in a sense. YET, the very thing they are critiquing, FREE TRADE, is what brought them their product! the free exchange of individuals in a frame work of private property! CAPITALISM!

 

i am still standing firm with the fact that a large portion of the 'organic' food movement who shop at the big box 'organic' food stores are doing it for the same reason they are LITERALLY throwing away all their chemicals and house hold cleaning products, (i know of atleast 5 people who have thrown away a years worth of 'toxic' cleaning supplies, into a land fill, in order to by all new 'green' supplies) to get 'green cleaning' supplies..... they are doing it because it is a TREND. HYPE. that is IT!

 

the level of fantasy these people live in is nuts. i constantly hear that they are eating 'healthy' as they are now using 'organic' lard and butter instead of non organic lard and butter. hate to break it to ya, the fats in those 'organic' products are just as detrimental to your overall health as non organic fats and oils.

 

and i'll repeat my 'local' scenario again.

there are about 5 big fruit and vegetable stands near me that operate during the summer. my wife and i were in an organic market, she asked the people about which fruit stand they 'recommend.' the person recommended a fruit stand, a place that i have been going to as far back as i can remember. the person at the organic market told us how great the fruit and vegetables are there, etc etc. how 'healthy' they are, etc RIGHT AFTER SHE TOLD US HOW SHE ONLY EATS ORGANIC FOOD AND THAT IT IS THE ONLY FOOD YOU SHOULD EAT. the fruit stand DOES NOT SELL ORGANIC FOOD!!! IT IS ONLY 'LOCAL' due to its geography.

 

so i'll say it again, most people on the 'local' kick do not understand it at all and are simply riding the latest trend.

[El Mamerro]

Not saying everyone who eats local is aware of this, but a good reason to buy local, if you were environmentally conscious, is because there's much less pollution and resources used on transporting goods long distances.

[Mercer]

Personally, I'm not even close to being 100% organic and off processed myself but I'm fully aware of the importance of this movement/trend and I try.

You don't need a beard or tie dyed shirt on to appreciate it and while pseudo hippies may be the most vocal supporters they are not alone in organic food enthusiasm.

I also think a monopoly of one or two Goliath companies, government owned or not, is just as destructive to free markets as a hard line communism.

Which is actually brings me to the topic.

 

That said, this farm subsidy deal we have is pure bullshit, the money doesn't go to the farmers to help keep our farms operating for the most part.

It ends up in the quarterly reports of large agricultural based corporations as part of a broken down corporate welfare system.

We don't subsidize farmers, we subsidize crops, the end result is farming has become more difficult and less diverse.

 

If we as tax payers collectively make grain much cheaper for Mexico to import than grow, something is majorly wrong and symptoms will appear.

It's already nearly impossible here to stay in business without welfare because of the artificial low price, we're also destroying the rural economies of our neighbor.

The issue is obviously more complex, but in essence this is a major factor why rural communities there can no longer operate.

If you're from a farming community in Mexico you may have only 3 choices, don't feed your family and starve, move to a more industrialized area for a unskilled job (of which there aren't enough) or jump the border.

 

That's not to say immigration and illegals would stop coming in completely, but it wouldn't be as massive as it is now and probably reflect a more tolerable rate like we had 60 years ago.

Focusing on the recent wave of massive illegal immigration we've been experiencing is as ridiculous as focusing on stitching your wounds faster instead of preventing the cuts in the first place.

[angelofdeath]

Not saying everyone who eats local is aware of this, but a good reason to buy local, if you were environmentally conscious, is because there's much less pollution and resources used on transporting goods long distances.

 

point made.

 

this along with the fact that you are giving your neighbor money as opposed to someone you dont know...is reason enough in my view to go to a farmers market. however the types i mentioned who equate 'local' with 'good' or 'organic' are just idiots.

 

however the group i belonged to that delivered raw milk to various localities, as well as grass fed beef, etc etc, still had to deliver the food in trucks. i know of farmers from the state i was getting food from were also having drivers take their food to downtown NYC which is atleast 5 hours from their farm. so much for 'local' and reducing pollution. and these people in NYC were proudly eating 'local' yet the food was from 5 hours away.

 

the only problem with the 'local' movement is that if taken to its logical conclusion and 'trade' is essentially eliminated, you essentially will be living like we were over 100 years ago when people were more or less just eating a bland diet on a subsistence level because they didnt have economically efficient access to outside markets.

 

if farm subsidies, tariffs, and everything else were eliminated on food then people get to see the actual cost. then we can have a real discussion about whether its feasible to eat local food or eat food from a state away. but if california can still raise cantaloupes and ship them to maine for cheaper and in greater quantity than what a maine farmer can grow them for.... then the maine farmer will have to either pull his own weight or get into a line of work he is competitive in. or sell his produce to the 'locals' who want 'local' food if the market still wants it.

 

it is odd though because for years the market has went from local organic produce to supermarkets and every one loved it how much better people were eating, how they were being treated, etc. now people want to return to 100 years ago, subsistence farming and the whole 9 yards. yet they discount the fact of all the wealth and standard of living that was raised due to things like grocery stores which allowed people to go out and produce things people wanted instead of trying to grow enough corn to feed your family. people just think the standard of living and wealth just come out of thin air and is just a product of nature and not human action. consider that only now, since we have so much leisure time and extra money that large amounts of people are worried about eating organic products. freedom has given this luxury to us.

[angelofdeath]

Personally, I'm not even close to being 100% organic and off processed myself but I'm fully aware of the importance of this movement/trend and I try.

You don't need a beard or tie dyed shirt on to appreciate it and while pseudo hippies may be the most vocal supporters they are not alone in organic food enthusiasm.

 

agreed. but for the same reason i dont feel comfortable hanging around an anti war protest, i dont feel comfortable around MOST organic food 'types.' while i tend to hold the same view that they do on those topics, that overall organic food is probably better for you and that we were better off not going to iraq, i feel that if i legally open carry a firearm to one of their super markets or wear a shirt that they dont agree with, i gotta hear a bunch of shit. then i have to deal with people in my previous posts that are convinced they are changing the world because the apple they are eating was grown without a pesticide on it. yet the very reason why pesticides came into use was to be able to produce more produce, waste less and feed more people. so i see the good in both sides.

 

there is a huge movement of limited govt types/free market anarchists, etc who are holistic health believers and organic food eaters. atleast i have something in common with these guys as opposed to looking like a 'nazi' if i go into a 'green' super market. not to mention, i hate smelling patchouli

[El Mamerro]

it is odd though because for years the market has went from local organic produce to supermarkets and every one loved it how much better people were eating, how they were being treated, etc. now people want to return to 100 years ago, subsistence farming and the whole 9 yards. yet they discount the fact of all the wealth and standard of living that was raised due to things like grocery stores which allowed people to go out and produce things people wanted instead of trying to grow enough corn to feed your family. people just think the standard of living and wealth just come out of thin air and is just a product of nature and not human action. consider that only now, since we have so much leisure time and extra money that large amounts of people are worried about eating organic products. freedom has given this luxury to us.

 

This is true, though that same demand drove supermarkets and their suppliers to adopt cheaper, faster, higher-yielding farming practices that in the end sacrifice nutritional value and heavily affect the environment.

 

The goal should be a middle ground: a reasonably healthy, reasonably sustainable, reasonably priced product.

 

We went too far in sacrificing quality for convenience, and demand from the opposite spectrum, however trendy or exploitable it may be, is a healthy behaviour that should be encouraged.

[B_As_In_Bot]

not to mention, i hate smelling patchouli

 

I work with those who smell of like patchouli. I think of that scene from Hi-Fidelity every time.. (get your patchouli stink, outa my store!)

[cunt sauce]

pesticide companies used to be chemical weapon manufacturers during the world wars. they created a product to get rid of their overstock of active nerve agents. synthetic pesticides would actually be unnecessary if farmers practiced poly-culture methods as opposed to mono-culture methods, but the govt doesn't encourage or give any financial incentive for a farmer to go poly, as seen in agricultural subsidies given to strictly mono-cultural grows of raw material crops. its all fucked. but i think this thread is going off topic. back to illegal immigration. maybe i will make a "the joys of organic" thread one of these days ha.

[cunt sauce]

Yeah, some people here also advocate draconian laws, that allow camera's to follow you around and police to basically arrest you at a whim.

 

Funny, right?

 

Not to mention environmentalists who want to make the world green. Hey buddy weren't you pumping harmful chemicals into the ozone on the daily? Not to mention, polluting your own body?

 

Sheesh. Talk about hypocrites.

 

true, i knew someone would bust me out on that, hah!

 

i think all humans are hypocrites and that is why there are so many problems in this world. plenty of people have voiced their opinion on here about the iraqi war over oil resources, yet no one has a problem with driving 50 miles to their favorite freight layup every week. but if you are putting your graffiti to political causes (i don't, i am a hypocrite as previously stated), i think that is legit. the job of the activist is not to strive for moral purity. the job of the activist is to bring down the cause in which he finds unjust. purity doesn't change or solve anything.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Well, I do agree you do not have to walk the Earth as Jesus Christ, the fact that you should live by your standards/morals is something that I do think is important.

 

For example, as this has been provided already with the case of Al Gore. If you are running around talking about the impending doom of planet Earth, and you are doing little yourself to reduce your own effect on Earth, it just seems to me at least, that you can't be taken seriously.

 

With that being said, of course we are all hypocrites in one way or another.

 

I just couldn't avoid throwing a jab at that post Sauce. Sry.

[nsmbfan]

IMMIGRATION PROBLEM SOLUTION:

 

Make all illegals immediately drafted into war. Round em up, give them the opportunity to fight for U.S.A. for no less than 4 years active duty, then allow their immediate family, mothers and fathers included, to become American Citizens (if they survive the war, if not you just get a free giftcard to Starbucks).

 

This will make America's standing Army the greatest in numbers. The Central American illegal immigrants look JUST LIKE the people in the middle east, they'd blend in well (natural camouflage). We could send them in as the first wave battalion. Those who remain win citizenship. Like thunderdome.

 

If they choose not to take the deal, we administer a nerve agent to temporarily sedate them while we implant RFID chips into the backs of their skulls and send em back across the border. They wake up with a headache in their own country wondering what happened. If they try to come back, I got that covered; we can have drones patrolling our borders that seek out the RFID chips an destroy the target once they breach our perimeter. This eliminates the human element of border patrol, and we can save money in that area as well.

 

We've tried to be nice, now lets get down to business.

 

ps: fuck a wall

[cunt sauce]

Well, I do agree you do not have to walk the Earth as Jesus Christ, the fact that you should live by your standards/morals is something that I do think is important.

 

For example, as this has been provided already with the case of Al Gore. If you are running around talking about the impending doom of planet Earth, and you are doing little yourself to reduce your own effect on Earth, it just seems to me at least, that you can't be taken seriously.

 

With that being said, of course we are all hypocrites in one way or another.

 

I just couldn't avoid throwing a jab at that post Sauce. Sry.

 

Don't apologize it was well deserved hah.

 

What I am trying to say when i make my "moral purity argument" is that if someone like Al Gore lived a self sustaining life in the woods like the una-bomber, it wouldn't stop the destruction of our natural world by everyone else. He is reaching millions with his message. He is trying to change things on an industrial level. Calling him out would be like busting out an Anti-Deforestation activist for using a cardboard picket sign. It is true that Gore is extremely wasteful with his household utilities use and he has actually cut down on that since his public humiliation (I would like to see him cut down even more). But to attack him for traveling the world spreading his message isn't fair and does not refute the factual evidence he provides. Because I throw my cigarette butts on the sidewalk does that mean when I say "littering is destructive to the environment" I am full of shit?

 

Anyways unless you have more to say, i think we've had enough enviro talk and need more Illegal Immigration talk. I went to a Cinco de Mayo party last night "long live la puebla" and got into a heated argument with people about Mexican immigration. Even with a Texican (ancestors were mexican until borders were changed). Anyways I kept trying to explain the ROOT of the problem but kept getting shouted over with people bitching about the symptoms of the problem. I think alcohol may have contributed to the lack of intelligent discussion.

[nsmbfan]

cunt sauce my post was very insightful. next time you go to leave a comment in a neg don't be so broad. tell me what you really think.

 

 

clearly we cannot forceably remove people, that'd be wrong. so would shooting them at the border.

 

but the root of my argument was that all able bodied males currently seeking citizenship should enlist into the armed forces and serve the country they want to live in. it makes perfect sense, and currently it does happen - but with a lot more red tape involved.

 

it's called compromise. take lemons and make some fucking lemonade. you can call me racist or ignorant, i don't care. it's people like you that are all theory and no action.

[angelofdeath]

What I am trying to say when i make my "moral purity argument" is that if someone like Al Gore lived a self sustaining life in the woods like the una-bomber, it wouldn't stop the destruction of our natural world by everyone else. He is reaching millions with his message. He is trying to change things on an industrial level. Calling him out would be like busting out an Anti-Deforestation activist for using a cardboard picket sign. It is true that Gore is extremely wasteful with his household utilities use and he has actually cut down on that since his public humiliation (I would like to see him cut down even more). But to attack him for traveling the world spreading his message isn't fair and does not refute the factual evidence he provides. Because I throw my cigarette butts on the sidewalk does that mean when I say "littering is destructive to the environment" I am full of shit?

 

one cannot take someone seriously if they do not practice what they preach atleast as much as humanely possible. you cannot be talking about the evils of 'captalism' or 'the stock market' or using class warfare arguments like the left does, yet be millionaires or billionaires, riding around in jets, and doing the exact opposite of what you are forcing everyone else to do through your government policies.

 

could we all take ron paul as seriously if he lived a lavish lifestyle, was in debt up to his eye balls and 'spent money like a drunken sailor'' instead of living frugally?

 

the only thing al gore is doing is promoting an idiotic anti human agenda attempting to run the lives of the entire world all the while engaging in the very activity he is denouncing.

 

sorry man, if you cant even at least partially practice what you preach, you are an idiot and should simply be brushed off into the rubbish can. no need to try these 'greater good' arguments on anyone. the left's policies are so erroneous and hideous that they cant even live how they want everyone else to. even the soviet commisaar's enjoyed capitalism and their country estates.

 

what ever happened to leading by example?

 

speaking of the anti 'de-forestation' movement...this reminds me of one of my old favorite (musically) bands... earth crisis. these guys devoted their entire career demonizing capitalism and any sort of industrial activity, had fans beat up people wearing leather, yet mass produced CD's on paper probably printed on paper made from trees in a rain forest. you think this is all well and good?

you think its fine that michael moore can make movies about how the stock market is evil YET INVEST IN THE STOCK MARKET? or that unions are the greatest thing on earth yet dont have your employees unionized? or pelosi in her vineyards or restaurants refusing to allow unions to form, yet that is what they promote in congress? or the famous noam chomsky... the bitter opponent of property rights that sets up a TRUST!!!! i mean... come the fuck on.

 

Anyways unless you have more to say, i think we've had enough enviro talk and need more Illegal Immigration talk.

 

fair enough.

 

quick synopsis on my views on the arizona law.

i support arizona's sovereignty and their right to establish this law as a state... but im not a fan of it but.....just as a critique of the law, i am 100% against anyone being forced to prove a negative on the spot to any authorities during a police contact. imagine having to prove that you own the shoes on your feet or the pants you are wearing and if you cant prove it you go to jail? whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

from what i gather, RAS is needed to make the LE agent ask the person for his papers. my prediction is that soon enough anyone that looks 'brown' will be reasonable suspicion enough to detain and require ID documents and essentially harass people based on the way the look.

 

judge napolitano has said that law suits from when arizona starts enforcing this law could be sufficient enough to bankrupt the state

there was a case right around the time the law passed where an american citizen was asked for his papers, in stasi fashion, which he provided his commercial drivers license and ss card. not sufficient evidence to prove him 'legal'

 

looks like arizonians might have to carry birth certificate, school id cards, drivers licenses, social security cards, etc all just to prove to the authorities that they are citizens.

[SukiSukiNow]

This dosn't do shit for Arizona just like every other immigration act

We don't want the guys who are trying to make a living out we want the murderers rapists and other bullshit out

Another step backward.

 

but only mexicans are murderers and rapists? so the focus should have been on getting criminals and not mexicans.