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lord_casek

I think I heard a shot

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That is some fucked up shit. HOW IN THE HELL IS AN ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTER AN ENEMY OF THE UNITED STATES

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That is some fucked up shit. HOW IN THE HELL IS AN ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTER AN ENEMY OF THE UNITED STATES

 

 

didn't you hear them? that camera was an rpg.

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i thought this was very interesting:

 

TL;DR: I'm military and been right over that neighborhood at a different time; the video may be disturbing but doesn't strike me as unjustifiable. The coverup is what we should save our real vitriol for. I know some of you will immediately dismiss this as you view everyone in the military as inherently evil. I find that silly. (There are also people who think I can do no wrong because I AM and I find that dangerous). Give it a read anyway.

War is an ugly, atrocious action. Bad things happen every day; good things only rarely. It's a waste of money, time, potential, and especially lives. What's in this video is distasteful to say the least, but it's also intentionally inflammatory (presumably so WL gets more clicks, and we all obliged them). This video is from a period of increasing, and increasingly violent, action by insurgents. Mortar and rocket attacks, IEDs/EFPs, executions in the most grotesque manner, were all becoming the norm.

The men you hear are reacting to stress from a variety of sources: lack of sleep because of indirect fire attacks, stress from friends being WIA/KIA, stress from feeling little support from the Iraqis at that time, from being away from home and family. In all that stress, they still behaved according to the rules of engagement. They positively identified small arms (which are a threat) and misidentified an RPG. Had I not known, I would also have called out RPG. It unfortunately looks like it, and that was amplified by the pose he took. WL added in captions to let you know there were cameras to amplify outrage, but having flown around Baghdad in helos everything looks like a threat after they shoot at you.

Shooting the van was also justifiable because the "insurgents" were going to collect their wounded and weapons. Clearly the aircrew were wrong, but not unjustifiably and probably only in hindsight. They followed the ROEs, received approval to fire, and did so efficiently. Further, the initial statements that said they were engaged with a violent group also does not strike me as "cover up." If you've ever been involved with an emergency situation you know the first reports out are usually wrong. The later reports, however, I find repugnant. Events like this make me want to stay in the military because I don't want the bastards trying to cover up what was a horrific mistake thinking I won't be right over their shoulder next time.

I have found virtually all the military members I was with in Iraq serious, professional (at least on duty!), and genuinely concerned for civilians. You saw the soldiers running out with the kids. Genuine concern there, from fathers, older brothers, cousins that know kids like that back home. The amount of work we did to keep civilians out of harms way was breathtaking sometimes because it put us in much more vulnerable situations. I'm good with that. I signed up, they didn't. As for the attitude and demeanor of the aircrew, yep, it's stomach-turning. I did see this on occasion, and it's not something I've seen many redditors say they teach you in training. It's a defense mechanism to deal with the privations and violence you see. Dehumanizing the enemy makes it easier to deal with it. If you've never read or seen a synopsis of On Killing you absolutely should. That's why running over a body was seemingly funny. I'm ashamed to say I've had similar gut reactions of really terrible things, and like those guys I feel awful about it when I reflect.

This post isn't to justify the killings, but hopefully to tone down some of the hyperbole. It's a terrible tragedy; it's a waste; I'd love to see us out of Iraq as soon as feasible. It's not a war crime. It's not 18-year-old kids just wanting to kill people for the fun of it. Now, let's all be pissed together that it took this long to get the real story out. OK, too long of a ramble but I needed to get it off my chest. Ask away if you have questions; I'll tell you what I can.

 

and the best response i saw to this, which I totally agree with:

 

We can debate the specifics of this video forever, but it all comes back to one question.

Who will be held responsible for the hundreds of thousands of innocent lives that have been lost over the past ten years?

You can say "War is Hell", and I would agree with you.

But this is not a war. This is an occupation. The American people supported this war because they were lied to. There were no WMDs, and there were no terrorists. There was no link between Iraq and 9/11.

Our presence in the country created the insurgency. We destabilized the country, we disbanded the military (which pleaded with ORHA to be allowed to cooperate with coalition forces with regards to maintaining Iraqi security), we created the void that allowed militant Islamic factions to gain a foothold, we failed to provide adequate infrastructure for the millions of Iraqis who had no food, clean water, or jobs after we bombarded Baghdad/Fallujah and destroyed their way of life and killed their families, and now we have a lot of angry, armed people who have nothing to lose and desperately want revenge.

I see a lot of apologizing for these soldiers actions, and yet I see very lttle empathy for the poor Iraqis who've had their lives and dreams crushed.

And for what? If not to procure WMDs from a dictator (who we armed and financed), if not for revenge for 9/11 (there was no link), if not to hunt down terrorists (there were none), for what?

Strategic power over energy reserves (See: Haliburton's record profits in Iraq)? How about establishing the dominant military presence in the middle east (See: our base the size of Vatican City)?

I see no moral justification for this invasion, which has been terribly mismanaged and executed. This event is simply a microcosm for what has been going on every day for the past 10 years; innocent people are dying by the hands of American soldiers who have been terribly misguided by the powers that be.

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Just try to imagine being an Iraqi citizen at this point.

 

Both of those replies are on point. I'd have to agree more with the second one though.

 

These soldiers shouldn't have even been in Iraq to make these "mistakes".

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Yeah you grow used to hearing about this kind of thing happening in Iraq or Afghanistan. To seriously ponder how you would feel if this happened in your own city helps you to understand why there are an ever increasing number of suicide bombers and IEDs going off over there.

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Ill leave this here too.

 

Man this is total bullshit.

 

How can a helicopter orbiting kilometers over head, using a black and white camera, NOT tell that the slings over those guys shoulders were cameras!? Lets forget the fact that they were walking with a group of men with RPG's and AK's, that part can looked over TOTALLY. And then the Apache mows everyone in the group down?! What is that shit?! It could have easily used it 30mm cannon to snipe only the guys with the weapons.\

 

BABY KILLERS!

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Ill leave this here too.

 

Man this is total bullshit.

 

How can a helicopter orbiting kilometers over head, using a black and white camera, NOT tell that the slings over those guys shoulders were cameras!? Lets forget the fact that they were walking with a group of men with RPG's and AK's, that part can looked over TOTALLY. And then the Apache mows everyone in the group down?! What is that shit?! It could have easily used it 30mm cannon to snipe only the guys with the weapons.\

 

BABY KILLERS!

 

Everyone in Iraq owns a gun. That's how the ME works. Not rpg's, mind you.....

 

Also: Let's go around killing ambulances picking up bodies. Woohoo!

 

Roger that, bearclaw. This is eagle fart. Over.

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Whilst we always need to be critically evaluating our efforts when so much is at stake, and this is a valuable exercise in that, let us also keep in mind that it is also very easy and comforting for us to view this behaviour in hindsight with information the pilot and gunner did not have at the time and when we don't know any of the people on the ground that were being shot at whilst they were filming this.

 

How many people here would have been able to identify the camera and children for what they were without it being pointed out?

 

 

 

 

I also agree, the cover up is the issue here.

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Whilst we always need to be critically evaluating our efforts when so much is at stake, and this is a valuable exercise in that, let us also keep in mind that it is also very easy and comforting for us to view this behaviour in hindsight with information the pilot and gunner did not have at the time and when we don't know any of the people on the ground that were being shot at whilst they were filming this.

 

How many people here would have been able to identify the camera and children for what they were without it being pointed out?

 

 

 

 

I also agree, the cover up is the issue here.

 

 

At the end of the video they are joking about the kids in the van.

 

The rest I agree with half heartedly.

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Whilst we always need to be critically evaluating our efforts when so much is at stake, and this is a valuable exercise in that, let us also keep in mind that it is also very easy and comforting for us to view this behaviour in hindsight with information the pilot and gunner did not have at the time and when we don't know any of the people on the ground that were being shot at whilst they were filming this.

 

How many people here would have been able to identify the camera and children for what they were without it being pointed out?

 

 

 

 

I also agree, the cover up is the issue here.

 

the kids were clearly visible in the van, the minute i saw the van i saw the kids... this wasn't even hard to notice.

 

i don't put the soldiers at fault here, i put the American people at fault, and our government and our elected officials. as cowardly and disgusted i am by the behaviour of these soldiers i just feel sorry for them, they murdered innocent people and they are desensitized to taking peoples lives. i'm sure this video will weigh in on their conscious as they grow older, and for that i hope they can overcome their grief if they even have any.

 

the point here is, these wars are the same as any other war. not only that but these wars are illegal under the constitution, and we are not only putting American's lives at risk but killing innocent people for reasons that do not benefit the average America, and only put our nation in further danger around the world. The Pentagon today said that wikileaks is a threat to national security, and this is absolutely true because this video will further encourage those around the world who actually do hate us, and for that reason i don't know if this video should ever have been released. it's a sad thought also that this is nothing compared to the horrors of war that aren't recorded and that which we don't know.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIvGhYQVPoQ&feature=player_embedded#

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Everyone in Iraq owns a gun. That's how the ME works. Not rpg's, mind you.....

 

Also: Let's go around killing ambulances picking up bodies. Woohoo!

 

Roger that, bearclaw. This is eagle fart. Over.

 

You can actually see the guy holding an RPG.

 

2rz2uiw.jpg

 

If you hang out with dumb asses planning on shooting at the Military, dont be surprised when you get shot at. Every reporter goes out there knowing that they could be killed. The Arab reporters did it in this video, and plenty of reporters from the other news agencies do it when they inbed with coalition forces. You dont see people making websites for reporters getting blown out of humvees by IED's then going "LOL WUT BUT DEY DIDNT N E THING."

 

And thats a van. Sorry son, there isnt a crescent moon stamped to the side of that thing.Like the guy said, dont bring your kids into a battle. Those guys just watched everyone get pelted by a helicopter so far away they couldnt even see it and their first thought was "HEY LET ME DRIVE MY KIDS OVER THERE." The pilots had the correct presumptions that these were just some other insurgents trying to drag what they thought were his buddy to the VAN.

 

Or we could turn this toward the argument that, even if they did see the cameras, I doubt they would say 'OH SHIT REUTERS REPORTERS!" Those guys with RPG's and AK's love a good propaganda film, and Im sure the pilots would have just jumped to the conclusion that these were just douche bags trying to make sweet propaganda video/photo shoot to put on Jihad.com

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Without entering in to right, wrong, morals and justifications, on a tactical level you have to look at it this way: what if the military does have rules of engagement that say enemy cannot be engaged if there are journalists amongst them?

 

The TV camera would then be a potent weapon for more than one reason and every 5th insurgent would be carrying one allowing his associates to fight with impunity.

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Without entering in to right, wrong, morals and justifications, on a tactical level you have to look at it this way: what if the military does have rules of engagement that say enemy cannot be engaged if there are journalists amongst them?

 

The TV camera would then be a potent weapon for more than one reason and every 5th insurgent would be carrying one allowing his associates to fight with impunity.

 

You're right. Fuck those brown people. GO TEAM USA!

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Camera w/ zoom lense....reporters...go figure

Mg42i.jpg

 

Which is why you dont hang out with the guys carrying RPG's. Holding a camera in your hand doesnt make you bullet proof if you're standing next to the guy with RPG.

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Which is why you dont hang out with the guys carrying RPG's. Holding a camera in your hand doesnt make you bullet proof if you're standing next to the guy with RPG.

 

It's also quite clear that it is not an rpg. It's also clear that the reporter is holding a video camera and not an rpg.

 

It's very hard to justify this in my mind.

 

Democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9_S23kqQE4

 

Freedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZX1odzHdAo&feature=related

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You're right. Fuck those brown people. GO TEAM USA!

 

Well, if that's what you're going to go with in response to a simple objective take on a particular perspective I'd suggest that this conversation and your approach to it has degraded past the point of me involving myself any further.

 

You and Zig can hang out and get all indignant and moralistic together, have fun. ;)

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It's also quite clear that it is not an rpg. It's also clear that the reporter is holding a video camera and not an rpg.

 

It's very hard to justify this in my mind.

 

Democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9_S23kqQE4

 

Freedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZX1odzHdAo&feature=related

 

Did I miss something? I see 2 reporters walk ahead to the street corner, while a man holding an AK, and another with an RPG stand behind them. If you go to the part in my screen shot, you can actually see the guy put the base of the RPG on the ground and lean against it.

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Did I miss something? I see 2 reporters walk ahead to the street corner, while a man holding an AK, and another with an RPG stand behind them. If you go to the part in my screen shot, you can actually see the guy put the base of the RPG on the ground and lean against it.

 

 

I'm a little doubtful but not above taking another look. Gonna see if I can process the video later and pull out details.

 

The only reason I argue about this is because of all the fucked up videos that have made their way to the public. Some really messed up people fighting for our side. Laughing about blowing kids up, stomping on kids nuts, sniping civilians....man, rules of engagement....

 

I know you like to play devils advocate a lot. Nothing bad about that. I'm sure you have seen

the videos I have.

 

Just seems pointless now. Why are we even over there?

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Some really messed up people fighting for our side. Laughing about blowing kids up, stomping on kids nuts, sniping civilians....man, rules of engagement....

 

 

There are a lot of brave men and women over there, like many have said.

 

I have met a lot of men who aren't fit to open a pickle jar without proper guidance.

 

There are people over there who are really fucked up and have no moral code to go by. Never have had one. They're the same people who are here in the united states who have a regular 9-5 job. These people are given guns and the hellish amount of stress turns them into an animal.

 

It's not the same military that our parents or grandparents joined. It's a whole different ballgame.

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There are a lot of brave men and women over there, like many have said.

 

I have met a lot of men who aren't fit to open a pickle jar without proper guidance.

 

There are people over there who are really fucked up and have no moral code to go by. Never have had one. They're the same people who are here in the united states who have a regular 9-5 job. These people are given guns and the hellish amount of stress turns them into an animal.

 

It's not the same military that our parents or grandparents joined. It's a whole different ballgame.

 

 

I agree. Lots of good people with good intentions in the service. I hold the utmost respect for them. Seeing the video game generation being put into combat is scary.

 

/head shot

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I just watched this and it is disgusting, even if they had a legitimate reason to fire on these people, which I don't believe they did, the soldiers are fucking scumbags laughing about killing these innocent people, so what if they have AK47s on them, their country is being illegally ivaded by a foreign force, they are just defending themselves, something that surely all you constitutiionists should be holding them up as exeplary members of society.

 

While I have respect for a few soldiers because I am sure they are there for the right reasons, I have never met (in person) a member of the military that I would trust with a paper aeroplane let alone an apache attack helicopter, I recently had a friend that joined the marines here in the UK, needless to say I am no longer in contact with him because I have no respect for someone that is prepared to join the army in the current climate of fighting politically unjust and illegal wars. I just feel sorry for people who were already signed up before all this Iraq/afghanistan bullshit kicked off.

 

If the people carrying the guns had actually been engaging the helicopter they would have had a reason to fire, as it was they weren't doing anything and the people who shot at the iraqis deserve to be prosecuted for murder under criminal courts and not miltary courts.

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